A broad consensus for something so long-lasting is better than a simple majority. This item is not a matter of process only, but of confessional stability. A simple majority fails the test.
A simple majority will result primarily in irrelevance. A confession or testimony that 40% of people are not willing to accept as authoritative will not carry credibility of governance.
Reluctant acceptance may lead to greater acceptance later, or it may also lead to an acceptance of irrelevance. Bill is right on this.
You indicate you are a retired pastor, and then say you are a pastor still. Can you be both? Or do you only wish to retain the title? Or is the title only validated by an accompanying salary? Curious.
I should also point out that the different requirements for prior notification between changes to church order and changes to supplements is artificial and nonsensical. There is no significant difference between the impacts of a supplement and the impacts of a change to the church order that should require different notification procedures or considerations. They should be treated the same.
It is good to have an informal policy of a good mix of active elders in consistory, also a good mix of active deacons. While putting in new elders, always make sure that there are some experienced older elders and deacons there to lead and train the others. The new ones will have some fresh and new ideas which the older ones will appreciate, while the older ones will be able to provide a good framework and context and stability in which the new ideas can work well.
I don't think it is a bad idea for a classis to examine a candidate, provided it is done as a service to the calling church, and provided proper respect is given to the responsibility of the local church to make the final decision. In other words, it is possible that the classis will deem the candidate acceptable, but that the local church will become aware of issues that will create problems, and so will decide that the candidate has not passed the classical interview. Or vice versa, that classis will find the candidate lacking, but the calling church will find the candidate acceptable. Classis should not lord it over the responsibility of the local church to decide. It should only make stipulations that impact the interaction of the candidate with the other churches of the classis, if necessary.
I wonder if a proper understanding of delegation would include the possibility of retracting that delegation. In other words, when elders delegate the tasks of deacons to the deacons, or certain other administrative tasks to a secretary, or to a building committee or finance committee, then the authority of that delegation presumes the elders or council ability to overrule the committee or to retract the delegation. Hopefully they wouldn't do that too often, but yet their authority and responsibility implies that they could do so. The delegation of the authority does not make them less responsible for the activities that derive from that delegation, does it?
Maybe that's why we ocassionally sing, "Oh be careful little eyes what you see..."
or, "Our God is an awesome God", or "He has made the fish that swim..." "The Lord's my Shepherd..." "Onward Christian Soldiers..." 'Stand up Stand up For Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross" , "How Great Thou Art."" , and many more.
I guess that's like elders then who also don't lose their ordination when they retire? But why did you say you were retired, when you are not really?
Can a pastor or elder really retire? what does that mean? And if they really retire, meaning they do not do any pastoral activity, why would we still call them a pastor, rather than a retired pastor?
And would not a pastor strive for greater consensus than mere simple majority power rule?
Okay, I realize my questions are a bit like a shotgun. Probably some are uncomfortable as well. Maybe even rhetorical.
Back to the topic at hand:
"And would not a pastor strive for greater consensus than mere simple majority power rule? "
Perhaps it is the concentration on adopting the Belhar, that is really the shell on the turtle. It slows down the real activity, the real mission of the church by concentrating on paper and forms, wasting the time of synod and church councils, rather than devoting that time and energy to going into the world, preaching the gospel, and proclaiming and living for Christ.
On re-reading, I realized that you said that elders are not ordained for life. However, there is a practice and understanding that if you have been ordained as an elder, that a new service period will involve an installation rather than a re-ordination. So I am not totally understanding your implication.
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
A broad consensus for something so long-lasting is better than a simple majority. This item is not a matter of process only, but of confessional stability. A simple majority fails the test.
A simple majority will result primarily in irrelevance. A confession or testimony that 40% of people are not willing to accept as authoritative will not carry credibility of governance.
Reluctant acceptance may lead to greater acceptance later, or it may also lead to an acceptance of irrelevance. Bill is right on this.
You indicate you are a retired pastor, and then say you are a pastor still. Can you be both? Or do you only wish to retain the title? Or is the title only validated by an accompanying salary? Curious.
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
Ken, I think using Jesus in this way is not legitimate. Jesus had twelve
> disciples, not a single one of which was a pharisee or saducee, until the
> apostle Paul, who had to change dramatically before he could truly follow
> Jesus. If you were going to follow that example, then not a single
> seminarian or professor could be a leadership disciple of Jesus. Jesus also did not
> have any samaritans or greeks or romans as his original 12 disciples, nor
> any women. This leadership did not have any quotas, nor was it
> representative of the body of Christ. Quotas for Leadership in the church
> of Christ does not solve any injustice; leadership is about serving and
> proclaiming Christ. You could have any quota system you want, and the
> leadership could still be injust. Or, if it follows christ, it could
> proclaim justice. You should not confuse worldly ideals of color equality
> and representation with God's justice.
>
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
I should also point out that the different requirements for prior notification between changes to church order and changes to supplements is artificial and nonsensical. There is no significant difference between the impacts of a supplement and the impacts of a change to the church order that should require different notification procedures or considerations. They should be treated the same.
Posted in: Transition Planning
It is good to have an informal policy of a good mix of active elders in consistory, also a good mix of active deacons. While putting in new elders, always make sure that there are some experienced older elders and deacons there to lead and train the others. The new ones will have some fresh and new ideas which the older ones will appreciate, while the older ones will be able to provide a good framework and context and stability in which the new ideas can work well.
Posted in: How Does Synod Work?
Why nine ministers and three elders?
Posted in: Classical Exams
I don't think it is a bad idea for a classis to examine a candidate, provided it is done as a service to the calling church, and provided proper respect is given to the responsibility of the local church to make the final decision. In other words, it is possible that the classis will deem the candidate acceptable, but that the local church will become aware of issues that will create problems, and so will decide that the candidate has not passed the classical interview. Or vice versa, that classis will find the candidate lacking, but the calling church will find the candidate acceptable. Classis should not lord it over the responsibility of the local church to decide. It should only make stipulations that impact the interaction of the candidate with the other churches of the classis, if necessary.
Posted in: Does the CRC Have a Pope?
I wonder if a proper understanding of delegation would include the possibility of retracting that delegation. In other words, when elders delegate the tasks of deacons to the deacons, or certain other administrative tasks to a secretary, or to a building committee or finance committee, then the authority of that delegation presumes the elders or council ability to overrule the committee or to retract the delegation. Hopefully they wouldn't do that too often, but yet their authority and responsibility implies that they could do so. The delegation of the authority does not make them less responsible for the activities that derive from that delegation, does it?
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
You will have to explain why Jesus did not have quotas.
Posted in: The Unsung Jesus
Maybe that's why we ocassionally sing, "Oh be careful little eyes what you see..."
or, "Our God is an awesome God", or "He has made the fish that swim..." "The Lord's my Shepherd..." "Onward Christian Soldiers..." 'Stand up Stand up For Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross" , "How Great Thou Art."" , and many more.
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
I guess that's like elders then who also don't lose their ordination when they retire? But why did you say you were retired, when you are not really?
Can a pastor or elder really retire? what does that mean? And if they really retire, meaning they do not do any pastoral activity, why would we still call them a pastor, rather than a retired pastor?
And would not a pastor strive for greater consensus than mere simple majority power rule?
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
Okay, I realize my questions are a bit like a shotgun. Probably some are uncomfortable as well. Maybe even rhetorical.
Back to the topic at hand:
"And would not a pastor strive for greater consensus than mere simple majority power rule? "
Perhaps it is the concentration on adopting the Belhar, that is really the shell on the turtle. It slows down the real activity, the real mission of the church by concentrating on paper and forms, wasting the time of synod and church councils, rather than devoting that time and energy to going into the world, preaching the gospel, and proclaiming and living for Christ.
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
On re-reading, I realized that you said that elders are not ordained for life. However, there is a practice and understanding that if you have been ordained as an elder, that a new service period will involve an installation rather than a re-ordination. So I am not totally understanding your implication.