The only specific reference I could see in the church order with regard to reelecting an elder mentioned re-installation, not re-ordination. (Article 25)
Mike, I understand what you mean. Delegates are not just to take certain positions from their council or classis and hold fast to them at all costs. They should deliberate. But, if representativeness is not an issue, why not just reduce the size of synod to about 20 people, randomly selected from different parts of the country, different ethnic origins, and different ages, in order to get the different viewpoints. You seem to be saying that representativeness is not important, and then contradicting that by saying that we need a different representation. I agree with you that it is not good to have only the pastor/minister perspective, and that the elders who have primary responsibility for the governance of the church, ought to be more proportionately represented.
I've suggested before, that if you can't find an elder to chair the classis, then classis should not be held. This is dramatic, but it makes the point. Perhaps it could also be applied to Synod.
The decision for examination by classis should be left to the calling church. When a calling church can call previous employment and references they may decide that a classical exam is unecessary.
There are different types of supervision. Some is very tight and "hands-on". Other is supervision from a "distance", where much freedom is permitted and expected, and feedback is provided, both positive and negative, in a way to infer the individual responsibility of who-ever is being supervised. Sometimes more supervision is delegated, other times not. So one style does not fit every person or every situation.
Sometimes there is an expectation that every expectation be met. Other times there is an expectation of alternatives, or variety, so that not every expectation will be met. Supervision requires a degree of trust and respect, but also a way of evaluating whether the main objectives are being met. If children are to understand the confessions or doctrinal standards of the church, how will this happen, who will be responsible, and is it happening. Or if the church has a goal to reach out to the community, same thing... how will this happen, who is responsible, and is it happening. Is what is happening sufficient to achieve the goals and objectives? Is the reason for having the goal being satisfied?
There are different definitions of a job being done well. And sometimes these definitions change throughout the course of a project, a year, or an activity. Of course it is important to do a job well. But it is not just a job. It is a service, a worship, a fellowship. Merely doing the job well, based on laid-out expectations, may not serve the primary purpose of the worship, or the service or the fellowship. If that is not well understood, then the vision and the mission may be lost.
A broad consensus for something so long-lasting is better than a simple majority. This item is not a matter of process only, but of confessional stability. A simple majority fails the test.
A simple majority will result primarily in irrelevance. A confession or testimony that 40% of people are not willing to accept as authoritative will not carry credibility of governance.
Reluctant acceptance may lead to greater acceptance later, or it may also lead to an acceptance of irrelevance. Bill is right on this.
You indicate you are a retired pastor, and then say you are a pastor still. Can you be both? Or do you only wish to retain the title? Or is the title only validated by an accompanying salary? Curious.
I should also point out that the different requirements for prior notification between changes to church order and changes to supplements is artificial and nonsensical. There is no significant difference between the impacts of a supplement and the impacts of a change to the church order that should require different notification procedures or considerations. They should be treated the same.
It is good to have an informal policy of a good mix of active elders in consistory, also a good mix of active deacons. While putting in new elders, always make sure that there are some experienced older elders and deacons there to lead and train the others. The new ones will have some fresh and new ideas which the older ones will appreciate, while the older ones will be able to provide a good framework and context and stability in which the new ideas can work well.
I don't think it is a bad idea for a classis to examine a candidate, provided it is done as a service to the calling church, and provided proper respect is given to the responsibility of the local church to make the final decision. In other words, it is possible that the classis will deem the candidate acceptable, but that the local church will become aware of issues that will create problems, and so will decide that the candidate has not passed the classical interview. Or vice versa, that classis will find the candidate lacking, but the calling church will find the candidate acceptable. Classis should not lord it over the responsibility of the local church to decide. It should only make stipulations that impact the interaction of the candidate with the other churches of the classis, if necessary.
I wonder if a proper understanding of delegation would include the possibility of retracting that delegation. In other words, when elders delegate the tasks of deacons to the deacons, or certain other administrative tasks to a secretary, or to a building committee or finance committee, then the authority of that delegation presumes the elders or council ability to overrule the committee or to retract the delegation. Hopefully they wouldn't do that too often, but yet their authority and responsibility implies that they could do so. The delegation of the authority does not make them less responsible for the activities that derive from that delegation, does it?
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
The only specific reference I could see in the church order with regard to reelecting an elder mentioned re-installation, not re-ordination. (Article 25)
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
Josh Benton, you have raised a new point, and I think it is an interesting and valid point.
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
Mike, I understand what you mean. Delegates are not just to take certain positions from their council or classis and hold fast to them at all costs. They should deliberate. But, if representativeness is not an issue, why not just reduce the size of synod to about 20 people, randomly selected from different parts of the country, different ethnic origins, and different ages, in order to get the different viewpoints. You seem to be saying that representativeness is not important, and then contradicting that by saying that we need a different representation. I agree with you that it is not good to have only the pastor/minister perspective, and that the elders who have primary responsibility for the governance of the church, ought to be more proportionately represented.
I've suggested before, that if you can't find an elder to chair the classis, then classis should not be held. This is dramatic, but it makes the point. Perhaps it could also be applied to Synod.
Posted in: Classical Exams
The decision for examination by classis should be left to the calling church. When a calling church can call previous employment and references they may decide that a classical exam is unecessary.
Posted in: Supervision or Feedback
There are different types of supervision. Some is very tight and "hands-on". Other is supervision from a "distance", where much freedom is permitted and expected, and feedback is provided, both positive and negative, in a way to infer the individual responsibility of who-ever is being supervised. Sometimes more supervision is delegated, other times not. So one style does not fit every person or every situation.
Sometimes there is an expectation that every expectation be met. Other times there is an expectation of alternatives, or variety, so that not every expectation will be met. Supervision requires a degree of trust and respect, but also a way of evaluating whether the main objectives are being met. If children are to understand the confessions or doctrinal standards of the church, how will this happen, who will be responsible, and is it happening. Or if the church has a goal to reach out to the community, same thing... how will this happen, who is responsible, and is it happening. Is what is happening sufficient to achieve the goals and objectives? Is the reason for having the goal being satisfied?
There are different definitions of a job being done well. And sometimes these definitions change throughout the course of a project, a year, or an activity. Of course it is important to do a job well. But it is not just a job. It is a service, a worship, a fellowship. Merely doing the job well, based on laid-out expectations, may not serve the primary purpose of the worship, or the service or the fellowship. If that is not well understood, then the vision and the mission may be lost.
Good comments, Neil.
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
A broad consensus for something so long-lasting is better than a simple majority. This item is not a matter of process only, but of confessional stability. A simple majority fails the test.
A simple majority will result primarily in irrelevance. A confession or testimony that 40% of people are not willing to accept as authoritative will not carry credibility of governance.
Reluctant acceptance may lead to greater acceptance later, or it may also lead to an acceptance of irrelevance. Bill is right on this.
You indicate you are a retired pastor, and then say you are a pastor still. Can you be both? Or do you only wish to retain the title? Or is the title only validated by an accompanying salary? Curious.
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
Ken, I think using Jesus in this way is not legitimate. Jesus had twelve
> disciples, not a single one of which was a pharisee or saducee, until the
> apostle Paul, who had to change dramatically before he could truly follow
> Jesus. If you were going to follow that example, then not a single
> seminarian or professor could be a leadership disciple of Jesus. Jesus also did not
> have any samaritans or greeks or romans as his original 12 disciples, nor
> any women. This leadership did not have any quotas, nor was it
> representative of the body of Christ. Quotas for Leadership in the church
> of Christ does not solve any injustice; leadership is about serving and
> proclaiming Christ. You could have any quota system you want, and the
> leadership could still be injust. Or, if it follows christ, it could
> proclaim justice. You should not confuse worldly ideals of color equality
> and representation with God's justice.
>
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
I should also point out that the different requirements for prior notification between changes to church order and changes to supplements is artificial and nonsensical. There is no significant difference between the impacts of a supplement and the impacts of a change to the church order that should require different notification procedures or considerations. They should be treated the same.
Posted in: Transition Planning
It is good to have an informal policy of a good mix of active elders in consistory, also a good mix of active deacons. While putting in new elders, always make sure that there are some experienced older elders and deacons there to lead and train the others. The new ones will have some fresh and new ideas which the older ones will appreciate, while the older ones will be able to provide a good framework and context and stability in which the new ideas can work well.
Posted in: How Does Synod Work?
Why nine ministers and three elders?
Posted in: Classical Exams
I don't think it is a bad idea for a classis to examine a candidate, provided it is done as a service to the calling church, and provided proper respect is given to the responsibility of the local church to make the final decision. In other words, it is possible that the classis will deem the candidate acceptable, but that the local church will become aware of issues that will create problems, and so will decide that the candidate has not passed the classical interview. Or vice versa, that classis will find the candidate lacking, but the calling church will find the candidate acceptable. Classis should not lord it over the responsibility of the local church to decide. It should only make stipulations that impact the interaction of the candidate with the other churches of the classis, if necessary.
Posted in: Does the CRC Have a Pope?
I wonder if a proper understanding of delegation would include the possibility of retracting that delegation. In other words, when elders delegate the tasks of deacons to the deacons, or certain other administrative tasks to a secretary, or to a building committee or finance committee, then the authority of that delegation presumes the elders or council ability to overrule the committee or to retract the delegation. Hopefully they wouldn't do that too often, but yet their authority and responsibility implies that they could do so. The delegation of the authority does not make them less responsible for the activities that derive from that delegation, does it?