Ken, wow! You are replying to a pretty old post. But that's okay. My main point was that legal laws of consent cause major problems for Christians. Often people assume that if something is legal, it is therefore okay. Okay with God, they think. This is far from the truth. When the government suggests that the age of 14 or 16 is the legal age of consent for sex, they are contradicting the whole idea of keeping sex in marriage. Thru the legal consent idea, they also promote the idea of sex without marriage, and they promote the idea of sex for young teenagers, as long as they do it with each other.
Christians too often get blindsided by this message, and the law does not support the authority and responsibility of parents who want to protect their children, and who want to respect sex and marriage. Sex becomes like something that tastes good in a grocery store, and the children have to have it. And the law says they can buy it when they become 14 or 16. The parental ability for involvement in things like abortion, or birth control, or managing sexual activity of their young children, is often not honored at all in the school system, or by the legal system.
I don't think Beth was wrong to point it out what the law says. But it needs to be put in the right context. Nor does it deserve the priority of attention. Government standards are not always biblical, christian standards, and we need to be aware of that.
Steve you didn't say whether the 200 members were adults or included all the children. If it is 200 total, with about 100 adults, then you could probably expect about 25 or so to be able to serve as leaders, (elders/deacons). This might depend on the maturity of the church. Some younger churches are more mature than some older churches... Anyway, if you have six elders, they could rotate every four years and you would be okay. Occasionally a new elder would come in, and an older elder would pass away, or would simply be a "retired" elder, helping only on specific occasions when requested.
The twelfth apostle to replace Judas was elected, but it seems other elders were appointed, although scripture does not indicate what methods were used to appoint them.
Training happens partly at congregational meetings, where procedures and leadership are demonstrated. Then it happens also at the initial consistory meetings. But the real training for the spiritual leadership, must be a lifelong thing, starting while children are learning about scripture and participating in a relationship with their Lord and Saviour. It is then that they learn about caring for others, initiating projects that build up the community of faith, as it builds up their family in their christian response. The training should occur in sunday school, catechism classes and boys and girls clubs, where they learn about leadership and responsibility and learn about the significance of the practices of their church, and about the various aspects of worship.
The building of relationships also ought to occur before, perhaps long before an individual is appointed as a leader/elder. Then the responsibility of eldership will naturally outflow from the previous roles and relationships.
Jesus said, let the little children come to me. If you do not become as these little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We often take these statements too lightly, and pass them off as fluff, when they are actually at the heart of the gospel.
In our church, we spend the first fifty minutes having Sunday school. Everyone is involved, from small children to adults. Adults who are not teaching can attend an adult bible study, while some simply drink coffee and fellowship. Then, after a ten minute break, we have a song service, maybe 3 or 4 songs, and then a special story for the children, which the adults also get to listen to. About ten or 14 kids go to the front to listen, answer questions, and suggest kids songs to sing. Another 2 or 3 kids songs then are sung, usually from memory.
Then the regular service starts, at which all children are welcome to stay, but a few go to nursery. Particularly infants. Making the worship service for children is important, but also the entire environment. We have a playground outside also, which gets used in summer after church, and a foosball game in one of the nurseries, which kids get to play while the adults have coffee after church. Anyway, just some ideas for paying attention to what Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them."
Imagine if all pastors had their lives entirely together. Would this be success. Saying that if pastors have problems that this is a failure rate, points to the essence of the problem. Because if all pastors were pathetic, and had nothing but problems, but yet the church was growing and people were worshipping God in greater and new ways, then it would not be failure. God works through our weaknesses, through our trials and tribulations, which increase patience, perseverance, hope. As scripture says.
Ken, although you may feel you are less than whole, you should realize that everyone is actually less than whole. Everyone struggles with something, whether hidden illness, insecurities, trials, past hurts. Only Christ can make us whole.
But your perspective will be used by God to enrich others, and to help others see themselves more clearly.
Every Sunday, well, many Sundays, I have a friend sit beside me in church who has down's syndrome. He is a young man past his teens, and I wonder what goes through his mind. His patience and perseverence in trying to follow along in the singing sends me, in my great impatience, a good message. He is less than whole, and yet happier often than many who appear to be "perfect". While we yearn to be the way God originally created us to be, still we can rejoice that God uses us and our imperfections still to glorify himself in so many unforseen ways.
I agree Karl, that deacons can provide feedback to the preachers, pastors, elders, and cleaning staff, although it should be done in a charitable, positive, constructive and loving way. Perhaps the way to start this is for deacons themselves also to ask for feedback from the congregation, and from elders and pastors. This will help them to understand how to give feedback to others, and it may encourage others also to ask for feedback. It may also be helpful to start with deacons giving feedback to each other, and then go on from there.
Karl, your statement, "too many pastors are dying for a lack of feedback" hit me when I read it the second time. I find it a shame that lack of feedback should cause preachers to die since we should be working for the Lord, not for approval of men. But on the other hand, I understand that a lack of response really makes you wonder about the impact of what you are doing, and whether it is appreciated or not. I suggest that if preachers or elders or deacons want feedback, that they not be too shy to ask for it. That they ask for it in a way that is meaningful to them. That they ask specific questions. They may not always get the answers they expect, nor as complete as they would like, but it will be better than silence or absence of reaction. I must admit however, that I really enjoy the unsolicited comments the most.
This reminded me of a song we often sing at home and at church, called, "Fill up my Cup. Let it overflow with love." which also includes a variation of "Amazing Grace" And that song reminds me of David's Psalm 23, which says, my cup over flows. Being full of bread and fish and drink, being content, even stuffed, is what God also gives us in a spiritual sense, if we are just willing to ask for it, and to receive it.
Stan and Monica, I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I tend towards letting parents decide on whether their children ought to participate, and that some level of understanding and committment makes sense. If a child is totally rebellious towards God, then parents ought to have the wisdom to discourage or forbid their child to participate, but otherwise a parent ought to give permission if the child loves the Lord. Whether an infant who cannot yet talk or understand should participate should be left up to parents, and charity to all in this decision.
The scripture passage about discerning the body of Christ is sometimes better grasped by young children, than it is by some older confessing members, since it really means to care about the entire body of Christ, the people of God. Some older confessing members seem to care more about themselves and their own family, than they do about the family of God, and about Jesus himself, who died for us, and expects obedience from us, and consideration and respect for one another, regardless of wealth, position, and age.
The implications of this for profession of faith is that profession of faith time is usually not when one joins the body of Christ. Our present practice of formal Profession of faith is not the initial or perhaps not even the most significant profession of one's faith. Perhaps it ought to be seen as a profession of membership, an agreement to certain confessions, to a certain church body, and to scriptural moral behaviours and lifestyle. It also puts one under a special potential for discipline under membership, as compared to a general christian admonition to and from other christians which exists outside of formal "membership". I am thinking on paper here a bit, as a way of opening this thought more fully.
I have thought for some time that the way we do profession of faith is very deadening. It ought to be a time of sharing and rejoicing, but instead it is often a ritual, form-reading, and a time of inhibition, reducing our profession to something read by someone else who is not making the profession. Often there is doubt about the full committment of those making the profession, due to the lack of involvement, as well as the ritualistic ceremonialism of the event. Why not have the new members agree to the profession in the council room, after discussion, and then make a real verbal, extended, detailed committment in front of the congregation?
In some cases, we could also have people make a witness to the church prior to their being ready to become formal papered members. Those who have some minor disagreement with confessions of faith, or who are heavily struggling with unchristian lifestyles, could still make a profession of faith of where they are at, sharing their joy in Christ and progress in life with the body of christ in church. Then the membership profession would not become the only possible testimony by default, and perhaps it would be taken more seriously. Just thinking here.
Wow, Wendy, you are quick. Well, to answer your simple question which has so many possible situations, "someone" would have to have an identity first. And the "beater" would also have to have an identity. If it was one of my sons who did the beating of his wife or child for example (can't see that happening), then they would be in big trouble.... likely get a serious talking to by my wife with my full support, and perhaps being physically restrained or even punished by my other sons and myself, for example. Simply not acceptable. Okay... what if it is a stranger? or a friend? Do they have a "protector"? every situation requires examination of circumstances, was it once in a lifetime, or is it habitual, or somewhere in between. The woman would simply be supported; either given a place to live, or security of protection, or opportunity to prosecute, or opportunity to forgive provided true repentance (meaning no recidivism) occurs.
The same general concern for a man or boy who has been beaten. Depending on cause, severity, repetition. Given a safe place and a remedy to prevent reoccurence, which may or may not include legal action. Of course, beaters are human beings as well, perhaps sometimes also victims of abuse, and God provides grace and redemption for the worst of sinners. So, consequences with grace.
A small child beating another small child might get a spanking, or be isolated, or something else, depending on what has the biggest impact.
A child who was beaten(abused) by a mother - a different situation again. Depends again on how well we knew the child and mother, the circumstances, the likelihood of re-offending, etc. But in no case is it acceptable beyond a simple spanking in appropriate circumstances which would not be considered to be a beating. Protection of the life and health and emotional well-being of the child would be paramount.
In the same way, we adopt children, support single mothers, and maintain the value of the unborn female child, and the ability of the mother to give birth, as a response to those who would kill the unborn females.
Well, you possibly knew you wouldn't get a short answer to a short question? :)
Posted in: Con-cent: When Your Consent Isn't Worth a Penny
Ken, wow! You are replying to a pretty old post. But that's okay. My main point was that legal laws of consent cause major problems for Christians. Often people assume that if something is legal, it is therefore okay. Okay with God, they think. This is far from the truth. When the government suggests that the age of 14 or 16 is the legal age of consent for sex, they are contradicting the whole idea of keeping sex in marriage. Thru the legal consent idea, they also promote the idea of sex without marriage, and they promote the idea of sex for young teenagers, as long as they do it with each other.
Christians too often get blindsided by this message, and the law does not support the authority and responsibility of parents who want to protect their children, and who want to respect sex and marriage. Sex becomes like something that tastes good in a grocery store, and the children have to have it. And the law says they can buy it when they become 14 or 16. The parental ability for involvement in things like abortion, or birth control, or managing sexual activity of their young children, is often not honored at all in the school system, or by the legal system.
I don't think Beth was wrong to point it out what the law says. But it needs to be put in the right context. Nor does it deserve the priority of attention. Government standards are not always biblical, christian standards, and we need to be aware of that.
Posted in: Con-cent: When Your Consent Isn't Worth a Penny
Hello Ken. Actually, common law does reflect moral law in most cases.
Government laws forbid theft, murder, fraud (lying), which are all part of
common law. It also upholds marriage, although presently it does so very
poorly and minimalistically, by treating adultery and abuse as grounds for
divorce. However, in today's easy ability to get divorce, and in
someplaces permitting homo"marriage" there is also a denigration of
marriage, so it is a mixed bag.
Actually, I don't blame the law itself. I blame government and society,
even including myself for our lack of maintaining reasonably good laws.
However, we also need to find a balance between freedoms and laws in
society. I do not think we ought to make laws about church attendance for
example, nor forcing people to pray. On the other hand, it is good for us
to make laws about shutting down most stores one day a week, or having not
more than one wife.
Posted in: Why be an Elder? In Response to Wendy
Steve you didn't say whether the 200 members were adults or included all the children. If it is 200 total, with about 100 adults, then you could probably expect about 25 or so to be able to serve as leaders, (elders/deacons). This might depend on the maturity of the church. Some younger churches are more mature than some older churches... Anyway, if you have six elders, they could rotate every four years and you would be okay. Occasionally a new elder would come in, and an older elder would pass away, or would simply be a "retired" elder, helping only on specific occasions when requested.
The twelfth apostle to replace Judas was elected, but it seems other elders were appointed, although scripture does not indicate what methods were used to appoint them.
Training happens partly at congregational meetings, where procedures and leadership are demonstrated. Then it happens also at the initial consistory meetings. But the real training for the spiritual leadership, must be a lifelong thing, starting while children are learning about scripture and participating in a relationship with their Lord and Saviour. It is then that they learn about caring for others, initiating projects that build up the community of faith, as it builds up their family in their christian response. The training should occur in sunday school, catechism classes and boys and girls clubs, where they learn about leadership and responsibility and learn about the significance of the practices of their church, and about the various aspects of worship.
The building of relationships also ought to occur before, perhaps long before an individual is appointed as a leader/elder. Then the responsibility of eldership will naturally outflow from the previous roles and relationships.
Posted in: Snapshots of a Child-Friendly Church
Jesus said, let the little children come to me. If you do not become as these little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We often take these statements too lightly, and pass them off as fluff, when they are actually at the heart of the gospel.
In our church, we spend the first fifty minutes having Sunday school. Everyone is involved, from small children to adults. Adults who are not teaching can attend an adult bible study, while some simply drink coffee and fellowship. Then, after a ten minute break, we have a song service, maybe 3 or 4 songs, and then a special story for the children, which the adults also get to listen to. About ten or 14 kids go to the front to listen, answer questions, and suggest kids songs to sing. Another 2 or 3 kids songs then are sung, usually from memory.
Then the regular service starts, at which all children are welcome to stay, but a few go to nursery. Particularly infants. Making the worship service for children is important, but also the entire environment. We have a playground outside also, which gets used in summer after church, and a foosball game in one of the nurseries, which kids get to play while the adults have coffee after church. Anyway, just some ideas for paying attention to what Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them."
Posted in: How a Consumer Culture Threatens to Destroy Pastors
Imagine if all pastors had their lives entirely together. Would this be success. Saying that if pastors have problems that this is a failure rate, points to the essence of the problem. Because if all pastors were pathetic, and had nothing but problems, but yet the church was growing and people were worshipping God in greater and new ways, then it would not be failure. God works through our weaknesses, through our trials and tribulations, which increase patience, perseverance, hope. As scripture says.
Posted in: Where Is Our Empathy?
Ken, although you may feel you are less than whole, you should realize that everyone is actually less than whole. Everyone struggles with something, whether hidden illness, insecurities, trials, past hurts. Only Christ can make us whole.
But your perspective will be used by God to enrich others, and to help others see themselves more clearly.
Every Sunday, well, many Sundays, I have a friend sit beside me in church who has down's syndrome. He is a young man past his teens, and I wonder what goes through his mind. His patience and perseverence in trying to follow along in the singing sends me, in my great impatience, a good message. He is less than whole, and yet happier often than many who appear to be "perfect". While we yearn to be the way God originally created us to be, still we can rejoice that God uses us and our imperfections still to glorify himself in so many unforseen ways.
God bless you.
John Z
Posted in: If You're Here...
Okay, I just heard something about article 7. What happened there, and how many people knew about it, and how did that slip through the radar?
Posted in: Feedback to Pastors
I agree Karl, that deacons can provide feedback to the preachers, pastors, elders, and cleaning staff, although it should be done in a charitable, positive, constructive and loving way. Perhaps the way to start this is for deacons themselves also to ask for feedback from the congregation, and from elders and pastors. This will help them to understand how to give feedback to others, and it may encourage others also to ask for feedback. It may also be helpful to start with deacons giving feedback to each other, and then go on from there.
Posted in: Feedback to Pastors
Karl, your statement, "too many pastors are dying for a lack of feedback" hit me when I read it the second time. I find it a shame that lack of feedback should cause preachers to die since we should be working for the Lord, not for approval of men. But on the other hand, I understand that a lack of response really makes you wonder about the impact of what you are doing, and whether it is appreciated or not. I suggest that if preachers or elders or deacons want feedback, that they not be too shy to ask for it. That they ask for it in a way that is meaningful to them. That they ask specific questions. They may not always get the answers they expect, nor as complete as they would like, but it will be better than silence or absence of reaction. I must admit however, that I really enjoy the unsolicited comments the most.
Posted in: Unexpectedly Full
This reminded me of a song we often sing at home and at church, called, "Fill up my Cup. Let it overflow with love." which also includes a variation of "Amazing Grace" And that song reminds me of David's Psalm 23, which says, my cup over flows.
Being full of bread and fish and drink, being content, even stuffed, is what God also gives us in a spiritual sense, if we are just willing to ask for it, and to receive it.
Posted in: Invited
Stan and Monica, I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I tend towards letting parents decide on whether their children ought to participate, and that some level of understanding and committment makes sense. If a child is totally rebellious towards God, then parents ought to have the wisdom to discourage or forbid their child to participate, but otherwise a parent ought to give permission if the child loves the Lord. Whether an infant who cannot yet talk or understand should participate should be left up to parents, and charity to all in this decision.
The scripture passage about discerning the body of Christ is sometimes better grasped by young children, than it is by some older confessing members, since it really means to care about the entire body of Christ, the people of God. Some older confessing members seem to care more about themselves and their own family, than they do about the family of God, and about Jesus himself, who died for us, and expects obedience from us, and consideration and respect for one another, regardless of wealth, position, and age.
The implications of this for profession of faith is that profession of faith time is usually not when one joins the body of Christ. Our present practice of formal Profession of faith is not the initial or perhaps not even the most significant profession of one's faith. Perhaps it ought to be seen as a profession of membership, an agreement to certain confessions, to a certain church body, and to scriptural moral behaviours and lifestyle. It also puts one under a special potential for discipline under membership, as compared to a general christian admonition to and from other christians which exists outside of formal "membership". I am thinking on paper here a bit, as a way of opening this thought more fully.
I have thought for some time that the way we do profession of faith is very deadening. It ought to be a time of sharing and rejoicing, but instead it is often a ritual, form-reading, and a time of inhibition, reducing our profession to something read by someone else who is not making the profession. Often there is doubt about the full committment of those making the profession, due to the lack of involvement, as well as the ritualistic ceremonialism of the event. Why not have the new members agree to the profession in the council room, after discussion, and then make a real verbal, extended, detailed committment in front of the congregation?
In some cases, we could also have people make a witness to the church prior to their being ready to become formal papered members. Those who have some minor disagreement with confessions of faith, or who are heavily struggling with unchristian lifestyles, could still make a profession of faith of where they are at, sharing their joy in Christ and progress in life with the body of christ in church. Then the membership profession would not become the only possible testimony by default, and perhaps it would be taken more seriously. Just thinking here.
Posted in: V-Day, What Would Jesus Do?
Wow, Wendy, you are quick. Well, to answer your simple question which has so many possible situations, "someone" would have to have an identity first. And the "beater" would also have to have an identity. If it was one of my sons who did the beating of his wife or child for example (can't see that happening), then they would be in big trouble.... likely get a serious talking to by my wife with my full support, and perhaps being physically restrained or even punished by my other sons and myself, for example. Simply not acceptable. Okay... what if it is a stranger? or a friend? Do they have a "protector"? every situation requires examination of circumstances, was it once in a lifetime, or is it habitual, or somewhere in between. The woman would simply be supported; either given a place to live, or security of protection, or opportunity to prosecute, or opportunity to forgive provided true repentance (meaning no recidivism) occurs.
The same general concern for a man or boy who has been beaten. Depending on cause, severity, repetition. Given a safe place and a remedy to prevent reoccurence, which may or may not include legal action. Of course, beaters are human beings as well, perhaps sometimes also victims of abuse, and God provides grace and redemption for the worst of sinners. So, consequences with grace.
A small child beating another small child might get a spanking, or be isolated, or something else, depending on what has the biggest impact.
A child who was beaten(abused) by a mother - a different situation again. Depends again on how well we knew the child and mother, the circumstances, the likelihood of re-offending, etc. But in no case is it acceptable beyond a simple spanking in appropriate circumstances which would not be considered to be a beating. Protection of the life and health and emotional well-being of the child would be paramount.
In the same way, we adopt children, support single mothers, and maintain the value of the unborn female child, and the ability of the mother to give birth, as a response to those who would kill the unborn females.
Well, you possibly knew you wouldn't get a short answer to a short question? :)