Steve you didn't say whether the 200 members were adults or included all the children. If it is 200 total, with about 100 adults, then you could probably expect about 25 or so to be able to serve as leaders, (elders/deacons). This might depend on the maturity of the church. Some younger churches are more mature than some older churches... Anyway, if you have six elders, they could rotate every four years and you would be okay. Occasionally a new elder would come in, and an older elder would pass away, or would simply be a "retired" elder, helping only on specific occasions when requested.
The twelfth apostle to replace Judas was elected, but it seems other elders were appointed, although scripture does not indicate what methods were used to appoint them.
Training happens partly at congregational meetings, where procedures and leadership are demonstrated. Then it happens also at the initial consistory meetings. But the real training for the spiritual leadership, must be a lifelong thing, starting while children are learning about scripture and participating in a relationship with their Lord and Saviour. It is then that they learn about caring for others, initiating projects that build up the community of faith, as it builds up their family in their christian response. The training should occur in sunday school, catechism classes and boys and girls clubs, where they learn about leadership and responsibility and learn about the significance of the practices of their church, and about the various aspects of worship.
The building of relationships also ought to occur before, perhaps long before an individual is appointed as a leader/elder. Then the responsibility of eldership will naturally outflow from the previous roles and relationships.
Sometimes people give legal consent when they shouldn't be giving consent. It is all nice to figure out what the government says about consent, but what does scripture say about consent. Is it okay to give consent to fornication? to pre-marital sex? To pornography? At any age? I'm amused by those stores that advertise "adult" videos, which means not just restricted, but actual porn. A more accurate label would be "immature adult" videos.
Too much preocuppation with things like the laws of consent, when you are speaking in the context of the body of Christ, means that you will treat the laws of consent with more authority than they deserve. Rather than becoming restrictive, these laws become permissive, allowing young unmarried girls and boys to consent to stuff even though Christ would want them not to consent to it.
We are not unplugged here. But we have taken a similar step on a different issue. We have disconnected our TV from any and all channels. We use it only for videos, mostly DVDs. It changes our family environment by making TV a family event, constrained by our time and decisions, rather than directing our lives. And since about 90% of TV is deleterious for children, and not much better for adults, it removes the temptations, and gives us more time for networking, phoning, visiting, learning, and being productive. The news is available on the internet, whenever you want it.
Jesus said, let the little children come to me. If you do not become as these little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We often take these statements too lightly, and pass them off as fluff, when they are actually at the heart of the gospel.
In our church, we spend the first fifty minutes having Sunday school. Everyone is involved, from small children to adults. Adults who are not teaching can attend an adult bible study, while some simply drink coffee and fellowship. Then, after a ten minute break, we have a song service, maybe 3 or 4 songs, and then a special story for the children, which the adults also get to listen to. About ten or 14 kids go to the front to listen, answer questions, and suggest kids songs to sing. Another 2 or 3 kids songs then are sung, usually from memory.
Then the regular service starts, at which all children are welcome to stay, but a few go to nursery. Particularly infants. Making the worship service for children is important, but also the entire environment. We have a playground outside also, which gets used in summer after church, and a foosball game in one of the nurseries, which kids get to play while the adults have coffee after church. Anyway, just some ideas for paying attention to what Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them."
Imagine if all pastors had their lives entirely together. Would this be success. Saying that if pastors have problems that this is a failure rate, points to the essence of the problem. Because if all pastors were pathetic, and had nothing but problems, but yet the church was growing and people were worshipping God in greater and new ways, then it would not be failure. God works through our weaknesses, through our trials and tribulations, which increase patience, perseverance, hope. As scripture says.
Ken, although you may feel you are less than whole, you should realize that everyone is actually less than whole. Everyone struggles with something, whether hidden illness, insecurities, trials, past hurts. Only Christ can make us whole.
But your perspective will be used by God to enrich others, and to help others see themselves more clearly.
Every Sunday, well, many Sundays, I have a friend sit beside me in church who has down's syndrome. He is a young man past his teens, and I wonder what goes through his mind. His patience and perseverence in trying to follow along in the singing sends me, in my great impatience, a good message. He is less than whole, and yet happier often than many who appear to be "perfect". While we yearn to be the way God originally created us to be, still we can rejoice that God uses us and our imperfections still to glorify himself in so many unforseen ways.
I agree Karl, that deacons can provide feedback to the preachers, pastors, elders, and cleaning staff, although it should be done in a charitable, positive, constructive and loving way. Perhaps the way to start this is for deacons themselves also to ask for feedback from the congregation, and from elders and pastors. This will help them to understand how to give feedback to others, and it may encourage others also to ask for feedback. It may also be helpful to start with deacons giving feedback to each other, and then go on from there.
Karl, your statement, "too many pastors are dying for a lack of feedback" hit me when I read it the second time. I find it a shame that lack of feedback should cause preachers to die since we should be working for the Lord, not for approval of men. But on the other hand, I understand that a lack of response really makes you wonder about the impact of what you are doing, and whether it is appreciated or not. I suggest that if preachers or elders or deacons want feedback, that they not be too shy to ask for it. That they ask for it in a way that is meaningful to them. That they ask specific questions. They may not always get the answers they expect, nor as complete as they would like, but it will be better than silence or absence of reaction. I must admit however, that I really enjoy the unsolicited comments the most.
This reminded me of a song we often sing at home and at church, called, "Fill up my Cup. Let it overflow with love." which also includes a variation of "Amazing Grace" And that song reminds me of David's Psalm 23, which says, my cup over flows. Being full of bread and fish and drink, being content, even stuffed, is what God also gives us in a spiritual sense, if we are just willing to ask for it, and to receive it.
Stan and Monica, I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I tend towards letting parents decide on whether their children ought to participate, and that some level of understanding and committment makes sense. If a child is totally rebellious towards God, then parents ought to have the wisdom to discourage or forbid their child to participate, but otherwise a parent ought to give permission if the child loves the Lord. Whether an infant who cannot yet talk or understand should participate should be left up to parents, and charity to all in this decision.
The scripture passage about discerning the body of Christ is sometimes better grasped by young children, than it is by some older confessing members, since it really means to care about the entire body of Christ, the people of God. Some older confessing members seem to care more about themselves and their own family, than they do about the family of God, and about Jesus himself, who died for us, and expects obedience from us, and consideration and respect for one another, regardless of wealth, position, and age.
The implications of this for profession of faith is that profession of faith time is usually not when one joins the body of Christ. Our present practice of formal Profession of faith is not the initial or perhaps not even the most significant profession of one's faith. Perhaps it ought to be seen as a profession of membership, an agreement to certain confessions, to a certain church body, and to scriptural moral behaviours and lifestyle. It also puts one under a special potential for discipline under membership, as compared to a general christian admonition to and from other christians which exists outside of formal "membership". I am thinking on paper here a bit, as a way of opening this thought more fully.
I have thought for some time that the way we do profession of faith is very deadening. It ought to be a time of sharing and rejoicing, but instead it is often a ritual, form-reading, and a time of inhibition, reducing our profession to something read by someone else who is not making the profession. Often there is doubt about the full committment of those making the profession, due to the lack of involvement, as well as the ritualistic ceremonialism of the event. Why not have the new members agree to the profession in the council room, after discussion, and then make a real verbal, extended, detailed committment in front of the congregation?
In some cases, we could also have people make a witness to the church prior to their being ready to become formal papered members. Those who have some minor disagreement with confessions of faith, or who are heavily struggling with unchristian lifestyles, could still make a profession of faith of where they are at, sharing their joy in Christ and progress in life with the body of christ in church. Then the membership profession would not become the only possible testimony by default, and perhaps it would be taken more seriously. Just thinking here.
Bonnie, don't you think that many cases, maybe most, are the result of men abusing women? using them and not supporting them? And women permitting the abuse? (Sex without committment is abuse.) And then pushing the abortion on the woman... isn't that also a form of abuse? And what about the abuse of the fetus, the unborn, the new life? Is this not also violence?
Posted in: Why be an Elder? In Response to Wendy
Steve you didn't say whether the 200 members were adults or included all the children. If it is 200 total, with about 100 adults, then you could probably expect about 25 or so to be able to serve as leaders, (elders/deacons). This might depend on the maturity of the church. Some younger churches are more mature than some older churches... Anyway, if you have six elders, they could rotate every four years and you would be okay. Occasionally a new elder would come in, and an older elder would pass away, or would simply be a "retired" elder, helping only on specific occasions when requested.
The twelfth apostle to replace Judas was elected, but it seems other elders were appointed, although scripture does not indicate what methods were used to appoint them.
Training happens partly at congregational meetings, where procedures and leadership are demonstrated. Then it happens also at the initial consistory meetings. But the real training for the spiritual leadership, must be a lifelong thing, starting while children are learning about scripture and participating in a relationship with their Lord and Saviour. It is then that they learn about caring for others, initiating projects that build up the community of faith, as it builds up their family in their christian response. The training should occur in sunday school, catechism classes and boys and girls clubs, where they learn about leadership and responsibility and learn about the significance of the practices of their church, and about the various aspects of worship.
The building of relationships also ought to occur before, perhaps long before an individual is appointed as a leader/elder. Then the responsibility of eldership will naturally outflow from the previous roles and relationships.
Posted in: Con-cent: When Your Consent Isn't Worth a Penny
Sometimes people give legal consent when they shouldn't be giving consent. It is all nice to figure out what the government says about consent, but what does scripture say about consent. Is it okay to give consent to fornication? to pre-marital sex? To pornography? At any age? I'm amused by those stores that advertise "adult" videos, which means not just restricted, but actual porn. A more accurate label would be "immature adult" videos.
Too much preocuppation with things like the laws of consent, when you are speaking in the context of the body of Christ, means that you will treat the laws of consent with more authority than they deserve. Rather than becoming restrictive, these laws become permissive, allowing young unmarried girls and boys to consent to stuff even though Christ would want them not to consent to it.
Posted in: A Bit More on NOT Tweeting
We are not unplugged here. But we have taken a similar step on a different issue. We have disconnected our TV from any and all channels. We use it only for videos, mostly DVDs. It changes our family environment by making TV a family event, constrained by our time and decisions, rather than directing our lives. And since about 90% of TV is deleterious for children, and not much better for adults, it removes the temptations, and gives us more time for networking, phoning, visiting, learning, and being productive. The news is available on the internet, whenever you want it.
JOhn
Posted in: Snapshots of a Child-Friendly Church
Jesus said, let the little children come to me. If you do not become as these little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We often take these statements too lightly, and pass them off as fluff, when they are actually at the heart of the gospel.
In our church, we spend the first fifty minutes having Sunday school. Everyone is involved, from small children to adults. Adults who are not teaching can attend an adult bible study, while some simply drink coffee and fellowship. Then, after a ten minute break, we have a song service, maybe 3 or 4 songs, and then a special story for the children, which the adults also get to listen to. About ten or 14 kids go to the front to listen, answer questions, and suggest kids songs to sing. Another 2 or 3 kids songs then are sung, usually from memory.
Then the regular service starts, at which all children are welcome to stay, but a few go to nursery. Particularly infants. Making the worship service for children is important, but also the entire environment. We have a playground outside also, which gets used in summer after church, and a foosball game in one of the nurseries, which kids get to play while the adults have coffee after church. Anyway, just some ideas for paying attention to what Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them."
Posted in: How a Consumer Culture Threatens to Destroy Pastors
Imagine if all pastors had their lives entirely together. Would this be success. Saying that if pastors have problems that this is a failure rate, points to the essence of the problem. Because if all pastors were pathetic, and had nothing but problems, but yet the church was growing and people were worshipping God in greater and new ways, then it would not be failure. God works through our weaknesses, through our trials and tribulations, which increase patience, perseverance, hope. As scripture says.
Posted in: Where Is Our Empathy?
Ken, although you may feel you are less than whole, you should realize that everyone is actually less than whole. Everyone struggles with something, whether hidden illness, insecurities, trials, past hurts. Only Christ can make us whole.
But your perspective will be used by God to enrich others, and to help others see themselves more clearly.
Every Sunday, well, many Sundays, I have a friend sit beside me in church who has down's syndrome. He is a young man past his teens, and I wonder what goes through his mind. His patience and perseverence in trying to follow along in the singing sends me, in my great impatience, a good message. He is less than whole, and yet happier often than many who appear to be "perfect". While we yearn to be the way God originally created us to be, still we can rejoice that God uses us and our imperfections still to glorify himself in so many unforseen ways.
God bless you.
John Z
Posted in: If You're Here...
Okay, I just heard something about article 7. What happened there, and how many people knew about it, and how did that slip through the radar?
Posted in: Feedback to Pastors
I agree Karl, that deacons can provide feedback to the preachers, pastors, elders, and cleaning staff, although it should be done in a charitable, positive, constructive and loving way. Perhaps the way to start this is for deacons themselves also to ask for feedback from the congregation, and from elders and pastors. This will help them to understand how to give feedback to others, and it may encourage others also to ask for feedback. It may also be helpful to start with deacons giving feedback to each other, and then go on from there.
Posted in: Feedback to Pastors
Karl, your statement, "too many pastors are dying for a lack of feedback" hit me when I read it the second time. I find it a shame that lack of feedback should cause preachers to die since we should be working for the Lord, not for approval of men. But on the other hand, I understand that a lack of response really makes you wonder about the impact of what you are doing, and whether it is appreciated or not. I suggest that if preachers or elders or deacons want feedback, that they not be too shy to ask for it. That they ask for it in a way that is meaningful to them. That they ask specific questions. They may not always get the answers they expect, nor as complete as they would like, but it will be better than silence or absence of reaction. I must admit however, that I really enjoy the unsolicited comments the most.
Posted in: Unexpectedly Full
This reminded me of a song we often sing at home and at church, called, "Fill up my Cup. Let it overflow with love." which also includes a variation of "Amazing Grace" And that song reminds me of David's Psalm 23, which says, my cup over flows.
Being full of bread and fish and drink, being content, even stuffed, is what God also gives us in a spiritual sense, if we are just willing to ask for it, and to receive it.
Posted in: Invited
Stan and Monica, I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I tend towards letting parents decide on whether their children ought to participate, and that some level of understanding and committment makes sense. If a child is totally rebellious towards God, then parents ought to have the wisdom to discourage or forbid their child to participate, but otherwise a parent ought to give permission if the child loves the Lord. Whether an infant who cannot yet talk or understand should participate should be left up to parents, and charity to all in this decision.
The scripture passage about discerning the body of Christ is sometimes better grasped by young children, than it is by some older confessing members, since it really means to care about the entire body of Christ, the people of God. Some older confessing members seem to care more about themselves and their own family, than they do about the family of God, and about Jesus himself, who died for us, and expects obedience from us, and consideration and respect for one another, regardless of wealth, position, and age.
The implications of this for profession of faith is that profession of faith time is usually not when one joins the body of Christ. Our present practice of formal Profession of faith is not the initial or perhaps not even the most significant profession of one's faith. Perhaps it ought to be seen as a profession of membership, an agreement to certain confessions, to a certain church body, and to scriptural moral behaviours and lifestyle. It also puts one under a special potential for discipline under membership, as compared to a general christian admonition to and from other christians which exists outside of formal "membership". I am thinking on paper here a bit, as a way of opening this thought more fully.
I have thought for some time that the way we do profession of faith is very deadening. It ought to be a time of sharing and rejoicing, but instead it is often a ritual, form-reading, and a time of inhibition, reducing our profession to something read by someone else who is not making the profession. Often there is doubt about the full committment of those making the profession, due to the lack of involvement, as well as the ritualistic ceremonialism of the event. Why not have the new members agree to the profession in the council room, after discussion, and then make a real verbal, extended, detailed committment in front of the congregation?
In some cases, we could also have people make a witness to the church prior to their being ready to become formal papered members. Those who have some minor disagreement with confessions of faith, or who are heavily struggling with unchristian lifestyles, could still make a profession of faith of where they are at, sharing their joy in Christ and progress in life with the body of christ in church. Then the membership profession would not become the only possible testimony by default, and perhaps it would be taken more seriously. Just thinking here.
Posted in: V-Day, What Would Jesus Do?
Bonnie, don't you think that many cases, maybe most, are the result of men abusing women? using them and not supporting them? And women permitting the abuse? (Sex without committment is abuse.) And then pushing the abortion on the woman... isn't that also a form of abuse? And what about the abuse of the fetus, the unborn, the new life? Is this not also violence?