I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
so, is anyone interested in pursuing "deliverance" as a viable option? has anyone ever tried this, whether or not it was succesful, or is dealing with these type of issues/sins primarily through "psychological" type intervention?
Is something holding us back on "deliverance'?
If it seems I'm "singling" out spiritual leaders, it's because that is the point of this particular discussion... pastors with porn/lust/sexual immorality struggles... we're not discussing gossip/slander on this thread, we're not discussing lay people here, although these maybe should be discussed in some forum as well, but the point of this thread is pastors aka spiritual leaders and porn.
Again, I go back to our walk with the Holy Spirit, or lack there of. Does anyone agree, we might have missed something here? or am i alone out in left field or beyond? I believe this is part of the root issue why something like porn is such a significant problem. But I'm open to being wrong...
I ask this respectfully, with the hope of having a sharpening discussion... iron sharpens iron, and we need to see if our sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and His gifts (and I have encountered resistance to them), might be part of the problem. Because if it is, and we're not willing to recognize that possibility... we're as good as dead... we can have a man run institution using our intellect and natural ability that we call the crc, but the life and power of the Spirit will not be in it if we are not willing to repent of where we have quenched Him.. we can even make it appear "successful" and "healthy" to some degree, but as we know, our denom. and others like us are dying... and we are still trying to figure out why.
I apologize, if this seems strong, but to me it's the "white" elephant that needs to be discussed in the denom. There is so much potential, if we are willing to walk much more fully in the Spirit and His gifts.
As far as I know, every level of YWAM missionaries raise their own support... this is the case with a number of other ministries as well as Steve mentions... I see it on a local level with young people raising support as they are called as intercessory missionaries and involved with the local prayer center where I'm on the board... now try raising support for that!!
one of the things this enables YWAM to do, is that they help hundreds of families with affordable adoptions, several social workers/attorneys raise their own support and then give their time to the adoption process... and affordable adoptions is a justice issue.
ok Shawn, I just read Keith's permission to broaden the discussion =)... which I missed or it didn't catch my attention the first time I read that...
So I do believe the root of many issues/addictions/sins is our lack of understanding of the Holy Spirit and His gifts. I would love to see deliverance used for many who are struggling, because our whole awareness of the demonic realm, of spiritual warfare is very limited from my experience in the crc... almost anytime I even bring up the demonic, one of the first comments back is "well some people think there's a demon behind every bush", and to me it seems we might be at the the other extreme, that hey, this is America, they don't exist here.
and the gift of prophecy is something I'm desperate for in His Bride, and our crc as part of that Bride... this is the key gift that edifies and builds up His Church. Yes, unfortunately there has been lots of damage with the gift, but I believe that's because we don't know how to test and discern when someone shares an "alleged" word from the LORD. Again, God is up front with us telling us, we will have to test them.
What if have found in my experience being involved in a local prayer center, is that for a substantial number of believers, time in prayer, worship and in the Word is limited... this was a statistic of 2000 spiritual leaders (sorry, I'm not picking on them, it's just the statistic that sticks in my mind), is that 95% of them spend less than 5 minutes a day in prayer. Through involvement with the prayer center, we find this to be true at many levels. Prayer is not valued in our "can do" society, and we/the Bride is suffering because we are not spending time with Jesus. When the LORD stirred up my prayer life, it made night and day difference in my walk with Him. That's also when I discovered the Holy Spirit at new levels, I never heard talked about in crc circles, or if the topic was brought up, the subject was quickly changed. \
The good news is we have young adults in their 20's who do get prayer, and are spending 10-30 hours a week worshipping and crying out to Him. We are seeing God move through various spheres of society in powerful ways and it's very exciting. I have been involved with healing prayer ministries... this is something new for many in the crc, and we still have a lot to learn (and we might have to humble ourselves and learn it from other denominations that have been walking in this much longer than we have). I run into a lot of intellectual skepticism, but I also get to be encouraged when I find someone like minded who has experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in ways that can only be God.
what might be a fairly simple solution to start with, is encouraging congregations to put a program such as "covenant eyes" on any church computer (or every member agrees to put it on their computer, so everyone is held to the same accountability, now that would be something =). It doesn't deal with the temptation or if there is a deeper issue, but it might be a simple place to start.
beautiful, Rachel, bless your heart for sharing this very personal testimony... God's been emphasizing that scripture to me this year... we are new creations in Christ, the old is gone! PTL!!
WOW! PTL!!! I don't know if you had made those 2 significant confessions before, but because you confessed these "sins" to other believers, I wouldn't be surprised to hear your healing to significantly increase and pick up speed and you have some significant breakthroughs soon! For His glory and our good!!!!
Thanks Keith... covenant eyes is more than filters (you can choose no filters with it if you want)... covenant eyes tracks where you go on the internet, and then sends that report to your accountability partner(s) aka elders maybe =).
here's a bit from the link!
Accountability Service
Blocking software is very useful but it has its limits. Over a decade ago we pioneered a new service called Internet Accountability Software to help people fight online temptations.
This service simply monitors everywhere you go online. It doesn’t block anything. A rating is then assigned to every web address based on objectionable material, and the information is compiled into easy-to-read reports. Reports are sent via e-mail to anyone you wish to see it.
Parents can then use these reports to have good conversations with their kids about where they go online. Friends can help friends discuss the temptations they face online and how the Internet impacts their relationships and their lives offline.
Praise the LORD, Shawn, that's why we have the Holy Spirit, so He can guide us through each situation with its unique variables and unique people that are involved. What might work well for one, might not work for the next even if the situation is similar, due to different personality issues or where they are in there walk with Jesus, or what the root issue is that caused the sin in the first place. But the Holy Spirit knows each person/situation intimately, and knows exactly what is needed to bring healing, wholeness and restoration. It will not be a "cookie cutter" answer.. if a, then b... that's man's way... that's why I keep encouraging us (the crc) to EAGERLY DESIRE this gift of prophesy. We cannot know every situation we will encounter, but He does!
God is a creative God, and I believe He is encouraging us to "listen" for His specific guidance in each situation. His guidance will always line up with His Word.
Hmmm... as I was thinking about this, maybe there should be an anonymous type prophetic "council" that receives the facts and then listens for guidance from the Holy Spirit on how to bring healing to the situation. So, maybe there is a "go to" person in each classis, where pastors can "confess" their unholiness, whatever it might be, and then the "go to" person can bring the facts without the names/place to this "council", and they "process" the facts as they listen to the Spirit, and then it goes back through the classis guy, and then to the pastor and his accountability group, which there will most likely be one recommended, if there wasn't one before. But one of the keys to healing is that the person needing healing is "listening" with the team as well...
I have been involved in inner healing ministries (not in the crc though), and these are powerful. As a team, we listen to the Holy Spirit together, and help someone get to the root of their issues. It's profound. We have had people share, that what they have spent years in counseling for, we get through in several hours, as well as other amazing testimonies of helping bring healing from a difficult situation . It's hard, and it's intense, but it's incredible. That's the Holy Spirit, and He's the Counselor!!!
maybe we need to implement the Catholic confessional ; ) !! or maybe we should just send our "problems" to them for confessions?
well, our battle is not with flesh and blood, and when we recognize that it's the enemy that the "sinner" has allowed themself to come in agreement with, that often takes the hostility away from being directed toward the sinner. It's just if their heart is hard and unrepentant, and they don't take any responsibility themself, then it's harder to be gracious =/... well, then they usually aren't ready for help, and one of the more extreme "excommunication" type responses might be necessary. Again, the Holy Spirit will know what level of being "expelled" will bring the repentance.
I believe if the person is being convicted by the Holy Spirit, they will also usually be convicted to step down for a while, because they know their leadership at that time is probably not in the best interest of the Bride.
and we can only do any of this with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I believe with all my heart, that the LORD is calling His Bride to holiness, particularly the leaders. If the leaders are not walking in holiness, they are hindering the entire assembly/congregation/denomination/whatever sphere of influence they have, and this is just one issue. I'm not sure we understand very well why holiness is so important...anyway, lots of thoughts...
The flame shall not hurt thee, I only design, thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine... He's purifying His Bride.
Some "sharp" insight, Doug... it seems the "sword" mentioned in Hebrews 4:12 is doing some dividing between "soul and spirit", "bone and marrow" and now "justice and mercy" =)...
I think you hit on a key thought with how mercy is meant to be done voluntarily based on biblical love and unity (God's way), not forced (man's way?). and i wonder if "social justice" aka "rights based justice" (is that a fair equation?) is part of the reason "entitlement" seems to be so rampant.
keep asking questions like these, John! sharpen and challenge us to think about what God intended leadership to look like... as a crc task force is currently looking at the culture and structure of our denomination, I hope they are asking similar questions... Would love to hear any thoughts from others on the points/questions John brings us through his comment here...
Hi Greg... it looks like that link is no longer available as they (CAC) have recently (in June) redone their website with a different web address, and I can't find the quote anymore... it was a quote regarding the prophets then, prophets now conference Richard Rohr did back in 2006... here's the new website and at the bottom of this link you will see that Richard dates it June 2012... it seems he is much more focused on contemplation and mysticism now (seems more new age, but they do still reference scripture and God), and it looks like he has just started a new school on contemplation... I didn't see any mention of prophets or the prophetic on the new site...
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
so, is anyone interested in pursuing "deliverance" as a viable option? has anyone ever tried this, whether or not it was succesful, or is dealing with these type of issues/sins primarily through "psychological" type intervention?
Is something holding us back on "deliverance'?
If it seems I'm "singling" out spiritual leaders, it's because that is the point of this particular discussion... pastors with porn/lust/sexual immorality struggles... we're not discussing gossip/slander on this thread, we're not discussing lay people here, although these maybe should be discussed in some forum as well, but the point of this thread is pastors aka spiritual leaders and porn.
Again, I go back to our walk with the Holy Spirit, or lack there of. Does anyone agree, we might have missed something here? or am i alone out in left field or beyond? I believe this is part of the root issue why something like porn is such a significant problem. But I'm open to being wrong...
I ask this respectfully, with the hope of having a sharpening discussion... iron sharpens iron, and we need to see if our sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and His gifts (and I have encountered resistance to them), might be part of the problem. Because if it is, and we're not willing to recognize that possibility... we're as good as dead... we can have a man run institution using our intellect and natural ability that we call the crc, but the life and power of the Spirit will not be in it if we are not willing to repent of where we have quenched Him.. we can even make it appear "successful" and "healthy" to some degree, but as we know, our denom. and others like us are dying... and we are still trying to figure out why.
I apologize, if this seems strong, but to me it's the "white" elephant that needs to be discussed in the denom. There is so much potential, if we are willing to walk much more fully in the Spirit and His gifts.
Posted in: Synod World Missions: Missionaries to Raise 90% of Their Salaries
As far as I know, every level of YWAM missionaries raise their own support... this is the case with a number of other ministries as well as Steve mentions... I see it on a local level with young people raising support as they are called as intercessory missionaries and involved with the local prayer center where I'm on the board... now try raising support for that!!
one of the things this enables YWAM to do, is that they help hundreds of families with affordable adoptions, several social workers/attorneys raise their own support and then give their time to the adoption process... and affordable adoptions is a justice issue.
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
ok Shawn, I just read Keith's permission to broaden the discussion =)... which I missed or it didn't catch my attention the first time I read that...
So I do believe the root of many issues/addictions/sins is our lack of understanding of the Holy Spirit and His gifts. I would love to see deliverance used for many who are struggling, because our whole awareness of the demonic realm, of spiritual warfare is very limited from my experience in the crc... almost anytime I even bring up the demonic, one of the first comments back is "well some people think there's a demon behind every bush", and to me it seems we might be at the the other extreme, that hey, this is America, they don't exist here.
and the gift of prophecy is something I'm desperate for in His Bride, and our crc as part of that Bride... this is the key gift that edifies and builds up His Church. Yes, unfortunately there has been lots of damage with the gift, but I believe that's because we don't know how to test and discern when someone shares an "alleged" word from the LORD. Again, God is up front with us telling us, we will have to test them.
What if have found in my experience being involved in a local prayer center, is that for a substantial number of believers, time in prayer, worship and in the Word is limited... this was a statistic of 2000 spiritual leaders (sorry, I'm not picking on them, it's just the statistic that sticks in my mind), is that 95% of them spend less than 5 minutes a day in prayer. Through involvement with the prayer center, we find this to be true at many levels. Prayer is not valued in our "can do" society, and we/the Bride is suffering because we are not spending time with Jesus. When the LORD stirred up my prayer life, it made night and day difference in my walk with Him. That's also when I discovered the Holy Spirit at new levels, I never heard talked about in crc circles, or if the topic was brought up, the subject was quickly changed. \
The good news is we have young adults in their 20's who do get prayer, and are spending 10-30 hours a week worshipping and crying out to Him. We are seeing God move through various spheres of society in powerful ways and it's very exciting. I have been involved with healing prayer ministries... this is something new for many in the crc, and we still have a lot to learn (and we might have to humble ourselves and learn it from other denominations that have been walking in this much longer than we have). I run into a lot of intellectual skepticism, but I also get to be encouraged when I find someone like minded who has experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in ways that can only be God.
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
wow, you are brave =)...
what might be a fairly simple solution to start with, is encouraging congregations to put a program such as "covenant eyes" on any church computer (or every member agrees to put it on their computer, so everyone is held to the same accountability, now that would be something =). It doesn't deal with the temptation or if there is a deeper issue, but it might be a simple place to start.
http://www.covenanteyes.com/blog/about-covenant-eyes/
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
beautiful, Rachel, bless your heart for sharing this very personal testimony... God's been emphasizing that scripture to me this year... we are new creations in Christ, the old is gone! PTL!!
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
WOW! PTL!!! I don't know if you had made those 2 significant confessions before, but because you confessed these "sins" to other believers, I wouldn't be surprised to hear your healing to significantly increase and pick up speed and you have some significant breakthroughs soon! For His glory and our good!!!!
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
Thanks Keith... covenant eyes is more than filters (you can choose no filters with it if you want)... covenant eyes tracks where you go on the internet, and then sends that report to your accountability partner(s) aka elders maybe =).
here's a bit from the link!
Accountability Service
Blocking software is very useful but it has its limits. Over a decade ago we pioneered a new service called Internet Accountability Software to help people fight online temptations.
This service simply monitors everywhere you go online. It doesn’t block anything. A rating is then assigned to every web address based on objectionable material, and the information is compiled into easy-to-read reports. Reports are sent via e-mail to anyone you wish to see it.
Parents can then use these reports to have good conversations with their kids about where they go online. Friends can help friends discuss the temptations they face online and how the Internet impacts their relationships and their lives offline.
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
Praise the LORD, Shawn, that's why we have the Holy Spirit, so He can guide us through each situation with its unique variables and unique people that are involved. What might work well for one, might not work for the next even if the situation is similar, due to different personality issues or where they are in there walk with Jesus, or what the root issue is that caused the sin in the first place. But the Holy Spirit knows each person/situation intimately, and knows exactly what is needed to bring healing, wholeness and restoration. It will not be a "cookie cutter" answer.. if a, then b... that's man's way... that's why I keep encouraging us (the crc) to EAGERLY DESIRE this gift of prophesy. We cannot know every situation we will encounter, but He does!
God is a creative God, and I believe He is encouraging us to "listen" for His specific guidance in each situation. His guidance will always line up with His Word.
Hmmm... as I was thinking about this, maybe there should be an anonymous type prophetic "council" that receives the facts and then listens for guidance from the Holy Spirit on how to bring healing to the situation. So, maybe there is a "go to" person in each classis, where pastors can "confess" their unholiness, whatever it might be, and then the "go to" person can bring the facts without the names/place to this "council", and they "process" the facts as they listen to the Spirit, and then it goes back through the classis guy, and then to the pastor and his accountability group, which there will most likely be one recommended, if there wasn't one before. But one of the keys to healing is that the person needing healing is "listening" with the team as well...
I have been involved in inner healing ministries (not in the crc though), and these are powerful. As a team, we listen to the Holy Spirit together, and help someone get to the root of their issues. It's profound. We have had people share, that what they have spent years in counseling for, we get through in several hours, as well as other amazing testimonies of helping bring healing from a difficult situation . It's hard, and it's intense, but it's incredible. That's the Holy Spirit, and He's the Counselor!!!
maybe we need to implement the Catholic confessional ; ) !! or maybe we should just send our "problems" to them for confessions?
well, our battle is not with flesh and blood, and when we recognize that it's the enemy that the "sinner" has allowed themself to come in agreement with, that often takes the hostility away from being directed toward the sinner. It's just if their heart is hard and unrepentant, and they don't take any responsibility themself, then it's harder to be gracious =/... well, then they usually aren't ready for help, and one of the more extreme "excommunication" type responses might be necessary. Again, the Holy Spirit will know what level of being "expelled" will bring the repentance.
I believe if the person is being convicted by the Holy Spirit, they will also usually be convicted to step down for a while, because they know their leadership at that time is probably not in the best interest of the Bride.
and we can only do any of this with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I believe with all my heart, that the LORD is calling His Bride to holiness, particularly the leaders. If the leaders are not walking in holiness, they are hindering the entire assembly/congregation/denomination/whatever sphere of influence they have, and this is just one issue. I'm not sure we understand very well why holiness is so important...anyway, lots of thoughts...
The flame shall not hurt thee, I only design, thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine... He's purifying His Bride.
How Firm a Foundation/Malachi 3:2-3
Posted in: Political Diversity
Some "sharp" insight, Doug... it seems the "sword" mentioned in Hebrews 4:12 is doing some dividing between "soul and spirit", "bone and marrow" and now "justice and mercy" =)...
I think you hit on a key thought with how mercy is meant to be done voluntarily based on biblical love and unity (God's way), not forced (man's way?). and i wonder if "social justice" aka "rights based justice" (is that a fair equation?) is part of the reason "entitlement" seems to be so rampant.
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
keep asking questions like these, John! sharpen and challenge us to think about what God intended leadership to look like... as a crc task force is currently looking at the culture and structure of our denomination, I hope they are asking similar questions... Would love to hear any thoughts from others on the points/questions John brings us through his comment here...
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
Hi Greg... it looks like that link is no longer available as they (CAC) have recently (in June) redone their website with a different web address, and I can't find the quote anymore... it was a quote regarding the prophets then, prophets now conference Richard Rohr did back in 2006... here's the new website and at the bottom of this link you will see that Richard dates it June 2012... it seems he is much more focused on contemplation and mysticism now (seems more new age, but they do still reference scripture and God), and it looks like he has just started a new school on contemplation... I didn't see any mention of prophets or the prophetic on the new site...
http://cac.org/dm-themes
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
thx. Doug, appreciate you thinking about this and sharing your insight...