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This is a really helpful article, Dan.  Thanks for sharing it!  It looks like it has been effective to spark a good conversation.

I like your short definition of justice; it seems accurate, and so I think it's helpful to the ongoing conversation.  I also agree with your point that people tend to conflate various terms with each other (justice, mercy, equality, etc), and that such conflation is unhelpful on a number of levels. 

While I don't always agree with everything that you and Erik have to say (in our Facebook group discussions), I do think that you're right on target with this article.  

If I had any comment to offer here, it would be along the lines of how various word-pairs and word-groups relate with each other in the OT (esp. in Hebrew poetry).  Certainly, terms such as "justice" and "righteousness" and "mercy" each have their own distinct definitions or fields of meaning.  And while the OT writers don't conflate their terms, they nevertheless do tend to pair them or tie them to each other.  In these cases, the meaning of the whole can be greater (or more complex/nuanced) than the sum of its parts.  My point here is that I think this feature of Hebrew language helps to account for some of the ambiguity that we have in our conversations about justice; if Scripture makes a habit of tying certain words or concepts to each other, then that will inevitably be reflected in our discussions about those words and concepts.

Now, I don't think that this feature of Hebrew language allows us to conflate these terms for ourselves.  Rather, I'd argue that this feature of OT writing actually calls for more precision from us, not less!  And so in the end, I still strongly agree with you, that we need to develop some real clarity about what these words mean.  I think that the clarity you're advocating here is actually one of the keys to properly interpreting the meaning of these biblical word-pairs and word-groups, and is therefore essential for our ongoing discussion about justice.  

Here is perhaps another way to phrase what I think you're saying:  The deeper our conversations get into any given topic, the more precise our use of words should become.  When we find ourselves in disagreement with fellow believers as we discuss matters of faith and practice, we need to slow down and clarify exactly what we’re meaning (and also what we're not meaning) when we say what we’re saying.  If not, we might as well be speaking different languages, and that didn't work out so well on the plain of Shinar.  :) 

Thanks again for sharing such a helpful article!

Trevor Payton on October 30, 2010

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

Well said, Mark!  "Scaling mountains with our eyes" is a great metaphor, and I think it captures the situation well.  Great comment about failure as a step in the process of innovation too.

I was there at the meeting on Tuesday night, and it was a very good discussion.  Time and again, I kept hearing about the importance of authenticity and relevance.  And this was applied to both pastors and church members. 

To the degree that the CRC is focused on itself rather than the world, and to the degree that our comfort and the continuation of the-CRC-as-we-know-it remains more important than God's kingdom and our role as living missional witnesses of Jesus Christ...to that degree we are out of touch, inauthentic, and irrelevant to the lives of our young people.  (And to the rest of the people in society too.) 

In large part, it seems like the average CRC congregation is out of touch, being more concerned with staying comfortable than with loving God's world and the people in it.  I think that when we as churches develop the courage to acknowledge that reality and start addressing it in meaningful (and probably uncomfortable) ways, we will start to find young people (and other people too) starting to enter our doors again.  The church exists for the world...not for itself.

Trevor Payton on November 4, 2010

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

That's a very good question, Terry.  I'll suggest as an initial starting point that there is a difference between Christianity as a movement and Christianity as an institution.  Good biblical teaching and doctrine of the Church has primarily to do with Christianity as a movement...it says very little about the institution. 

Trevor Payton on November 23, 2010

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

Woah, slow down for a minute.  :)  I haven't read in this discussion anyone bemoaning the use of hymns and organs.  I've read a lot of comments about growing in authenticity, about renewing our methods of making disciples, and about stepping into God's mission for his Church.  I've also read a number of comments basically about shedding some of the selfish mindsets that have settled into our practice of life and ministry.  Nothing about hymns or organs being worthless, though.  Personally, I deeply love a whole bunch of the songs in our grey Psalter Hymnal--and some in the Blue one too!  I hope we won't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in that regard. 

That being said, I do sincerely believe that a number of the practices and ministry expectations in our denomination have become idolatrous and sinful (even though they were perhaps very faithful in the past).  Reggie McNeal (in "The Present Future") speaks often of the north american church having become a religious social club...and to the degree that he's right, we as a whole denomination have a great deal of serious repentance to work through.  And it goes so much deeper than worship style.

Trevor Payton on November 24, 2010

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

At least as I see it, this matter isn't primarily about the worship wars.  Understandably, many people feel quite strongly about their preferred styles of worship, and it's vital that both sides respect the other in that discussion (Philippians 2:1-11 is crucial here).  And while many people have often equated traditional worship style with a traditional style of church ministry, and vice versa, I think the issue is much deeper than simply about music style. 

I think this discussion is about the more basic questions of What is the Church? and What are we here for?  Having grown up in the CRC bubble, many young people are having a rude awakening to recognize that life is very different outside the bubble than it is inside.  The important questions inside the bubble (worship wars as a good example) are not really (or not readily) important outside.  And the major issues that are impacting youth outside the bubble (is there hope?  truth in other religions?  what to do about the environment?) are rarely talked about inside the bubble.  On the inside, we're spinning our wheels and going crazy about housekeeping matters, while on the outside, life is passing us by at breakneck speed. 

You'd think that, if the Christian faith really was true, and if Jesus Christ as Lord of all creation really was redeeming every square inch of it, then we would be more concerned with what is happening outside the bubble than we are with housekeeping matters on the inside.

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