One of our Sunday school classes this year had the objective for every child (age 9-11) to learn the books of the Bible by heart. I think it is a good tool for them in their confidence about the Bible as a whole.
As a small church, we have generally stopped having elections for elders and deacons. Rather, we have affirmation votes by the congregation. We do not seem to have difficulty finding elders even though we have never had females for nomination. I think possibly the reason, is that elders are seen to be leaders, and are respected for their work. The fact that they are elders does not mean that they stop being sunday school teachers, lead services in the seniors home, join in with the band or choir, or whatever else they are doing. As elders and deacons, they are expected to be leaders, to teach, to pray, to lead services, to decide on offerings and promote mission efforts, to take responsibility for various activities, to make decisions. They may or may not make home visits, but their decision is basically respected. Perhaps the role of elders and former elders in leading services, reading or preparing sermons also helps to highlight the role of elders, as this happens often in our church; between 25-50% of services are led by elders/deacons.
More respect for the office of elder might help. For example, there is no biblical reason why elders could not administer Lord's supper without the help of a paid pastor. There is no biblical reason for not encouraging more elders to lead bible studies and prepare sermons (under guidance of consistory). There is an overabundance of distinctions made between the role of pastors/ministers and the role of elders, and this is unscriptural, and leads to an abandonment of christian leadership responsibility.
One of the distinctions is that "miniisters' have a lifelong calling while 'elders" do not. This is artificial, unbiblical, elitist, and makes it seem that elders can barely carry out their duties for two or three years before begging for relief. While there may be some benefit to having on-duty and off-duty elders, there is no scriptural basis for removing them from office simply because time has run out or they will not be required to attend meetings, or re-installing them as if being re-ordained, simply because they are again attending meetings.
I've been at churches where the preachers do not administer the Lord's Supper, but elders do that instead. And at churches where as many as four or five other people (possibly elders/deacons) will lead in prayers and where elders give the blessing and benediction, rather than the pastor. This reinforces the respect for the office of elder, which is really the office that receives the most attention in scripture in the new testament. (Not the office of pastor.) And all offices are referred to as ministries (service), not just the preacher/pastor.
Ken, wow! You are replying to a pretty old post. But that's okay. My main point was that legal laws of consent cause major problems for Christians. Often people assume that if something is legal, it is therefore okay. Okay with God, they think. This is far from the truth. When the government suggests that the age of 14 or 16 is the legal age of consent for sex, they are contradicting the whole idea of keeping sex in marriage. Thru the legal consent idea, they also promote the idea of sex without marriage, and they promote the idea of sex for young teenagers, as long as they do it with each other.
Christians too often get blindsided by this message, and the law does not support the authority and responsibility of parents who want to protect their children, and who want to respect sex and marriage. Sex becomes like something that tastes good in a grocery store, and the children have to have it. And the law says they can buy it when they become 14 or 16. The parental ability for involvement in things like abortion, or birth control, or managing sexual activity of their young children, is often not honored at all in the school system, or by the legal system.
I don't think Beth was wrong to point it out what the law says. But it needs to be put in the right context. Nor does it deserve the priority of attention. Government standards are not always biblical, christian standards, and we need to be aware of that.
Jesus said, let the little children come to me. If you do not become as these little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We often take these statements too lightly, and pass them off as fluff, when they are actually at the heart of the gospel.
In our church, we spend the first fifty minutes having Sunday school. Everyone is involved, from small children to adults. Adults who are not teaching can attend an adult bible study, while some simply drink coffee and fellowship. Then, after a ten minute break, we have a song service, maybe 3 or 4 songs, and then a special story for the children, which the adults also get to listen to. About ten or 14 kids go to the front to listen, answer questions, and suggest kids songs to sing. Another 2 or 3 kids songs then are sung, usually from memory.
Then the regular service starts, at which all children are welcome to stay, but a few go to nursery. Particularly infants. Making the worship service for children is important, but also the entire environment. We have a playground outside also, which gets used in summer after church, and a foosball game in one of the nurseries, which kids get to play while the adults have coffee after church. Anyway, just some ideas for paying attention to what Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them."
Imagine if all pastors had their lives entirely together. Would this be success. Saying that if pastors have problems that this is a failure rate, points to the essence of the problem. Because if all pastors were pathetic, and had nothing but problems, but yet the church was growing and people were worshipping God in greater and new ways, then it would not be failure. God works through our weaknesses, through our trials and tribulations, which increase patience, perseverance, hope. As scripture says.
Ken, although you may feel you are less than whole, you should realize that everyone is actually less than whole. Everyone struggles with something, whether hidden illness, insecurities, trials, past hurts. Only Christ can make us whole.
But your perspective will be used by God to enrich others, and to help others see themselves more clearly.
Every Sunday, well, many Sundays, I have a friend sit beside me in church who has down's syndrome. He is a young man past his teens, and I wonder what goes through his mind. His patience and perseverence in trying to follow along in the singing sends me, in my great impatience, a good message. He is less than whole, and yet happier often than many who appear to be "perfect". While we yearn to be the way God originally created us to be, still we can rejoice that God uses us and our imperfections still to glorify himself in so many unforseen ways.
Karl, your statement, "too many pastors are dying for a lack of feedback" hit me when I read it the second time. I find it a shame that lack of feedback should cause preachers to die since we should be working for the Lord, not for approval of men. But on the other hand, I understand that a lack of response really makes you wonder about the impact of what you are doing, and whether it is appreciated or not. I suggest that if preachers or elders or deacons want feedback, that they not be too shy to ask for it. That they ask for it in a way that is meaningful to them. That they ask specific questions. They may not always get the answers they expect, nor as complete as they would like, but it will be better than silence or absence of reaction. I must admit however, that I really enjoy the unsolicited comments the most.
I agree Karl, that deacons can provide feedback to the preachers, pastors, elders, and cleaning staff, although it should be done in a charitable, positive, constructive and loving way. Perhaps the way to start this is for deacons themselves also to ask for feedback from the congregation, and from elders and pastors. This will help them to understand how to give feedback to others, and it may encourage others also to ask for feedback. It may also be helpful to start with deacons giving feedback to each other, and then go on from there.
This reminded me of a song we often sing at home and at church, called, "Fill up my Cup. Let it overflow with love." which also includes a variation of "Amazing Grace" And that song reminds me of David's Psalm 23, which says, my cup over flows. Being full of bread and fish and drink, being content, even stuffed, is what God also gives us in a spiritual sense, if we are just willing to ask for it, and to receive it.
Stan and Monica, I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I tend towards letting parents decide on whether their children ought to participate, and that some level of understanding and committment makes sense. If a child is totally rebellious towards God, then parents ought to have the wisdom to discourage or forbid their child to participate, but otherwise a parent ought to give permission if the child loves the Lord. Whether an infant who cannot yet talk or understand should participate should be left up to parents, and charity to all in this decision.
The scripture passage about discerning the body of Christ is sometimes better grasped by young children, than it is by some older confessing members, since it really means to care about the entire body of Christ, the people of God. Some older confessing members seem to care more about themselves and their own family, than they do about the family of God, and about Jesus himself, who died for us, and expects obedience from us, and consideration and respect for one another, regardless of wealth, position, and age.
The implications of this for profession of faith is that profession of faith time is usually not when one joins the body of Christ. Our present practice of formal Profession of faith is not the initial or perhaps not even the most significant profession of one's faith. Perhaps it ought to be seen as a profession of membership, an agreement to certain confessions, to a certain church body, and to scriptural moral behaviours and lifestyle. It also puts one under a special potential for discipline under membership, as compared to a general christian admonition to and from other christians which exists outside of formal "membership". I am thinking on paper here a bit, as a way of opening this thought more fully.
I have thought for some time that the way we do profession of faith is very deadening. It ought to be a time of sharing and rejoicing, but instead it is often a ritual, form-reading, and a time of inhibition, reducing our profession to something read by someone else who is not making the profession. Often there is doubt about the full committment of those making the profession, due to the lack of involvement, as well as the ritualistic ceremonialism of the event. Why not have the new members agree to the profession in the council room, after discussion, and then make a real verbal, extended, detailed committment in front of the congregation?
In some cases, we could also have people make a witness to the church prior to their being ready to become formal papered members. Those who have some minor disagreement with confessions of faith, or who are heavily struggling with unchristian lifestyles, could still make a profession of faith of where they are at, sharing their joy in Christ and progress in life with the body of christ in church. Then the membership profession would not become the only possible testimony by default, and perhaps it would be taken more seriously. Just thinking here.
Bonnie, don't you think that many cases, maybe most, are the result of men abusing women? using them and not supporting them? And women permitting the abuse? (Sex without committment is abuse.) And then pushing the abortion on the woman... isn't that also a form of abuse? And what about the abuse of the fetus, the unborn, the new life? Is this not also violence?
Posted in: Jesus in Every Book of the Bible--and on the Internet!
One of our Sunday school classes this year had the objective for every child (age 9-11) to learn the books of the Bible by heart. I think it is a good tool for them in their confidence about the Bible as a whole.
Posted in: Why be an Elder? In Response to Wendy
As a small church, we have generally stopped having elections for elders and deacons. Rather, we have affirmation votes by the congregation. We do not seem to have difficulty finding elders even though we have never had females for nomination. I think possibly the reason, is that elders are seen to be leaders, and are respected for their work. The fact that they are elders does not mean that they stop being sunday school teachers, lead services in the seniors home, join in with the band or choir, or whatever else they are doing. As elders and deacons, they are expected to be leaders, to teach, to pray, to lead services, to decide on offerings and promote mission efforts, to take responsibility for various activities, to make decisions. They may or may not make home visits, but their decision is basically respected. Perhaps the role of elders and former elders in leading services, reading or preparing sermons also helps to highlight the role of elders, as this happens often in our church; between 25-50% of services are led by elders/deacons.
More respect for the office of elder might help. For example, there is no biblical reason why elders could not administer Lord's supper without the help of a paid pastor. There is no biblical reason for not encouraging more elders to lead bible studies and prepare sermons (under guidance of consistory). There is an overabundance of distinctions made between the role of pastors/ministers and the role of elders, and this is unscriptural, and leads to an abandonment of christian leadership responsibility.
One of the distinctions is that "miniisters' have a lifelong calling while 'elders" do not. This is artificial, unbiblical, elitist, and makes it seem that elders can barely carry out their duties for two or three years before begging for relief. While there may be some benefit to having on-duty and off-duty elders, there is no scriptural basis for removing them from office simply because time has run out or they will not be required to attend meetings, or re-installing them as if being re-ordained, simply because they are again attending meetings.
I've been at churches where the preachers do not administer the Lord's Supper, but elders do that instead. And at churches where as many as four or five other people (possibly elders/deacons) will lead in prayers and where elders give the blessing and benediction, rather than the pastor. This reinforces the respect for the office of elder, which is really the office that receives the most attention in scripture in the new testament. (Not the office of pastor.) And all offices are referred to as ministries (service), not just the preacher/pastor.
Posted in: Con-cent: When Your Consent Isn't Worth a Penny
Ken, wow! You are replying to a pretty old post. But that's okay. My main point was that legal laws of consent cause major problems for Christians. Often people assume that if something is legal, it is therefore okay. Okay with God, they think. This is far from the truth. When the government suggests that the age of 14 or 16 is the legal age of consent for sex, they are contradicting the whole idea of keeping sex in marriage. Thru the legal consent idea, they also promote the idea of sex without marriage, and they promote the idea of sex for young teenagers, as long as they do it with each other.
Christians too often get blindsided by this message, and the law does not support the authority and responsibility of parents who want to protect their children, and who want to respect sex and marriage. Sex becomes like something that tastes good in a grocery store, and the children have to have it. And the law says they can buy it when they become 14 or 16. The parental ability for involvement in things like abortion, or birth control, or managing sexual activity of their young children, is often not honored at all in the school system, or by the legal system.
I don't think Beth was wrong to point it out what the law says. But it needs to be put in the right context. Nor does it deserve the priority of attention. Government standards are not always biblical, christian standards, and we need to be aware of that.
Posted in: Snapshots of a Child-Friendly Church
Jesus said, let the little children come to me. If you do not become as these little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We often take these statements too lightly, and pass them off as fluff, when they are actually at the heart of the gospel.
In our church, we spend the first fifty minutes having Sunday school. Everyone is involved, from small children to adults. Adults who are not teaching can attend an adult bible study, while some simply drink coffee and fellowship. Then, after a ten minute break, we have a song service, maybe 3 or 4 songs, and then a special story for the children, which the adults also get to listen to. About ten or 14 kids go to the front to listen, answer questions, and suggest kids songs to sing. Another 2 or 3 kids songs then are sung, usually from memory.
Then the regular service starts, at which all children are welcome to stay, but a few go to nursery. Particularly infants. Making the worship service for children is important, but also the entire environment. We have a playground outside also, which gets used in summer after church, and a foosball game in one of the nurseries, which kids get to play while the adults have coffee after church. Anyway, just some ideas for paying attention to what Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them."
Posted in: How a Consumer Culture Threatens to Destroy Pastors
Imagine if all pastors had their lives entirely together. Would this be success. Saying that if pastors have problems that this is a failure rate, points to the essence of the problem. Because if all pastors were pathetic, and had nothing but problems, but yet the church was growing and people were worshipping God in greater and new ways, then it would not be failure. God works through our weaknesses, through our trials and tribulations, which increase patience, perseverance, hope. As scripture says.
Posted in: Where Is Our Empathy?
Ken, although you may feel you are less than whole, you should realize that everyone is actually less than whole. Everyone struggles with something, whether hidden illness, insecurities, trials, past hurts. Only Christ can make us whole.
But your perspective will be used by God to enrich others, and to help others see themselves more clearly.
Every Sunday, well, many Sundays, I have a friend sit beside me in church who has down's syndrome. He is a young man past his teens, and I wonder what goes through his mind. His patience and perseverence in trying to follow along in the singing sends me, in my great impatience, a good message. He is less than whole, and yet happier often than many who appear to be "perfect". While we yearn to be the way God originally created us to be, still we can rejoice that God uses us and our imperfections still to glorify himself in so many unforseen ways.
God bless you.
John Z
Posted in: If You're Here...
Okay, I just heard something about article 7. What happened there, and how many people knew about it, and how did that slip through the radar?
Posted in: Feedback to Pastors
Karl, your statement, "too many pastors are dying for a lack of feedback" hit me when I read it the second time. I find it a shame that lack of feedback should cause preachers to die since we should be working for the Lord, not for approval of men. But on the other hand, I understand that a lack of response really makes you wonder about the impact of what you are doing, and whether it is appreciated or not. I suggest that if preachers or elders or deacons want feedback, that they not be too shy to ask for it. That they ask for it in a way that is meaningful to them. That they ask specific questions. They may not always get the answers they expect, nor as complete as they would like, but it will be better than silence or absence of reaction. I must admit however, that I really enjoy the unsolicited comments the most.
Posted in: Feedback to Pastors
I agree Karl, that deacons can provide feedback to the preachers, pastors, elders, and cleaning staff, although it should be done in a charitable, positive, constructive and loving way. Perhaps the way to start this is for deacons themselves also to ask for feedback from the congregation, and from elders and pastors. This will help them to understand how to give feedback to others, and it may encourage others also to ask for feedback. It may also be helpful to start with deacons giving feedback to each other, and then go on from there.
Posted in: Unexpectedly Full
This reminded me of a song we often sing at home and at church, called, "Fill up my Cup. Let it overflow with love." which also includes a variation of "Amazing Grace" And that song reminds me of David's Psalm 23, which says, my cup over flows.
Being full of bread and fish and drink, being content, even stuffed, is what God also gives us in a spiritual sense, if we are just willing to ask for it, and to receive it.
Posted in: Invited
Stan and Monica, I am inclined to agree with you on this issue. I tend towards letting parents decide on whether their children ought to participate, and that some level of understanding and committment makes sense. If a child is totally rebellious towards God, then parents ought to have the wisdom to discourage or forbid their child to participate, but otherwise a parent ought to give permission if the child loves the Lord. Whether an infant who cannot yet talk or understand should participate should be left up to parents, and charity to all in this decision.
The scripture passage about discerning the body of Christ is sometimes better grasped by young children, than it is by some older confessing members, since it really means to care about the entire body of Christ, the people of God. Some older confessing members seem to care more about themselves and their own family, than they do about the family of God, and about Jesus himself, who died for us, and expects obedience from us, and consideration and respect for one another, regardless of wealth, position, and age.
The implications of this for profession of faith is that profession of faith time is usually not when one joins the body of Christ. Our present practice of formal Profession of faith is not the initial or perhaps not even the most significant profession of one's faith. Perhaps it ought to be seen as a profession of membership, an agreement to certain confessions, to a certain church body, and to scriptural moral behaviours and lifestyle. It also puts one under a special potential for discipline under membership, as compared to a general christian admonition to and from other christians which exists outside of formal "membership". I am thinking on paper here a bit, as a way of opening this thought more fully.
I have thought for some time that the way we do profession of faith is very deadening. It ought to be a time of sharing and rejoicing, but instead it is often a ritual, form-reading, and a time of inhibition, reducing our profession to something read by someone else who is not making the profession. Often there is doubt about the full committment of those making the profession, due to the lack of involvement, as well as the ritualistic ceremonialism of the event. Why not have the new members agree to the profession in the council room, after discussion, and then make a real verbal, extended, detailed committment in front of the congregation?
In some cases, we could also have people make a witness to the church prior to their being ready to become formal papered members. Those who have some minor disagreement with confessions of faith, or who are heavily struggling with unchristian lifestyles, could still make a profession of faith of where they are at, sharing their joy in Christ and progress in life with the body of christ in church. Then the membership profession would not become the only possible testimony by default, and perhaps it would be taken more seriously. Just thinking here.
Posted in: V-Day, What Would Jesus Do?
Bonnie, don't you think that many cases, maybe most, are the result of men abusing women? using them and not supporting them? And women permitting the abuse? (Sex without committment is abuse.) And then pushing the abortion on the woman... isn't that also a form of abuse? And what about the abuse of the fetus, the unborn, the new life? Is this not also violence?