Bev Sterk

Praise the LORD, Shawn, that's why we have the Holy Spirit, so He can guide us through each situation with its unique variables and unique people that are involved.  What might work well for one, might not work for the next even if the situation is similar, due to different personality issues or where they are in there walk with Jesus, or what the root issue is that caused the sin in the first place.   But the Holy Spirit knows each person/situation intimately, and knows exactly what is needed to bring healing, wholeness and restoration.  It will not be a "cookie cutter" answer.. if a, then b... that's man's way...   that's why I keep encouraging us (the crc) to EAGERLY DESIRE this gift of prophesy.  We cannot know every situation we will encounter, but He does!

God is a creative God, and I believe He is encouraging us to "listen" for His specific guidance in each situation.  His guidance will always line up with His Word. 

Hmmm... as I was thinking about this, maybe there should be an anonymous type prophetic "council" that receives the facts and then listens for guidance from the Holy Spirit on how to bring healing to the situation.    So, maybe there is a "go to" person in each classis, where pastors can "confess" their unholiness, whatever it might be, and then the "go to" person can bring the facts without the names/place to this "council", and they "process" the facts as they listen to the Spirit, and then it goes back through the classis guy, and then to the pastor and his accountability group, which there will most likely be one recommended, if there wasn't one before.   But one of the keys to healing is that the person needing healing is "listening" with the team as well...

I have been involved in inner healing ministries (not in the crc though), and these are powerful.  As a team, we listen to the Holy Spirit together, and help someone get to the root of their issues.  It's profound.  We have had people share, that what they have spent years in counseling for, we get through in several hours, as well as other amazing testimonies of helping bring healing from a difficult situation .  It's hard, and it's intense, but it's incredible.  That's the Holy Spirit, and He's the Counselor!!!

maybe we need to implement the Catholic confessional  ; ) !!  or maybe we should just send our "problems" to them for confessions?

well, our battle is not with flesh and blood, and when we recognize that it's the enemy that the "sinner" has allowed themself to come in agreement with, that often takes the hostility away from being directed toward the sinner.   It's just if their heart is hard and unrepentant, and they don't take any responsibility themself, then it's harder to be gracious =/...  well, then they usually aren't ready for help, and one of the more extreme "excommunication" type responses might be necessary.    Again, the Holy Spirit will know what level of being "expelled" will bring the repentance.

I believe if the person is being convicted by the Holy Spirit, they will also usually be convicted to step down for a while, because they know their leadership at that time is probably not in the best interest of the Bride.

and we can only do any of this with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I believe with all my heart, that the LORD is calling His Bride to holiness, particularly the leaders.   If the leaders are not walking in holiness, they are hindering the entire assembly/congregation/denomination/whatever sphere of influence they have,  and this is just one issue.   I'm not sure we understand very well why holiness is so important...anyway, lots of thoughts...

The flame shall not hurt thee, I only design, thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine...   He's purifying His Bride.

How Firm a Foundation/Malachi 3:2-3

Some "sharp" insight, Doug... it seems the "sword" mentioned in Hebrews 4:12 is doing some dividing between "soul and spirit", "bone and marrow" and now "justice and mercy" =)...

I think you hit on a key thought with how mercy is meant to be done voluntarily based on biblical love and unity (God's way), not forced (man's way?).  and i wonder if "social justice" aka "rights based justice" (is that a fair equation?) is part of the reason "entitlement" seems to be so rampant.

Good thoughts John... Thanks for taking the time to think about this and respond.  I have just started studying Samuel as prophet (and seer, now there's a term we don't use too often)... I am particularly looking for indicators of his prayer life, and so as I was reading Samuel earlier today, and in 1 Samuel 7:5-17, it talks about Samuel interceding on behalf of the people, with a footnote that says, prophets had a special responsibility to be intercessors for God's people.  hmmm...  i think there is a high correlation between a person's prayer life and the release/level of prophetic gifting in their life.   that's my hypothesis, and so now I'm studying the prophets to see how true that is.  and love any and all the input from everyone that would like to share their thoughts!!  or maybe someone's written a book about this already, that I'm not aware of  =)...

Thx. John Vandonk for sharing re Richard Rohr and prophets then, prophets now.  I would love to hear how you heard about him, and if you went to or heard the conf., would you be willing to share which speakers/session you found particularly helpful, and what you believe God is sharing with us through this.  I find that testimony so fascinating.   If you would rather share this directly with me, instead of on a public forum, please contact me via my contact link on my info page.  I have been researching the prophetic gifting and the role of prophet for the last several years, and so any and all input is helpful. 

I agree with RR that the office of prophet is a missing "link" in the church of today.   and agree as the following quote mentions and 2 Kings 9:10 confirms, it is an office (and a gift), that is not especially appreciated or understood today.

Quote from this link http://archive.cacradicalgrace.org/conferences/prophets/prophets_overview.html 

BOQ...Although the Jewish prophets were the authoritative teachers of Israel and St. Paul lists the prophet as the second most important role in the church, they are largely unknown and almost always undesired. The role itself is ignored in Jesus, even though he claims it.

How could this happen? 

Could this be the missing link which explains much of the impotence of modern religion?  Is recovering the prophetic role a key to church and cultural renewal?  EOQ

Thanks Rob, as I've been pondering this discussion on women... A Christian Discussion on Women in Office | CRC Network (crcna.org) ...I believe that the prophetic is an important aspect that needs to be a part of the discussion along with metanoia for how we have quenched the gifts of the Holy Spirit through women...  so I thought I would take a look at this post & comments from over 12 years ago & saw that you had posted your comment on this thread when you started a new discussion post...

warning... another firehose with >1,500 words + links... I might copy this to the other post at some point, maybe break it up into smaller portions, I don't know...  the discussion of role of women in the church is not in a vacuum, it is interconnected with other aspects that I have been wrestling with regarding the state of the Church for the last 15 years... it's been quite a journey, so this response includes a few more aspects. what I have found disrupts the status quo of power & position of Christian leaders/institutions... gatekeepers tend to censor & silence those who are a threat to their power/job!

I have to say from my experiences, perspective & anecdotal testimonies people have shared with me, it seems we/CRC have gone backwards on the prophetic since I posted this in 2012.

As I think about how the Holy Spirit works, including through the prophetic voices of women, I weep along with Kathy & hurt along with Hetty, how our voices/gifts have been silenced & dismissed over the ages, even the prophetic, limiting the Holy One of Israel working through us in ways (which we can limit/quench God/Holy Spirit per 1 Thess 5 even though He's sovereign).

Over the last few days, as I took another look at Deborah & Barak, something I had missed before, hit me intensely this time... the prophetic collaboration & celebration between Deborah & Barak is how we are meant to minister together in the Eklessia. Instead, this story has been used by many to say that the only reason God used a woman was because the men who were supposed to lead, were abdicating their God given responsibilities (I'm not saying that men never abdicate, sadly, that's part of why the Church is in the state it's in today, but that's not the story of Deborah & Barak if we are willing to take another look at it). Instead, the door has been almost completely closed to the council room for women's (prophetic) voices to be consistently included in the discussions and decisions. This has quenched the Holy Spirit through women's voices over the ages, especially after 315 AD. Women being included at the table for worship, ministry, prayer & prophesying is a clear biblical part of the church per Acts 1, Romans 16, 1 Cor 11-14, Philip's prophetic daughters, etc. Not having women's voices consistently included over the ages has harmed the Body of Christ & the whole world (saw a picture this morning of a young Iranian woman that got 72 lashes on her back for not having her hair properly covered. A growing number of people in Iran - which is considered to have the fastest growing Church in the world over the last several years, are pleading for our (the west/US/Canada) help to overthrow the authoritarian oppressive religious regime that many are suffering under - again, another discussion, but this is part of what compels me to advocate & pray on behalf of women, in the CRC, the Church & around the world)!

I echo Kathy's concerns about justice & our/Churches prophetic role to the world that we, the Body of Christ have & we are still abdicating in various ways, particularly regarding women and abuses of power! It has been mostly women's voices that have brought these injustices to our attention. Why? If men are supposed to protect & provide, why is it mostly women speaking up about the injustices & making a difference on behalf of women? How did we get here? Saying "not all men" silences abuse survivors & diminishes the problems... of course it's not all men, but enough, that are adding to the harm instead of bringing healing... For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, Saying, ‘Peace, peace!’ When there is no peace. Jer 8:11NKJV

I believe part of the reason for the heartbreaking state of the Church these days is that the prophetic, especially through women, has been quenched/silenced in various ways for a long, long time! Women have had to use our prophetic voices in other places/spaces while the church continues to abdicate our responsibility to do justice/bring deep healing per Jer 8:11... again, particularly concerning women & abuses of power. Sadly, women's prophetic voices on behalf of other women gets called "feminism"! Woe to the men who have abdicated their responsibility to protect & provide justice/protection for women & the vulnerable!

Porn rates in the church are horrific... this adds to the abuse of the vulnerable, the very opposite of protecting & providing for them! So many men/leaders in the church are compromised by porn, which is sex trafficking & adultery! The CRC is almost completely silent on this... the Human Sexuality report addressed porn a bit, but I give it an F bc the committee refused to name it as adultery & refused to encourage any consequences in holding complicit leaders accountable!  Why? Why did the committee omit any consequences for such destructive ungodly conduct by leaders?  I'm thankful that Synod 2022 made a statement recognizing it as a violation of the 7th commandment, but still waiting to see if it makes any difference...

BOQ ...synod decided to “solemnly take note of the pervasive sin of pornography and its harm and lead our churches into repentance and healing.” Further, it included pornography in the list of sexual sins that are understood to be included in the Heidelberg Catechism’s reference to “unchastity” and that violate the Seventh Commandment. Synod decided that the church’s teaching on these sins is the CRC’s interpretation of a confession, and synod said that “therefore it has confessional status.” EOQ

so far deafening silence! I would love to be wrong, so if I'm wrong, please show me! Instead, what I continue to see is an obsession with SSM while ignoring the porn pandemic that is pervasive in the church, warping minds regarding women, allowing a spirit of deception to continue, quenching the Spirit, etc. What I also continue to see is Chr. leaders excusing abdicating the responsibility to pursue justice regarding abuses of power, with saying we just have to wait for God to bring justice.

Is this why women's voices aren't welcome? Because we will say, there's a problem here, ie porn, abuses of power, when some/many leaders don't want to acknowledge/address some of these problems bc so many are complicit? I hear/see statements denying, deflecting, dismissing, defending the lack of action -  After all, we should give each other grace! Again, silencing prophetic voices exposing the sin. Evangelicals Shouldn’t Criticize Evangelicalism (Unless the Evangel Really Matters) | Christianity Today

All women would love to see more men being advocates for justice, faithful to their families, honorable husbands, noble protectors, selfless servants like Christ... It's been 2000 years, & we have just recognized that women have equal inherent value as the men in the last 50 years! In the last few years, the world is actually going backwards re: Afghanistan & women being prohibited from education beyond elementary, Iran & the morality police arresting/beating/killing women that revealed any of their hair has lead to protests, & SBC has been quicker to discipline churches with women pastors than pastors of churches who used their power to sexually abuse children & women over the years! The Southern Baptist Convention ousts 5 woman-led churches : NPR

anyway back to women's voices & the prophetic...

I Cor 14* is meant to be very inclusive that EVERYONE/EACH has something to offer so that ALL may learn (no differentiation of gender in those verses - *v33-35 to be discussed at some point in the future), but our church gatherings/councils have not been conducive to include women's voices for the most part, in fact the opposite has been the case for the most part, intentionally & institutionally blocking women's voices at the table!

in my experience, the prophetic is rarely brought up unless there's an agenda behind it, not encouraged, not taught on, rarely recognized. We/CRC have a history of cessationism that is still limiting us - even though, amazingly, we admitted we were wrong via Synod 1973, FIFTY YEARS AGO, the Spirit continued to be quenched (an entire discussion on its own)... so we still need to repent of quenching the Holy Spirit, especially through prophecy, which we are to eagerly desire. Prophecy is NOT to be conflated with preaching (another discussion). I have experienced some painful brick walls of cessationism in the CRC over the last 15 or so years. My experiences made me realize it is still a thing in the CRC to some extent, recognizing there has been some progress, but I have also seen regression. The state of the CRC/Church has been deeply concerning/grievous for me for the last 15 years or so!

In conclusion: we have a history of quenching women's voices & quenching the Holy Spirit that needs profound "metanoia"... 

Metanoia: Moving Beyond Mere Repentance | CRC Network (crcna.org)

thanks John for your response... I wasn't asking should we "more" eagerly desire it than everything else, but do we desire it at all, and how eager is that desire...  and your questions of at what level (ie crc leaders, pastors, elders, individuals) could all have different answers...

no, I don't want to have prophets that just "tickle our ears" and tell us what we want to hear, but maybe that is what some want, but I hope not... that is an entire discussion in itself...  that's one of the reasons why I struggle with such techniques as "appreciative inquiry"... are we so fragile (or maybe it's pride) that we can't take any criticism, any pointing out of where we have fallen short for the purpose of repentance and healing, so we can walk more fully in God's intended plan for us.  If we are unwilling to acknowledge where we have been wrong, or missed something, and therefore are not walking in alignment with the Spirit in an area, we cannot move forward much, if at all. 

I think of 2 very different responses in Acts when it says the people listening were "cut to the heart"... one is Acts 2:37-42 where the response to Peter's message that they had killed Jesus, was "what shall we do" and they gladly received his word and were baptized, the second is in Acts 8:54-60 in response to Stephen's message, here they were also "Cut to the heart" but this group gnashed at him with their teeth, and stoned him...  both groups of people were "cut to the heart", but the responses were very, very different.

So are you reading 2 Chron 20 next?  that is one of my favorite stories of communal fasting and prayer and worship =)

2 Chron 18 is an interesting perspective on prophets and how God put a "lying spirit" in the mouth of the king's prophets...   I think that shows us why testing the prophetic is so important... I don't think it should cause us to shut the door on it, though.  Jehoshapahat discerned the king's prophets were lying and only telling Ahab what he wanted to hear... Jehoshaphat is an interesting king... 

I ask these questions, because so far what I have generally found for the most part, is that the prophetic has not been encouraged and instead discouraged... but I'm not sure if that is just my experience, or is that generally the case in the crc...