I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
My comment addresses thoughts about whether these confessions are relevant and how we might struggle with them. I think this thread brings out those concerns, even though maybe it wasn't the primary intent of the article, and maybe these concerns need to be discussed in another thread, but I see questions being stirred up through this discussion.
so one question I have is, where can we discuss our concerns with these confessions? the areas that we struggle with...without being in danger of being tried for heresy? or struggling privately with it for many years, and then leaving the denom. because there's no healthy place to discuss our struggles/doubts. iron sharpens iron, and I think that is something we all want so...
I will risk it here ;)..
I will ris I I would say these documents are mostly relevant at a foundational level (although it would be interesting to have a discussion on the doctrine of election, particularly including those from other denominations, because I cringe sometimes when we arrogantly think we are more "right" than other denoms.... Ez. 18:23-32 comes to mind re election, we could have an interesting discussion on infant baptism as well), but my main struggle with these documents, is that there are gaps - that is what can make them irrelevant regarding certain aspects of scripture...
and so here are a few of my thoughts...
b4 i start, here's a list of acronyms =) just in case... PH = Psalter Hymnal, HC = Heidleberg Catechism, Q&A = question and answer, CD = Canons of Dordt, and BC = Belgic Confession
Ok, this thread prompted me to pull out the PH and read through the HC again, a few nights ago, and also read through the CD and BC... I want to honor the creeds and confessions, and recognize that there is a lot of solid "stuff" (sorry, I'm not going to get too technical) in them and they give a solid foundation to our faith, but there are things I struggle with... the last section of HC Q&A 80, is one example. Another aspect I struggle with, is that there are gaps... for example in Q&A 83, 2 keys of the Kingdom are mentioned, I believe there are several and possibly many more keys, such as love and prayer and obedience and ???,but the HC only mentions 2 here... same w. Q&A 65, are there more ways that our faith is confirmed? When we use the catechism, are we only sticking to those 2 points, or are we expanding it to include more? or do we miss out on other ways, because we just focus on what the catechism gives us?
In the BC, we have support for the offices of pastor, elder and deacon, but what about prophets, evangelists and teachers (and apostles is an entire discussion in itself)?
Then between all of them, I think only the HC briefly mentions the gifts of the Spirit (Q&A51). But what do those gifts include... What is the gift of prophecy? What is a word of wisdom through the Spirit? What is a word of knowledge through the Spirit?
So, as the prophetic gifting is being stirred up these days, these historic confessions and creeds don't give me a whole lot to connect with on this particular aspect, so in this way they are not relevant. Make sense? I hope through the Spirit it does...
so in conclusion, both sides are right... they can be relevant or irrelevant, depending on what we're discussing...
all right, this has opened the door on some other questions, that yes, I think need to be discussed and wrestled with in an honest, open way... I think that will help bring ownership to what we believe, instead of just getting spoon fed the traditional position, however right that might be.
thanks Chad, for your thoughtful reply... if you and family are ever on the less sunny side of the cascades, up in Lynden area, would love to connect with ya'll =)...
I don't agree that some of our positions are as clear as we would like to think... that's why we have so many denominations with varying doctrines on baptism (infant, believer and baptism of the Holy Spirit) election and pre-destination (inclusivism/exclusivism), communion, (symbolic, transubstantiation, consubstantiation, etc), end times (a mill, pre mill, post trib, mid trib etc), because the diversity of doctrines tells me it is not clear, and the biblical support is sometimes stronger for another position. These have been debated over the ages, and we are still debating them with brothers and sisters in Christ. I have some concern for our positions, because of our history of cessationism... how did we get that one so wrong? This was a huge error. If we weren't intentionally listening to the Spirit historically or moving fully in the prophetic gifting for the prior several centuries, how much is our own thinking/understanding, and what was Spirit led? Even 40 years after the crc refuted cessationism, it seems we are still very cautious and skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit, of how God speaks to us through His Spirit, to lead and guide us daily in our walk with Him. I know there are reasons, but we it seems we close the door on it for a variety of reasons, instead of how do we walk in the prophetic gifting in a biblical way.
Now, because God is God, and a generous and gracious God and He loves us as part of His Bride, He has been leading us to some extent through the Spirit, but I can only shake my head with sadness at what we have missed because we have not been intentionally listening to Him through prayer, because we have not been walking in the prophetic gifting that the Spirit has given us (well that depends on one's definition of the prophetic gifting). Cessationism has caused us to significantly miss walking in the power of the Spirit, and instead primarily rely on our intellect.
and since you mentioned the Westminster, so when the Westminster confessions says in Ch 1.I regarding the Holy Scripture... "...those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
" How do you understand, what ways have ceased? was the WC only referring to God inspiring more canon (which we all agree on), or was it referring to God speaking prophetically to us, for a specific time, place, people, etc. (which we don't agree on)? As I understand, this is part of how cessationism became part of our history...
again, not sure if this is the thread to discuss this, but these are questions behind the FOS and COB, i will keep wrestling, but part of that wrestling, is others sharing their insights and how they got to their position on whatever it is, that which is called a testimony =) so keep sharpening and sharing!!
and I'm not so sure, if we do have safety in questioning some deeply held positions when we don't end up at the same place as the confessions, especially if you are a pastor or spiritual leader.
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
Jim, I would love a discussion on cessationism - maybe a different thread, as cessationism is an underlying reason why we might not be open to the prophetic. As Rob alludes to as well, it has been abused, when you get a controlling type leader who abuses it, and a council/congregation that doesn't understand how to test it. A key test is that the person sharing the "insight" is open to having it tested. If they aren't then, that's a pretty indicator that it might not be the LORD.
It seems there are so many misunderstandings surrounding the prophetic, and having a 500 year tradition of cessationism is significant, I think much more so, than we realize. For example, if J Calvin is considered to be the "theologian of the Holy Spirit", and yet was a cessationist, that does not make sense to me (I'm going to do some research on that)...
The good news, is we/crc do have a strong leadership structure in place, instead of a monarchy type arrangement, and we/crc do have strong foundational confessions to keep us together, and as believers, we do all have the same Holy Spirit, so if we are listening to Him together, theoretically, we will come together on whatever issue or question we might have...
I am currently studying the prophets and their prayer life, and seeing a pretty strong correlation...
anyway, lots of food for thought, am very interested in a discussion regarding cessationism/the prophetic for some good sharpening
Thanks Rob... appreciate the thoughts you share, and your background in this... will read the article in a bit, and just curious when you use "CO" is that the new covenant for officebearers or the church order?
Yes, accountability aka testing, is a key to walking in the prophetic on behalf of the Bride of Christ... it cannot be done in a controlling manner... and yes, the personality thing is a problem, as we are always to reflect Christ, we must decrease, become less, and He must increase, become greater...
Again, I truly believe God is converging these streams, the charismatic and the calvinist... we/crc, have much to offer in the way of structure (dba church order), and a solid foundation (aka the creeds and confessions)... and a love for the Word... Scripture is always the plumline - the universal canon, everything must line up with scripture, Who God is as revealed in His Word...
However, we will not walk in the prophetic, if we believe God doesn't "speak" to us anymore, and that's what the cessationist position holds... I think there is confusion here... the God inspired universal canon, the Bible as we know it, is closed. I believe a significant majority (90%+) of both streams agree on this. The Spirit inspired prophetic insights we receive today, are not universal, therefore they are not canon, not scripture... today's prophecy is for a specific time, place, and person or people for the building up of the Church, His Bride (I Cor. 14). Sometimes it is a calling... how do pastors know they are "called", it doesn't say in scripture, in 2012. these 43 people will be called into ministry in the crc... yet, pastors say they are "called" by God to that ministry...
I still have to do some more research on J Calvin and why he thinks they ceased... haven't found the exact reference in his institutes yet, just stmts. that say he already addressed that somewhere else, and so he won't repeat it where i was reading...
Hey Rob... exactly which Banner article were you referring to, as I see there are several... and I'm thinking CO is the new covenant based on re-reading your post...
I really, really appreciate you being willing to discuss cessationism (it seems Jim is ok with us changing course a bit on this thread, and still trying to keep it tied to the confessions =) so as long as he's having fun, we're good right? =)
Thank you Steve, for being honest... that brought tears to my eyes...
3 scriptures that I pray often for the church/crc/Bride of Christ, but not as consistently as I should are:
Eph. 1:17-18... That we have the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, that the eyes of our hearts are opent to know God more fully... I could write a chapter on this passage alone, how God "gave" me this scripture 5 different "random" ways over 4 days, the weekend He "reopened" my ears to hear Him and my eyes to see Him, in His Divine orchestestration. Only one time was it directly from scripture. I will quick list them... one, it was workshop title "Open the eyes of our hearts"... 2, it was part of the scripture used at a friend's memorial svc., 3 it was in the book I bought at the conference I was at that weekend... 4, it was in a song, as I was working on preparing the childrens Christmas worship service, and 5 on Sunday morning on my way to church, I hear a chord on my radio that was turned low, turn it up, and it is "open the eyes of my heart LORD!" So was it miraculous, yes, as to have all 5 of those very different ways of emphasizing that passage over 4 days, the odds are mind blowing... it's never happened again to that extent...
the second passage is Ez. 36:26... for the LORD to give us new hearts and new spirits, to take our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh... again, I've had confirmations on this one...
and the 3rd is Malachi 3:2-3 about refining His Bride... the verse in How Firm a Foundation is one of the confirmations... the flame shall not hurt thee, I only design, thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine... I strongly believe we/crc are in a time of refining... He is shaking what needs to be shaken, so that which cannot be shaken remains (Hebr. 12:25-28) ED Joel Boot's state of the church address, confirmed that (at least for me)...
Steve, Rob mentions prophetic prayer... I will share another testimony of how the Holy Spirit prompts... I was driving past a home, that as I drove past I remembered picking those kids up with the bus, when i was in school,but hadn't seen them in 15-20 years... and for whatever reason, I kept thinking about that family... and I thought, "LORD, do you want me to pray for them?" and I thought, well, either way, if it's the LORD or me, prayer is always a good thing, so I will... so I spent a few minutes praying for that family... and then totally forgot about it... the very next day, I run into one of them... and so I had the opportunity to ask how things were going, and pray with them for their situation... haven't seen them since... I don't understand it! But that's just one story, and I have 100's like that, and others that I pray with have similar testimonies... Did scripture tell me to pray for that specific family right then, no, but scripture tells me to pray. The Holy Spirit, in His mysterious way, somehow prompted me to pray for them the very day before I run into someone from that family... That's prophetic... there is no way I knew I would see them the very next day... the Holy Spirit prompted me the day before, so I could make a point of talking with her when I saw her, and praying with her and hopefully encouraging her...
as Rob shares, unfortunately, the prophetic has been horribly abused... what that points out to me, is that the enemy is putting a lot of time and effort into keeping this gift from being used appropriately in the Church. I believe that indicates there's a reason the enemy is particularly concerned about this gift... because it is such a powerful gift given on behalf of the health of the Church, when we are walking in it in accordance with God's will as revealed through scripture. That is why, the prophetic is always tested, by others that are sensitive to the Spirit (1 Cor. 14:29-32; and the 2 that Rob referenced - I John 4:1; 1 Thess. 5:19-22) God warns us in His word, that we will have to wade through claims of prophecy that are not from Him. That's a given, expect it... that's why it takes a team... a team devoted to prayer and the Word (Acts 6:4)... You have to know the Word, and it has to be living and active in your walk (Hebr. 4:12), AND one must spend significant time in prayer because for whatever reason, that is one way we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8)... as I study the prophets (looking at Samuel particularly) I see an intercessor someone who was much in prayer (I Sam 12:23 is just one reference to his commitment to prayer), ... Ezekiel was called a "watchman"
Please, please, don't hesitate to test what I share - I crave the sharpening (iron sharpens iron)... and it HAS to stand the test of God's plumline, His Word. I have the fear of God, that I do not want to be outside of His plan. Several years ago, I had a situation, that had me questioning if I was in alignment with Him, and even the thought that I might not be, made me sick to my stomach (i feel nauseous and upset just thinking about it again). It ended up being a spirit of fear from the enemy, it was awful, but through that, the LORD showed me that I never, never want to be outside of His covering (that's a whole story in itself too).
I ask myself, who am I to question John Calvin, and John MacArthur and many other strong leaders that have held the cessationist view over centuries, Godly men, who know the word, and yet I know we all have the same Holy Spirit leading and guiding us, that will put us on the same page/wave if we are listening and testing together, so, this has to pass the testing check and balance God put in place... and I will share that it was a very, very good day, when I discovered that the crc had refuted cessationism back at synod of 1973!
hope that makes sense, to the extent that it can, considering how the Holy Spirit leads, guides and prompts is a mystery...
I apologize for the length of this post, but it is a something dear to my heart...
in response to Al's last sentence... We need the power of the Spirit to stay alive and vibrant in today's broken world, which His power seems to be lacking to some debatable extent in the crc for a variety of reasons.
Hi Rob, I hope to respond to the questions in your post more fully, when I have more time, but what I'm thinking is that there is something even more foundational than the confessions that we need to focus on (so I'm not saying they are irrelevant, but there's something deeper)... and I believe that is prayer in and with the Spirit... I was thinking about it again this morning, then went to spend some time in the word, and I opened to Zechariah, not intentionally choosing that at all... read through chapter 4, and the verse that tells us how God is building His Church is 4:6... not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD of Hosts... I will elaborate more fully on this later and share my testimony of when the Spirit transformed my faith, from duty to delight, and it was through seeking Him in prayer that that the Spirit stirred up a hunger to be in His Presence/draw near to Him through prayer, the Word and worship...
Loren Cunningham (YWAM founder) confirms your experience of finding more greed among the poor and shares that in his "daring to live on the edge" book... and some of my experiences in helping those who come for help also lines up with that =(
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
My comment addresses thoughts about whether these confessions are relevant and how we might struggle with them. I think this thread brings out those concerns, even though maybe it wasn't the primary intent of the article, and maybe these concerns need to be discussed in another thread, but I see questions being stirred up through this discussion.
so one question I have is, where can we discuss our concerns with these confessions? the areas that we struggle with...without being in danger of being tried for heresy? or struggling privately with it for many years, and then leaving the denom. because there's no healthy place to discuss our struggles/doubts. iron sharpens iron, and I think that is something we all want so...
I will risk it here ;)..
I will ris I I would say these documents are mostly relevant at a foundational level (although it would be interesting to have a discussion on the doctrine of election, particularly including those from other denominations, because I cringe sometimes when we arrogantly think we are more "right" than other denoms.... Ez. 18:23-32 comes to mind re election, we could have an interesting discussion on infant baptism as well), but my main struggle with these documents, is that there are gaps - that is what can make them irrelevant regarding certain aspects of scripture...
and so here are a few of my thoughts...
b4 i start, here's a list of acronyms =) just in case... PH = Psalter Hymnal, HC = Heidleberg Catechism, Q&A = question and answer, CD = Canons of Dordt, and BC = Belgic Confession
Ok, this thread prompted me to pull out the PH and read through the HC again, a few nights ago, and also read through the CD and BC... I want to honor the creeds and confessions, and recognize that there is a lot of solid "stuff" (sorry, I'm not going to get too technical) in them and they give a solid foundation to our faith, but there are things I struggle with... the last section of HC Q&A 80, is one example. Another aspect I struggle with, is that there are gaps... for example in Q&A 83, 2 keys of the Kingdom are mentioned, I believe there are several and possibly many more keys, such as love and prayer and obedience and ???,but the HC only mentions 2 here... same w. Q&A 65, are there more ways that our faith is confirmed? When we use the catechism, are we only sticking to those 2 points, or are we expanding it to include more? or do we miss out on other ways, because we just focus on what the catechism gives us?
In the BC, we have support for the offices of pastor, elder and deacon, but what about prophets, evangelists and teachers (and apostles is an entire discussion in itself)?
Then between all of them, I think only the HC briefly mentions the gifts of the Spirit (Q&A51). But what do those gifts include... What is the gift of prophecy? What is a word of wisdom through the Spirit? What is a word of knowledge through the Spirit?
So, as the prophetic gifting is being stirred up these days, these historic confessions and creeds don't give me a whole lot to connect with on this particular aspect, so in this way they are not relevant. Make sense? I hope through the Spirit it does...
so in conclusion, both sides are right... they can be relevant or irrelevant, depending on what we're discussing...
all right, this has opened the door on some other questions, that yes, I think need to be discussed and wrestled with in an honest, open way... I think that will help bring ownership to what we believe, instead of just getting spoon fed the traditional position, however right that might be.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
thanks Chad, for your thoughtful reply... if you and family are ever on the less sunny side of the cascades, up in Lynden area, would love to connect with ya'll =)...
I don't agree that some of our positions are as clear as we would like to think... that's why we have so many denominations with varying doctrines on baptism (infant, believer and baptism of the Holy Spirit) election and pre-destination (inclusivism/exclusivism), communion, (symbolic, transubstantiation, consubstantiation, etc), end times (a mill, pre mill, post trib, mid trib etc), because the diversity of doctrines tells me it is not clear, and the biblical support is sometimes stronger for another position. These have been debated over the ages, and we are still debating them with brothers and sisters in Christ. I have some concern for our positions, because of our history of cessationism... how did we get that one so wrong? This was a huge error. If we weren't intentionally listening to the Spirit historically or moving fully in the prophetic gifting for the prior several centuries, how much is our own thinking/understanding, and what was Spirit led? Even 40 years after the crc refuted cessationism, it seems we are still very cautious and skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit, of how God speaks to us through His Spirit, to lead and guide us daily in our walk with Him. I know there are reasons, but we it seems we close the door on it for a variety of reasons, instead of how do we walk in the prophetic gifting in a biblical way.
Now, because God is God, and a generous and gracious God and He loves us as part of His Bride, He has been leading us to some extent through the Spirit, but I can only shake my head with sadness at what we have missed because we have not been intentionally listening to Him through prayer, because we have not been walking in the prophetic gifting that the Spirit has given us (well that depends on one's definition of the prophetic gifting). Cessationism has caused us to significantly miss walking in the power of the Spirit, and instead primarily rely on our intellect.
and since you mentioned the Westminster, so when the Westminster confessions says in Ch 1.I regarding the Holy Scripture... "...those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
" How do you understand, what ways have ceased? was the WC only referring to God inspiring more canon (which we all agree on), or was it referring to God speaking prophetically to us, for a specific time, place, people, etc. (which we don't agree on)? As I understand, this is part of how cessationism became part of our history...
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
again, not sure if this is the thread to discuss this, but these are questions behind the FOS and COB, i will keep wrestling, but part of that wrestling, is others sharing their insights and how they got to their position on whatever it is, that which is called a testimony =) so keep sharpening and sharing!!
and I'm not so sure, if we do have safety in questioning some deeply held positions when we don't end up at the same place as the confessions, especially if you are a pastor or spiritual leader.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
I Hmmm, I can relate to that... oh what fun =)
http://www.amazon.com/Convergence-Spiritual-Journeys-Charismatic-Calvinist/product-reviews/0977173909/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Jim, I would love a discussion on cessationism - maybe a different thread, as cessationism is an underlying reason why we might not be open to the prophetic. As Rob alludes to as well, it has been abused, when you get a controlling type leader who abuses it, and a council/congregation that doesn't understand how to test it. A key test is that the person sharing the "insight" is open to having it tested. If they aren't then, that's a pretty indicator that it might not be the LORD.
It seems there are so many misunderstandings surrounding the prophetic, and having a 500 year tradition of cessationism is significant, I think much more so, than we realize. For example, if J Calvin is considered to be the "theologian of the Holy Spirit", and yet was a cessationist, that does not make sense to me (I'm going to do some research on that)...
The good news, is we/crc do have a strong leadership structure in place, instead of a monarchy type arrangement, and we/crc do have strong foundational confessions to keep us together, and as believers, we do all have the same Holy Spirit, so if we are listening to Him together, theoretically, we will come together on whatever issue or question we might have...
I am currently studying the prophets and their prayer life, and seeing a pretty strong correlation...
anyway, lots of food for thought, am very interested in a discussion regarding cessationism/the prophetic for some good sharpening
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Thanks Rob... appreciate the thoughts you share, and your background in this... will read the article in a bit, and just curious when you use "CO" is that the new covenant for officebearers or the church order?
Yes, accountability aka testing, is a key to walking in the prophetic on behalf of the Bride of Christ... it cannot be done in a controlling manner... and yes, the personality thing is a problem, as we are always to reflect Christ, we must decrease, become less, and He must increase, become greater...
Again, I truly believe God is converging these streams, the charismatic and the calvinist... we/crc, have much to offer in the way of structure (dba church order), and a solid foundation (aka the creeds and confessions)... and a love for the Word... Scripture is always the plumline - the universal canon, everything must line up with scripture, Who God is as revealed in His Word...
However, we will not walk in the prophetic, if we believe God doesn't "speak" to us anymore, and that's what the cessationist position holds... I think there is confusion here... the God inspired universal canon, the Bible as we know it, is closed. I believe a significant majority (90%+) of both streams agree on this. The Spirit inspired prophetic insights we receive today, are not universal, therefore they are not canon, not scripture... today's prophecy is for a specific time, place, and person or people for the building up of the Church, His Bride (I Cor. 14). Sometimes it is a calling... how do pastors know they are "called", it doesn't say in scripture, in 2012. these 43 people will be called into ministry in the crc... yet, pastors say they are "called" by God to that ministry...
I still have to do some more research on J Calvin and why he thinks they ceased... haven't found the exact reference in his institutes yet, just stmts. that say he already addressed that somewhere else, and so he won't repeat it where i was reading...
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Hey Rob... exactly which Banner article were you referring to, as I see there are several... and I'm thinking CO is the new covenant based on re-reading your post...
Posted in: Hi. I Am a Pastor
just type in pastor burn out statistics and you get all kinds...
but here's one site...
http://www.worldwideprayer.com/pastorsstatistics.html
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
I really, really appreciate you being willing to discuss cessationism (it seems Jim is ok with us changing course a bit on this thread, and still trying to keep it tied to the confessions =) so as long as he's having fun, we're good right? =)
Thank you Steve, for being honest... that brought tears to my eyes...
3 scriptures that I pray often for the church/crc/Bride of Christ, but not as consistently as I should are:
Eph. 1:17-18... That we have the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, that the eyes of our hearts are opent to know God more fully... I could write a chapter on this passage alone, how God "gave" me this scripture 5 different "random" ways over 4 days, the weekend He "reopened" my ears to hear Him and my eyes to see Him, in His Divine orchestestration. Only one time was it directly from scripture. I will quick list them... one, it was workshop title "Open the eyes of our hearts"... 2, it was part of the scripture used at a friend's memorial svc., 3 it was in the book I bought at the conference I was at that weekend... 4, it was in a song, as I was working on preparing the childrens Christmas worship service, and 5 on Sunday morning on my way to church, I hear a chord on my radio that was turned low, turn it up, and it is "open the eyes of my heart LORD!" So was it miraculous, yes, as to have all 5 of those very different ways of emphasizing that passage over 4 days, the odds are mind blowing... it's never happened again to that extent...
the second passage is Ez. 36:26... for the LORD to give us new hearts and new spirits, to take our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh... again, I've had confirmations on this one...
and the 3rd is Malachi 3:2-3 about refining His Bride... the verse in How Firm a Foundation is one of the confirmations... the flame shall not hurt thee, I only design, thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine... I strongly believe we/crc are in a time of refining... He is shaking what needs to be shaken, so that which cannot be shaken remains (Hebr. 12:25-28) ED Joel Boot's state of the church address, confirmed that (at least for me)...
Steve, Rob mentions prophetic prayer... I will share another testimony of how the Holy Spirit prompts... I was driving past a home, that as I drove past I remembered picking those kids up with the bus, when i was in school,but hadn't seen them in 15-20 years... and for whatever reason, I kept thinking about that family... and I thought, "LORD, do you want me to pray for them?" and I thought, well, either way, if it's the LORD or me, prayer is always a good thing, so I will... so I spent a few minutes praying for that family... and then totally forgot about it... the very next day, I run into one of them... and so I had the opportunity to ask how things were going, and pray with them for their situation... haven't seen them since... I don't understand it! But that's just one story, and I have 100's like that, and others that I pray with have similar testimonies... Did scripture tell me to pray for that specific family right then, no, but scripture tells me to pray. The Holy Spirit, in His mysterious way, somehow prompted me to pray for them the very day before I run into someone from that family... That's prophetic... there is no way I knew I would see them the very next day... the Holy Spirit prompted me the day before, so I could make a point of talking with her when I saw her, and praying with her and hopefully encouraging her...
as Rob shares, unfortunately, the prophetic has been horribly abused... what that points out to me, is that the enemy is putting a lot of time and effort into keeping this gift from being used appropriately in the Church. I believe that indicates there's a reason the enemy is particularly concerned about this gift... because it is such a powerful gift given on behalf of the health of the Church, when we are walking in it in accordance with God's will as revealed through scripture. That is why, the prophetic is always tested, by others that are sensitive to the Spirit (1 Cor. 14:29-32; and the 2 that Rob referenced - I John 4:1; 1 Thess. 5:19-22) God warns us in His word, that we will have to wade through claims of prophecy that are not from Him. That's a given, expect it... that's why it takes a team... a team devoted to prayer and the Word (Acts 6:4)... You have to know the Word, and it has to be living and active in your walk (Hebr. 4:12), AND one must spend significant time in prayer because for whatever reason, that is one way we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8)... as I study the prophets (looking at Samuel particularly) I see an intercessor someone who was much in prayer (I Sam 12:23 is just one reference to his commitment to prayer), ... Ezekiel was called a "watchman"
Please, please, don't hesitate to test what I share - I crave the sharpening (iron sharpens iron)... and it HAS to stand the test of God's plumline, His Word. I have the fear of God, that I do not want to be outside of His plan. Several years ago, I had a situation, that had me questioning if I was in alignment with Him, and even the thought that I might not be, made me sick to my stomach (i feel nauseous and upset just thinking about it again). It ended up being a spirit of fear from the enemy, it was awful, but through that, the LORD showed me that I never, never want to be outside of His covering (that's a whole story in itself too).
I ask myself, who am I to question John Calvin, and John MacArthur and many other strong leaders that have held the cessationist view over centuries, Godly men, who know the word, and yet I know we all have the same Holy Spirit leading and guiding us, that will put us on the same page/wave if we are listening and testing together, so, this has to pass the testing check and balance God put in place... and I will share that it was a very, very good day, when I discovered that the crc had refuted cessationism back at synod of 1973!
hope that makes sense, to the extent that it can, considering how the Holy Spirit leads, guides and prompts is a mystery...
I apologize for the length of this post, but it is a something dear to my heart...
Posted in: Belhar—Up, Down or Sideways?
in response to Al's last sentence... We need the power of the Spirit to stay alive and vibrant in today's broken world, which His power seems to be lacking to some debatable extent in the crc for a variety of reasons.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Hi Rob, I hope to respond to the questions in your post more fully, when I have more time, but what I'm thinking is that there is something even more foundational than the confessions that we need to focus on (so I'm not saying they are irrelevant, but there's something deeper)... and I believe that is prayer in and with the Spirit... I was thinking about it again this morning, then went to spend some time in the word, and I opened to Zechariah, not intentionally choosing that at all... read through chapter 4, and the verse that tells us how God is building His Church is 4:6... not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD of Hosts... I will elaborate more fully on this later and share my testimony of when the Spirit transformed my faith, from duty to delight, and it was through seeking Him in prayer that that the Spirit stirred up a hunger to be in His Presence/draw near to Him through prayer, the Word and worship...
Posted in: Guard Against All Kinds of Greed - a Reflection on Luke 12
Loren Cunningham (YWAM founder) confirms your experience of finding more greed among the poor and shares that in his "daring to live on the edge" book... and some of my experiences in helping those who come for help also lines up with that =(