I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
Good thoughts John... Thanks for taking the time to think about this and respond. I have just started studying Samuel as prophet (and seer, now there's a term we don't use too often)... I am particularly looking for indicators of his prayer life, and so as I was reading Samuel earlier today, and in 1 Samuel 7:5-17, it talks about Samuel interceding on behalf of the people, with a footnote that says, prophets had a special responsibility to be intercessors for God's people. hmmm... i think there is a high correlation between a person's prayer life and the release/level of prophetic gifting in their life. that's my hypothesis, and so now I'm studying the prophets to see how true that is. and love any and all the input from everyone that would like to share their thoughts!! or maybe someone's written a book about this already, that I'm not aware of =)...
Thx. John Vandonk for sharing re Richard Rohr and prophets then, prophets now. I would love to hear how you heard about him, and if you went to or heard the conf., would you be willing to share which speakers/session you found particularly helpful, and what you believe God is sharing with us through this. I find that testimony so fascinating. If you would rather share this directly with me, instead of on a public forum, please contact me via my contact link on my info page. I have been researching the prophetic gifting and the role of prophet for the last several years, and so any and all input is helpful.
I agree with RR that the office of prophet is a missing "link" in the church of today. and agree as the following quote mentions and 2 Kings 9:10 confirms, it is an office (and a gift), that is not especially appreciated or understood today.
BOQ...Although the Jewish prophets were the authoritative teachers of Israel and St. Paul lists the prophet as the second most important role in the church, they are largely unknown and almost always undesired. The role itself is ignored in Jesus, even though he claims it.
How could this happen?
Could this be the missing link which explains much of the impotence of modern religion? Is recovering the prophetic role a key to church and cultural renewal? EOQ
thanks John for your response... I wasn't asking should we "more" eagerly desire it than everything else, but do we desire it at all, and how eager is that desire... and your questions of at what level (ie crc leaders, pastors, elders, individuals) could all have different answers...
no, I don't want to have prophets that just "tickle our ears" and tell us what we want to hear, but maybe that is what some want, but I hope not... that is an entire discussion in itself... that's one of the reasons why I struggle with such techniques as "appreciative inquiry"... are we so fragile (or maybe it's pride) that we can't take any criticism, any pointing out of where we have fallen short for the purpose of repentance and healing, so we can walk more fully in God's intended plan for us. If we are unwilling to acknowledge where we have been wrong, or missed something, and therefore are not walking in alignment with the Spirit in an area, we cannot move forward much, if at all.
I think of 2 very different responses in Acts when it says the people listening were "cut to the heart"... one is Acts 2:37-42 where the response to Peter's message that they had killed Jesus, was "what shall we do" and they gladly received his word and were baptized, the second is in Acts 8:54-60 in response to Stephen's message, here they were also "Cut to the heart" but this group gnashed at him with their teeth, and stoned him... both groups of people were "cut to the heart", but the responses were very, very different.
So are you reading 2 Chron 20 next? that is one of my favorite stories of communal fasting and prayer and worship =)
2 Chron 18 is an interesting perspective on prophets and how God put a "lying spirit" in the mouth of the king's prophets... I think that shows us why testing the prophetic is so important... I don't think it should cause us to shut the door on it, though. Jehoshapahat discerned the king's prophets were lying and only telling Ahab what he wanted to hear... Jehoshaphat is an interesting king...
I ask these questions, because so far what I have generally found for the most part, is that the prophetic has not been encouraged and instead discouraged... but I'm not sure if that is just my experience, or is that generally the case in the crc...
Thanks Rob, as I've been pondering this discussion on women... A Christian Discussion on Women in Office | CRC Network (crcna.org) ...I believe that the prophetic is an important aspect that needs to be a part of the discussion along with metanoia for how we have quenched the gifts of the Holy Spirit through women... so I thought I would take a look at this post & comments from over 12 years ago & saw that you had posted your comment on this thread when you started a new discussion post...
warning... another firehose with >1,500 words + links... I might copy this to the other post at some point, maybe break it up into smaller portions, I don't know... the discussion of role of women in the church is not in a vacuum, it is interconnected with other aspects that I have been wrestling with regarding the state of the Church for the last 15 years... it's been quite a journey, so this response includes a few more aspects. what I have found disrupts the status quo of power & position of Christian leaders/institutions... gatekeepers tend to censor & silence those who are a threat to their power/job!
I have to say from my experiences, perspective & anecdotal testimonies people have shared with me, it seems we/CRC have gone backwards on the prophetic since I posted this in 2012.
As I think about how the Holy Spirit works, including through the prophetic voices of women, I weep along with Kathy & hurt along with Hetty, how our voices/gifts have been silenced & dismissed over the ages, even the prophetic, limiting the Holy One of Israel working through us in ways (which we can limit/quench God/Holy Spirit per 1 Thess 5 even though He's sovereign).
Over the last few days, as I took another look at Deborah & Barak, something I had missed before, hit me intensely this time... the prophetic collaboration & celebration between Deborah & Barak is how we are meant to minister together in the Eklessia. Instead, this story has been used by many to say that the only reason God used a woman was because the men who were supposed to lead, were abdicating their God given responsibilities (I'm not saying that men never abdicate, sadly, that's part of why the Church is in the state it's in today, but that's not the story of Deborah & Barak if we are willing to take another look at it). Instead, the door has been almost completely closed to the council room for women's (prophetic) voices to be consistently included in the discussions and decisions. This has quenched the Holy Spirit through women's voices over the ages, especially after 315 AD. Women being included at the table for worship, ministry, prayer & prophesying is a clear biblical part of the church per Acts 1, Romans 16, 1 Cor 11-14, Philip's prophetic daughters, etc. Not having women's voices consistently included over the ages has harmed the Body of Christ & the whole world (saw a picture this morning of a young Iranian woman that got 72 lashes on her back for not having her hair properly covered. A growing number of people in Iran - which is considered to have the fastest growing Church in the world over the last several years, are pleading for our (the west/US/Canada) help to overthrow the authoritarian oppressive religious regime that many are suffering under - again, another discussion, but this is part of what compels me to advocate & pray on behalf of women, in the CRC, the Church & around the world)!
I echo Kathy's concerns about justice & our/Churches prophetic role to the world that we, the Body of Christ have & we are still abdicating in various ways, particularly regarding women and abuses of power! It has been mostly women's voices that have brought these injustices to our attention. Why? If men are supposed to protect & provide, why is it mostly women speaking up about the injustices & making a difference on behalf of women? How did we get here? Saying "not all men" silences abuse survivors & diminishes the problems... of course it's not all men, but enough, that are adding to the harm instead of bringing healing... For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, Saying, ‘Peace, peace!’ When there is no peace. Jer 8:11NKJV
I believe part of the reason for the heartbreaking state of the Church these days is that the prophetic, especially through women, has been quenched/silenced in various ways for a long, long time! Women have had to use our prophetic voices in other places/spaces while the church continues to abdicate our responsibility to do justice/bring deep healing per Jer 8:11... again, particularly concerning women & abuses of power. Sadly, women's prophetic voices on behalf of other women gets called "feminism"! Woe to the men who have abdicated their responsibility to protect & provide justice/protection for women & the vulnerable!
Porn rates in the church are horrific... this adds to the abuse of the vulnerable, the very opposite of protecting & providing for them! So many men/leaders in the church are compromised by porn, which is sex trafficking & adultery! The CRC is almost completely silent on this... the Human Sexuality report addressed porn a bit, but I give it an F bc the committee refused to name it as adultery & refused to encourage any consequences in holding complicit leaders accountable! Why? Why did the committee omit any consequences for such destructive ungodly conduct by leaders? I'm thankful that Synod 2022 made a statement recognizing it as a violation of the 7th commandment, but still waiting to see if it makes any difference...
BOQ ...synod decided to “solemnly take note of the pervasive sin of pornography and its harm and lead our churches into repentance and healing.” Further, it included pornography in the list of sexual sins that are understood to be included in the Heidelberg Catechism’s reference to “unchastity” and that violate the Seventh Commandment. Synod decided that the church’s teaching on these sins is the CRC’s interpretation of a confession, and synod said that “therefore it has confessional status.” EOQ
so far deafening silence! I would love to be wrong, so if I'm wrong, please show me! Instead, what I continue to see is an obsession with SSM while ignoring the porn pandemic that is pervasive in the church, warping minds regarding women, allowing a spirit of deception to continue, quenching the Spirit, etc. What I also continue to see is Chr. leaders excusing abdicating the responsibility to pursue justice regarding abuses of power, with saying we just have to wait for God to bring justice.
Is this why women's voices aren't welcome? Because we will say, there's a problem here, ie porn, abuses of power, when some/many leaders don't want to acknowledge/address some of these problems bc so many are complicit? I hear/see statements denying, deflecting, dismissing, defending the lack of action - After all, we should give each other grace! Again, silencing prophetic voices exposing the sin. Evangelicals Shouldn’t Criticize Evangelicalism (Unless the Evangel Really Matters) | Christianity Today
All women would love to see more men being advocates for justice, faithful to their families, honorable husbands, noble protectors, selfless servants like Christ... It's been 2000 years, & we have just recognized that women have equal inherent value as the men in the last 50 years! In the last few years, the world is actually going backwards re: Afghanistan & women being prohibited from education beyond elementary, Iran & the morality police arresting/beating/killing women that revealed any of their hair has lead to protests, & SBC has been quicker to discipline churches with women pastors than pastors of churches who used their power to sexually abuse children & women over the years! The Southern Baptist Convention ousts 5 woman-led churches : NPR
anyway back to women's voices & the prophetic...
I Cor 14* is meant to be very inclusive that EVERYONE/EACH has something to offer so that ALL may learn (no differentiation of gender in those verses - *v33-35 to be discussed at some point in the future), but our church gatherings/councils have not been conducive to include women's voices for the most part, in fact the opposite has been the case for the most part, intentionally & institutionally blocking women's voices at the table!
in my experience, the prophetic is rarely brought up unless there's an agenda behind it, not encouraged, not taught on, rarely recognized. We/CRC have a history of cessationism that is still limiting us - even though, amazingly, we admitted we were wrong via Synod 1973, FIFTY YEARS AGO, the Spirit continued to be quenched (an entire discussion on its own)... so we still need to repent of quenching the Holy Spirit, especially through prophecy, which we are to eagerly desire. Prophecy is NOT to be conflated with preaching (another discussion). I have experienced some painful brick walls of cessationism in the CRC over the last 15 or so years. My experiences made me realize it is still a thing in the CRC to some extent, recognizing there has been some progress, but I have also seen regression. The state of the CRC/Church has been deeply concerning/grievous for me for the last 15 years or so!
In conclusion: we have a history of quenching women's voices & quenching the Holy Spirit that needs profound "metanoia"...
Hi John... there's a biblical trend with children that I find very disturbing... Aaron's sons offered unholy fire and were killed, Eli's sons also were disobedient, Samuel's boys didn't do any better, David's kids were not a model family (at all)... and the list goes on... what was the disconnect between godly father and ungodly son... I've been pondering this for a while, and I'm not making much progress... (this was suppose to be a reply to an earlier post on 7.23.12, but it looks like I didn't reply the right way)
smiles =)... Karl, maybe start with sharing the book with other crc leaders in your area that are probably like minded. meet for coffee to discuss the book, pray together seeking His guidance for where God wants you to start. i'm thrilled you are 'thinking' such thoughts!! Will keep praying into this "concept" =)
Karl, I think you are on the right track with what the Holy Spirit just might be up to =)! I attended my first classis as an observer just a few weeks ago, and what you are sharing lines up with what God put on my heart there. I see the timing of your post, as quite a quick answer to some of the prayers the LORD put on my heart then. I will confirm starting with possibly an hour (or more =) of worship & prayer. He put that part on my heart last night at a crc reformation gathering, and so when you shared that today, i believe He's confirming that piece =)
I am excited about the possibilities for our pastors and elders as they sense His leading and guiding, through His Holy Spirit. Keep it up, would love to hear where this goes =)
Good thoughts... enjoy reading your perspectives on this... iron sharpening iron is one of my favorite proverbs, and sometimes it's hard work to wrestle through some of this and figure out what your thoughts are on it, but oh, it is so worth it when the break through comes and you get fresh insight and understanding on something... how precious are Your thoughts, LORD, totally worth the searching and sharpening.
that faith is our work, triggered a memory of reading that in scripture somewhere, but the closest thing I can find right now is Rom 4:5; but it seemed like it was more directly stated than that verse... something like, that is our work, our faith... maybe it was 2 Thess. 1.11 NKJV or 1 Timothy 1:4 NIV... but our "work" definitely includes obedience, whatever that might look like for each person. Definitely the universal calls to obedience such as the 10 commandments - those are a given call for every believer, but also the direct personal calls of Holy Spirit promptings for very specific leading and guidance from Him to carry out specific tasks... like a call to become a pastor or missionary, that's not everyone's call, but it is a personal call for some, or simply a call to pray for someone as directed by the Spirit, maybe a call to fast for a certain time with a specific focus, or a call to worship instead of watch the super bowl, some calls are once in a lifetime and some are for your lifetime, and some are for a season.
that faith is a gift of the Spirit is 1 Cor. 12:9. I agree that to a degree we all have faith, but there are some with an extraordinary measure of faith as a gift from the Holy Spirit... I have been digging into this passage on the gifts from the Holy Spirit a lot as I'm working on getting better understanding of these gifts, particularly the supernatural aspect of them, as that has been a gap in my training... I feel this has been an area where we (CRC) have struggled due to our cessationist tradition, and now we are still very cautious and I often find people in the conservative congregations quite skeptical of any miraculous, "supernatural" manifestation of these gifts... with a polite response of "that's interesting". So I'm always interested when these gifts are brought up in the CRC...hehehehe :)
but back to rewards and motivations, a sermon by Paris Reidhead, an evangelist/revivalist during the 1950-70's, has a very interesting sermon titled... "10 shekels and a shirt", and how a trip to Africa really reversed his whole perspective on his motivation to do good works (on page 5). I'll post the link.. (looks like you can probably even read it in Dutch =)
basically, our motive becomes about that we are Jesus' reward, that our souls are Jesus' reward (Rev. 22:12/Is. 40:10/ I Cor. 15:23), and He deserves the reward for His suffering, that becomes our motive for being obedient, because He is deserving of it and no less (Philippians 2:5-11)... every knee will bow and every tongue will confess whether they are grateful or not... and since we are grateful, we can start now!
I don't think it's wrong if our motives are the rewards...maybe that's a starting place for believers and that could be why it's mentioned several times, and then as we grow in our faith, the LORD works in our hearts as we mature in our walk with Him, and it will become more about His reward than ours. As was mentioned, the Holy Spirit will work on our hearts to convict and correct where we are off. But probably, no matter where you are at on your walk with Him, the thought of rewards is encouraging, that what we are doing is meaningful and eternal... The reward to be with Jesus forever is more than enough, but it's still fun to think about other rewards too! and it helps us focus on what's eternal and what's not... if we thought it didn't make any difference what we do on our journey, we might all be watching Jeopardy or Survivor or playing solitaire most of the time instead of being salt and light in the world, or think that our hour or two on Sunday with Him is enough to show our gratefulness and the rest of the week is for whatever we want. But we know we will be held accountable for what we have been given.
So, let's invest our treasures in heaven/eternity/Jesus.... for there our heart will be also.
there is quite a bit happening in building unity between pastors/churches/ministries in the county. I like that you keep bringing up "make every effort to pursue unity"! I will confirm that I believe God is asking us to be "intentional", "purposed in the Spirit" (Acts 19:21 NKJV)
Prayer seems to be a significant key. I am involved with the Light of the World Prayer Center, which is a county wide prayer center on a crc campus =), but with a variety of denominations/local churches involved. Every month we have about 20-30 of the youth pastors come together for lunch and prayer together and out of that a college focused gathering started last fall with over 50 salvations in the first several months, and usually about 200-300 students coming together once a week.
We have about 50 senior type pastors from the county that are starting to come together for fellowship and prayer. (i'm not sure if it's once a month or once a quarter, but we're praying toward it becoming monthly)
We are working toward having 24/7 worship and prayer going on at several different levels in the county. One level, is we have over 30 churches signed up to cover one full day each month in prayer with specific prayer requests from what we call the 7 spheres ( church, family, government, business, education, health care, and media), so all the churches involved are praying the same thing. Each church can add or edit the requests as fitting for their congregation. We have seen some powerful results in decrease of crime and abortion in our county, and increase of adoption and key drug busts with high level dealers as well as exposing human trafficking involvement.
The second level is that we will have 24/7 worship and prayer on site at the prayer center as well. We have just over 100 hours and are struggling with filling the night watch. At the prayer center once a month, we have 24 hours of continual worship in 12 - 2 hour sets, where different worship teams from various local churches come and lead a set for 2 hours. Each of these "burns" have a specific focus.
a third level is that some of the bigger churches can cover 24/7 with their own church. The one church that we know is doing this has 200 people signed up for 1 hour each week.. wow!!!
In 2 of the county towns we have "seek God for name of town" prayer gatherings, and these are cross denominational as well. This has been interesting as we start to put pieces together of what God has in mind for that region, and we are seeing some convergence of ministry through this. It's the closest thing I've found to a "prophetic table" in the church. The other believers involved are open and sensitive to the listening prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit, and we've had many, many confirmations at this gathering.
The prayer center, (and bless his heart, my pastor does this as well) make a point of praying on behalf of other churches in the area. One of our key requests is that a Spirit of prayer will be poured out in the Church that the level of prayer in the county will increase, and that our congregations will become "houses of prayer". We are also just starting to pursue unity between various ministries... ie. connecting 3-5 different college focused minstry leaders so they can connect with each other and encourage each other and pray together.
the local food pantry is the local crc churches (7 of them) working together, but with many volunteers from other churches as well as donations from every one, schools, churches, AWANA, various ministries, civic groups, etc. The cool thing, is with the spiritual foundation, the gospel is part of the ministry =) !!
We do still run into an attitude from some of this is my territory, and I'm not letting anyone else in, don't step on my toes. the spirit of competition or of fear =( as well as some other discouraging stuff, but that's ok, we know we are in a battle, and it's not against flesh and blood.
the prayer center was recently asked to do a video testimony on the unity that is going on here in Whatcom County, as it seems to be unique. We had a gentleman from Tennessee come visit to see what was going on here, and he sponsored the cost of the video, which was huge (Michael Lienau, who filmed the first Transformation video with George Otis is doing the filming). The testimony will be used at the World Prayer Assembly in Jakarta Indonesia this May, where thousands of prayer leaders from around the world will be gathering. Amazingly, the only requests from the organizers for such presentations from the US were us (we are just a little prayer center) and the Kansas City IHOP. Our executive director will be sharing at the assembly on how God is increasing unity in Whatcom County. It's not a program, it's prayer. It's listening and obeying what we sense to be His leading, and we are experiencing some powerful fruit from our prayer times.
I'm sure I've missed lots as this is just from my perspective and sphere of influence, but these are a few things God is doing here to increase unity in His Bride!
I'm excited about the crc prayer summit this spring... I think that could be a key gathering for the direction of the crc as part of His Bride!
yes, I'm grateful for how God is using Moses in the crc to help encourage prayer (#4), the recent prayer summit was a beautiful testimony of one piece of how God is answering that prayer in our denomination... thank You Jesus, for what you are doing in the crc, as part of Your Bride...
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
Good thoughts John... Thanks for taking the time to think about this and respond. I have just started studying Samuel as prophet (and seer, now there's a term we don't use too often)... I am particularly looking for indicators of his prayer life, and so as I was reading Samuel earlier today, and in 1 Samuel 7:5-17, it talks about Samuel interceding on behalf of the people, with a footnote that says, prophets had a special responsibility to be intercessors for God's people. hmmm... i think there is a high correlation between a person's prayer life and the release/level of prophetic gifting in their life. that's my hypothesis, and so now I'm studying the prophets to see how true that is. and love any and all the input from everyone that would like to share their thoughts!! or maybe someone's written a book about this already, that I'm not aware of =)...
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
Thx. John Vandonk for sharing re Richard Rohr and prophets then, prophets now. I would love to hear how you heard about him, and if you went to or heard the conf., would you be willing to share which speakers/session you found particularly helpful, and what you believe God is sharing with us through this. I find that testimony so fascinating. If you would rather share this directly with me, instead of on a public forum, please contact me via my contact link on my info page. I have been researching the prophetic gifting and the role of prophet for the last several years, and so any and all input is helpful.
I agree with RR that the office of prophet is a missing "link" in the church of today. and agree as the following quote mentions and 2 Kings 9:10 confirms, it is an office (and a gift), that is not especially appreciated or understood today.
Quote from this link http://archive.cacradicalgrace.org/conferences/prophets/prophets_overview.html
BOQ...Although the Jewish prophets were the authoritative teachers of Israel and St. Paul lists the prophet as the second most important role in the church, they are largely unknown and almost always undesired. The role itself is ignored in Jesus, even though he claims it.
How could this happen?
Could this be the missing link which explains much of the impotence of modern religion? Is recovering the prophetic role a key to church and cultural renewal? EOQ
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
ok, s'more questions and thoughts on the prophetic...
1. it is to be eagerly desired (I Cor. 14:1)... so is it? does the crc eagerly desire this gift? Why or why not?
2. are those gifted with the prophetic gifting being encouraged in their gifting, and if so, how?
3. are those gifted with the prophetic gifting being equipped to understand and walk in their gifting, and if so, how?
... and if not to #2 & 3, then why not?
thanks to all of you for your input thus far... it is very helpful and insightful..
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
thanks John for your response... I wasn't asking should we "more" eagerly desire it than everything else, but do we desire it at all, and how eager is that desire... and your questions of at what level (ie crc leaders, pastors, elders, individuals) could all have different answers...
no, I don't want to have prophets that just "tickle our ears" and tell us what we want to hear, but maybe that is what some want, but I hope not... that is an entire discussion in itself... that's one of the reasons why I struggle with such techniques as "appreciative inquiry"... are we so fragile (or maybe it's pride) that we can't take any criticism, any pointing out of where we have fallen short for the purpose of repentance and healing, so we can walk more fully in God's intended plan for us. If we are unwilling to acknowledge where we have been wrong, or missed something, and therefore are not walking in alignment with the Spirit in an area, we cannot move forward much, if at all.
I think of 2 very different responses in Acts when it says the people listening were "cut to the heart"... one is Acts 2:37-42 where the response to Peter's message that they had killed Jesus, was "what shall we do" and they gladly received his word and were baptized, the second is in Acts 8:54-60 in response to Stephen's message, here they were also "Cut to the heart" but this group gnashed at him with their teeth, and stoned him... both groups of people were "cut to the heart", but the responses were very, very different.
So are you reading 2 Chron 20 next? that is one of my favorite stories of communal fasting and prayer and worship =)
2 Chron 18 is an interesting perspective on prophets and how God put a "lying spirit" in the mouth of the king's prophets... I think that shows us why testing the prophetic is so important... I don't think it should cause us to shut the door on it, though. Jehoshapahat discerned the king's prophets were lying and only telling Ahab what he wanted to hear... Jehoshaphat is an interesting king...
I ask these questions, because so far what I have generally found for the most part, is that the prophetic has not been encouraged and instead discouraged... but I'm not sure if that is just my experience, or is that generally the case in the crc...
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
Thanks Rob, as I've been pondering this discussion on women... A Christian Discussion on Women in Office | CRC Network (crcna.org) ...I believe that the prophetic is an important aspect that needs to be a part of the discussion along with metanoia for how we have quenched the gifts of the Holy Spirit through women... so I thought I would take a look at this post & comments from over 12 years ago & saw that you had posted your comment on this thread when you started a new discussion post...
warning... another firehose with >1,500 words + links... I might copy this to the other post at some point, maybe break it up into smaller portions, I don't know... the discussion of role of women in the church is not in a vacuum, it is interconnected with other aspects that I have been wrestling with regarding the state of the Church for the last 15 years... it's been quite a journey, so this response includes a few more aspects. what I have found disrupts the status quo of power & position of Christian leaders/institutions... gatekeepers tend to censor & silence those who are a threat to their power/job!
I have to say from my experiences, perspective & anecdotal testimonies people have shared with me, it seems we/CRC have gone backwards on the prophetic since I posted this in 2012.
As I think about how the Holy Spirit works, including through the prophetic voices of women, I weep along with Kathy & hurt along with Hetty, how our voices/gifts have been silenced & dismissed over the ages, even the prophetic, limiting the Holy One of Israel working through us in ways (which we can limit/quench God/Holy Spirit per 1 Thess 5 even though He's sovereign).
Over the last few days, as I took another look at Deborah & Barak, something I had missed before, hit me intensely this time... the prophetic collaboration & celebration between Deborah & Barak is how we are meant to minister together in the Eklessia. Instead, this story has been used by many to say that the only reason God used a woman was because the men who were supposed to lead, were abdicating their God given responsibilities (I'm not saying that men never abdicate, sadly, that's part of why the Church is in the state it's in today, but that's not the story of Deborah & Barak if we are willing to take another look at it). Instead, the door has been almost completely closed to the council room for women's (prophetic) voices to be consistently included in the discussions and decisions. This has quenched the Holy Spirit through women's voices over the ages, especially after 315 AD. Women being included at the table for worship, ministry, prayer & prophesying is a clear biblical part of the church per Acts 1, Romans 16, 1 Cor 11-14, Philip's prophetic daughters, etc. Not having women's voices consistently included over the ages has harmed the Body of Christ & the whole world (saw a picture this morning of a young Iranian woman that got 72 lashes on her back for not having her hair properly covered. A growing number of people in Iran - which is considered to have the fastest growing Church in the world over the last several years, are pleading for our (the west/US/Canada) help to overthrow the authoritarian oppressive religious regime that many are suffering under - again, another discussion, but this is part of what compels me to advocate & pray on behalf of women, in the CRC, the Church & around the world)!
I echo Kathy's concerns about justice & our/Churches prophetic role to the world that we, the Body of Christ have & we are still abdicating in various ways, particularly regarding women and abuses of power! It has been mostly women's voices that have brought these injustices to our attention. Why? If men are supposed to protect & provide, why is it mostly women speaking up about the injustices & making a difference on behalf of women? How did we get here? Saying "not all men" silences abuse survivors & diminishes the problems... of course it's not all men, but enough, that are adding to the harm instead of bringing healing... For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, Saying, ‘Peace, peace!’ When there is no peace. Jer 8:11NKJV
I believe part of the reason for the heartbreaking state of the Church these days is that the prophetic, especially through women, has been quenched/silenced in various ways for a long, long time! Women have had to use our prophetic voices in other places/spaces while the church continues to abdicate our responsibility to do justice/bring deep healing per Jer 8:11... again, particularly concerning women & abuses of power. Sadly, women's prophetic voices on behalf of other women gets called "feminism"! Woe to the men who have abdicated their responsibility to protect & provide justice/protection for women & the vulnerable!
Porn rates in the church are horrific... this adds to the abuse of the vulnerable, the very opposite of protecting & providing for them! So many men/leaders in the church are compromised by porn, which is sex trafficking & adultery! The CRC is almost completely silent on this... the Human Sexuality report addressed porn a bit, but I give it an F bc the committee refused to name it as adultery & refused to encourage any consequences in holding complicit leaders accountable! Why? Why did the committee omit any consequences for such destructive ungodly conduct by leaders? I'm thankful that Synod 2022 made a statement recognizing it as a violation of the 7th commandment, but still waiting to see if it makes any difference...
BOQ ...synod decided to “solemnly take note of the pervasive sin of pornography and its harm and lead our churches into repentance and healing.” Further, it included pornography in the list of sexual sins that are understood to be included in the Heidelberg Catechism’s reference to “unchastity” and that violate the Seventh Commandment. Synod decided that the church’s teaching on these sins is the CRC’s interpretation of a confession, and synod said that “therefore it has confessional status.” EOQ
so far deafening silence! I would love to be wrong, so if I'm wrong, please show me! Instead, what I continue to see is an obsession with SSM while ignoring the porn pandemic that is pervasive in the church, warping minds regarding women, allowing a spirit of deception to continue, quenching the Spirit, etc. What I also continue to see is Chr. leaders excusing abdicating the responsibility to pursue justice regarding abuses of power, with saying we just have to wait for God to bring justice.
Is this why women's voices aren't welcome? Because we will say, there's a problem here, ie porn, abuses of power, when some/many leaders don't want to acknowledge/address some of these problems bc so many are complicit? I hear/see statements denying, deflecting, dismissing, defending the lack of action - After all, we should give each other grace! Again, silencing prophetic voices exposing the sin. Evangelicals Shouldn’t Criticize Evangelicalism (Unless the Evangel Really Matters) | Christianity Today
All women would love to see more men being advocates for justice, faithful to their families, honorable husbands, noble protectors, selfless servants like Christ... It's been 2000 years, & we have just recognized that women have equal inherent value as the men in the last 50 years! In the last few years, the world is actually going backwards re: Afghanistan & women being prohibited from education beyond elementary, Iran & the morality police arresting/beating/killing women that revealed any of their hair has lead to protests, & SBC has been quicker to discipline churches with women pastors than pastors of churches who used their power to sexually abuse children & women over the years! The Southern Baptist Convention ousts 5 woman-led churches : NPR
anyway back to women's voices & the prophetic...
I Cor 14* is meant to be very inclusive that EVERYONE/EACH has something to offer so that ALL may learn (no differentiation of gender in those verses - *v33-35 to be discussed at some point in the future), but our church gatherings/councils have not been conducive to include women's voices for the most part, in fact the opposite has been the case for the most part, intentionally & institutionally blocking women's voices at the table!
in my experience, the prophetic is rarely brought up unless there's an agenda behind it, not encouraged, not taught on, rarely recognized. We/CRC have a history of cessationism that is still limiting us - even though, amazingly, we admitted we were wrong via Synod 1973, FIFTY YEARS AGO, the Spirit continued to be quenched (an entire discussion on its own)... so we still need to repent of quenching the Holy Spirit, especially through prophecy, which we are to eagerly desire. Prophecy is NOT to be conflated with preaching (another discussion). I have experienced some painful brick walls of cessationism in the CRC over the last 15 or so years. My experiences made me realize it is still a thing in the CRC to some extent, recognizing there has been some progress, but I have also seen regression. The state of the CRC/Church has been deeply concerning/grievous for me for the last 15 years or so!
In conclusion: we have a history of quenching women's voices & quenching the Holy Spirit that needs profound "metanoia"...
Metanoia: Moving Beyond Mere Repentance | CRC Network (crcna.org)
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
Hi John... there's a biblical trend with children that I find very disturbing... Aaron's sons offered unholy fire and were killed, Eli's sons also were disobedient, Samuel's boys didn't do any better, David's kids were not a model family (at all)... and the list goes on... what was the disconnect between godly father and ungodly son... I've been pondering this for a while, and I'm not making much progress... (this was suppose to be a reply to an earlier post on 7.23.12, but it looks like I didn't reply the right way)
Posted in: Spiritual Discernment at Ecclesiastical Assemblies
smiles =)... Karl, maybe start with sharing the book with other crc leaders in your area that are probably like minded. meet for coffee to discuss the book, pray together seeking His guidance for where God wants you to start. i'm thrilled you are 'thinking' such thoughts!! Will keep praying into this "concept" =)
Posted in: Spiritual Discernment at Ecclesiastical Assemblies
Karl, I think you are on the right track with what the Holy Spirit just might be up to =)! I attended my first classis as an observer just a few weeks ago, and what you are sharing lines up with what God put on my heart there. I see the timing of your post, as quite a quick answer to some of the prayers the LORD put on my heart then. I will confirm starting with possibly an hour (or more =) of worship & prayer. He put that part on my heart last night at a crc reformation gathering, and so when you shared that today, i believe He's confirming that piece =)
I am excited about the possibilities for our pastors and elders as they sense His leading and guiding, through His Holy Spirit. Keep it up, would love to hear where this goes =)
Posted in: Spiritual Discernment at Ecclesiastical Assemblies
Hey Karl... it was a delight to meet and share lunch with you at the prayer/Holy Spirit conference in Holland a few weeks ago...
this was the Leadership and Listening book I was referring to... hopefully now that rings a bell again =)
Posted in: The 2 Judgements
Good thoughts... enjoy reading your perspectives on this... iron sharpening iron is one of my favorite proverbs, and sometimes it's hard work to wrestle through some of this and figure out what your thoughts are on it, but oh, it is so worth it when the break through comes and you get fresh insight and understanding on something... how precious are Your thoughts, LORD, totally worth the searching and sharpening.
that faith is our work, triggered a memory of reading that in scripture somewhere, but the closest thing I can find right now is Rom 4:5; but it seemed like it was more directly stated than that verse... something like, that is our work, our faith... maybe it was 2 Thess. 1.11 NKJV or 1 Timothy 1:4 NIV... but our "work" definitely includes obedience, whatever that might look like for each person. Definitely the universal calls to obedience such as the 10 commandments - those are a given call for every believer, but also the direct personal calls of Holy Spirit promptings for very specific leading and guidance from Him to carry out specific tasks... like a call to become a pastor or missionary, that's not everyone's call, but it is a personal call for some, or simply a call to pray for someone as directed by the Spirit, maybe a call to fast for a certain time with a specific focus, or a call to worship instead of watch the super bowl, some calls are once in a lifetime and some are for your lifetime, and some are for a season.
that faith is a gift of the Spirit is 1 Cor. 12:9. I agree that to a degree we all have faith, but there are some with an extraordinary measure of faith as a gift from the Holy Spirit... I have been digging into this passage on the gifts from the Holy Spirit a lot as I'm working on getting better understanding of these gifts, particularly the supernatural aspect of them, as that has been a gap in my training... I feel this has been an area where we (CRC) have struggled due to our cessationist tradition, and now we are still very cautious and I often find people in the conservative congregations quite skeptical of any miraculous, "supernatural" manifestation of these gifts... with a polite response of "that's interesting". So I'm always interested when these gifts are brought up in the CRC...hehehehe :)
but back to rewards and motivations, a sermon by Paris Reidhead, an evangelist/revivalist during the 1950-70's, has a very interesting sermon titled... "10 shekels and a shirt", and how a trip to Africa really reversed his whole perspective on his motivation to do good works (on page 5). I'll post the link.. (looks like you can probably even read it in Dutch =)
.http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/
basically, our motive becomes about that we are Jesus' reward, that our souls are Jesus' reward (Rev. 22:12/Is. 40:10/ I Cor. 15:23), and He deserves the reward for His suffering, that becomes our motive for being obedient, because He is deserving of it and no less (Philippians 2:5-11)... every knee will bow and every tongue will confess whether they are grateful or not... and since we are grateful, we can start now!
I don't think it's wrong if our motives are the rewards...maybe that's a starting place for believers and that could be why it's mentioned several times, and then as we grow in our faith, the LORD works in our hearts as we mature in our walk with Him, and it will become more about His reward than ours. As was mentioned, the Holy Spirit will work on our hearts to convict and correct where we are off. But probably, no matter where you are at on your walk with Him, the thought of rewards is encouraging, that what we are doing is meaningful and eternal... The reward to be with Jesus forever is more than enough, but it's still fun to think about other rewards too! and it helps us focus on what's eternal and what's not... if we thought it didn't make any difference what we do on our journey, we might all be watching Jeopardy or Survivor or playing solitaire most of the time instead of being salt and light in the world, or think that our hour or two on Sunday with Him is enough to show our gratefulness and the rest of the week is for whatever we want. But we know we will be held accountable for what we have been given.
So, let's invest our treasures in heaven/eternity/Jesus.... for there our heart will be also.
thanks for the sharpening!
Posted in: We Can Answer Jesus' Prayer — and Article 3 of the Belhar
there is quite a bit happening in building unity between pastors/churches/ministries in the county. I like that you keep bringing up "make every effort to pursue unity"! I will confirm that I believe God is asking us to be "intentional", "purposed in the Spirit" (Acts 19:21 NKJV)
Prayer seems to be a significant key. I am involved with the Light of the World Prayer Center, which is a county wide prayer center on a crc campus =), but with a variety of denominations/local churches involved. Every month we have about 20-30 of the youth pastors come together for lunch and prayer together and out of that a college focused gathering started last fall with over 50 salvations in the first several months, and usually about 200-300 students coming together once a week.
We have about 50 senior type pastors from the county that are starting to come together for fellowship and prayer. (i'm not sure if it's once a month or once a quarter, but we're praying toward it becoming monthly)
We are working toward having 24/7 worship and prayer going on at several different levels in the county. One level, is we have over 30 churches signed up to cover one full day each month in prayer with specific prayer requests from what we call the 7 spheres ( church, family, government, business, education, health care, and media), so all the churches involved are praying the same thing. Each church can add or edit the requests as fitting for their congregation. We have seen some powerful results in decrease of crime and abortion in our county, and increase of adoption and key drug busts with high level dealers as well as exposing human trafficking involvement.
The second level is that we will have 24/7 worship and prayer on site at the prayer center as well. We have just over 100 hours and are struggling with filling the night watch. At the prayer center once a month, we have 24 hours of continual worship in 12 - 2 hour sets, where different worship teams from various local churches come and lead a set for 2 hours. Each of these "burns" have a specific focus.
a third level is that some of the bigger churches can cover 24/7 with their own church. The one church that we know is doing this has 200 people signed up for 1 hour each week.. wow!!!
In 2 of the county towns we have "seek God for name of town" prayer gatherings, and these are cross denominational as well. This has been interesting as we start to put pieces together of what God has in mind for that region, and we are seeing some convergence of ministry through this. It's the closest thing I've found to a "prophetic table" in the church. The other believers involved are open and sensitive to the listening prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit, and we've had many, many confirmations at this gathering.
The prayer center, (and bless his heart, my pastor does this as well) make a point of praying on behalf of other churches in the area. One of our key requests is that a Spirit of prayer will be poured out in the Church that the level of prayer in the county will increase, and that our congregations will become "houses of prayer". We are also just starting to pursue unity between various ministries... ie. connecting 3-5 different college focused minstry leaders so they can connect with each other and encourage each other and pray together.
the local food pantry is the local crc churches (7 of them) working together, but with many volunteers from other churches as well as donations from every one, schools, churches, AWANA, various ministries, civic groups, etc. The cool thing, is with the spiritual foundation, the gospel is part of the ministry =) !!
We do still run into an attitude from some of this is my territory, and I'm not letting anyone else in, don't step on my toes. the spirit of competition or of fear =( as well as some other discouraging stuff, but that's ok, we know we are in a battle, and it's not against flesh and blood.
the prayer center was recently asked to do a video testimony on the unity that is going on here in Whatcom County, as it seems to be unique. We had a gentleman from Tennessee come visit to see what was going on here, and he sponsored the cost of the video, which was huge (Michael Lienau, who filmed the first Transformation video with George Otis is doing the filming). The testimony will be used at the World Prayer Assembly in Jakarta Indonesia this May, where thousands of prayer leaders from around the world will be gathering. Amazingly, the only requests from the organizers for such presentations from the US were us (we are just a little prayer center) and the Kansas City IHOP. Our executive director will be sharing at the assembly on how God is increasing unity in Whatcom County. It's not a program, it's prayer. It's listening and obeying what we sense to be His leading, and we are experiencing some powerful fruit from our prayer times.
Here's a link to the prayer center website
http://lowpc.org/about
I'm sure I've missed lots as this is just from my perspective and sphere of influence, but these are a few things God is doing here to increase unity in His Bride!
I'm excited about the crc prayer summit this spring... I think that could be a key gathering for the direction of the crc as part of His Bride!
Posted in: Moses Chung's Prayer He Shared With Synod
yes, I'm grateful for how God is using Moses in the crc to help encourage prayer (#4), the recent prayer summit was a beautiful testimony of one piece of how God is answering that prayer in our denomination... thank You Jesus, for what you are doing in the crc, as part of Your Bride...