I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
thanks for sharing Rob, this is exactly why we need both Spirit and Truth, and a healthy balance of them...
Ok, I don't think I ever said the catechism was dry and unspiritual... I said that they have gaps, such as on the gifts of the Spirit, there's not much there... and it's not the first place I run when I have a question on something related to my faith...
The Word and prayer are my first resource, and I don't how many times, I will have a question, and often within 24 hours, through Divine orchestration, the Spirit will start to reveal insights and answers in various places... I remember one time I wanted to find a certain sermon by the Scots revivalist Duncan Campbell... I spent some frustrating time trying to listen to some scratchy sermons of his that were online, with lots of interruptions, since I have little ones, and I gave up... a few weeks later, when I was working on something totally different, the sermon I was looking for was posted on another site that I "stumbled" on, and had just been posted a week or 2 before I "found" it.
I do believe the LORD will use these confessions and catechism to stir up peoples faith, same as He might use a preacher whose message is based on the Word of God, or powerful and profound writing, ie CS Lewis' writings, Chuck Swindoll, and any number of the theologians...
Having been raised in the crc, attended a CSI school, involved in all the youth programs, sunday school, catechisms, attended a crc college... I have a very strong appreciation for grounding in the Word, and that salvation is only through the grace of Jesus Christ, it is not based on anything we do or merit... from discussions with other believers that grew up in different denominations, they didn't always get that message at the church they grew up in, and it wasn't until high school or college when they went somewhere else that they heard the gospel of Jesus' grace... So I appreciate our heritage and reformed foundation of salvation, and realize this is unfortunately rare in other denominations.
Now, one of the gaps I found in our confessions is walking in certain gifts of the Spirit and "hearing" God speak to us in our inner man, and through Divine orchestration, as well as through scripture, and always in alignment with scripture... we're (Crc) are good with the Spirit working in our heart and leading us to Christ, we are good with the Spirit convicting us of sin (though not sure how well we always listen to Him when He's convicting us), and that the Spirit helps illumine scripture, and distributes His gifts - though traditionally these have only been the non-sensational ones... ie like administration and giving and encouraging, and somehow He helps us pray...
so the gap in my life was in high school, I would have amazing conversations with the LORD, but didn't really realize what was going on... at about that time the new age garbage was coming out, and so since there were mystical similarities, I did not pursue these conversations... my prayer life became dry.. because it became a one way monologue... for almost 20 years... no one in the reformed traditions was teaching or training on "listening" to God, that He still does speak to us, now one way, and then another (and of course primarily through His Word)... so I did lots of Bible studies, which is all good of course, and lots of serving which is good too, attended church 2x a Sunday (usually) but it was not the delight that I experience now, since the LORD re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart to His Spirit's leading... now I crave my time with Him, i love abiding in the "secret place" with Him (Ps. 91:1 NKJV)... last night I had the opportunity for extended worship with other believers... 2 hours flew by... I get to spend most of my days in July contemplating/pondering as I work out in our raspberry field... I'm hungry for His Living and Active Word and have internalized more scripture in the last 5 years, than I ever did in all my school, catechism and beyond years, and even this morning as I was thinking about your questions, and how I was going to respond, I wanted to spend some time in the Word first...
Before reading Zech. this morning , I was thinking about responding on how the Spirit had transformed my life, and as I reflected on it, I wasn't sure if it was an infilling by Him, or a stripping away of what was blocking my receptivity to Him... I concluded it's probably both... and right after that I read the intro to Zechariah in the Bible that I use, which has a section on "the Holy Spirit at work" for each book of the Bible... and here's what it says: "Zerubbabel is comforted in the assurances 1) that the rebuilding of the temple will not be by military might our human prowess but by the ministry of the Spirit of God 2) that the Holy Spirit will remove every obstacle that stands against the completion of God's temple."
so 1 would be an infilling, and 2 would be removing what is blocking our receptivity to Him .. ......
that confirmed my "both" conclusion
and God's temple is us, as He indwells us through His Holy Spirit...
I have run into similar types of attitudes like you mention in the charismatic circles, for example, but that is not always the case... if you praise God for 20 minutes at a prayer meeting, then you have invited His Presence and then can request whatever you wish... one time, when I was praying with them... I felt the LORD was asking for us to keep praising Him... and the prayer leader was on the same wave... but one of the ladies was not! it was like a punch in the gut... the comment was "we already did this, we don't need to do it again, it's a waste of time" or something like that.. the prayer leader literally fell back in his chair with a very shocked look, and i was in tears, it was so harsh...
amen! Salvation is not about us... we are Jesus reward... it's all about Him, He deserves the reward (us/our souls) of His suffering... I love this sermon exposing humanitarianism in the Church by Paris Reidhead... on 10 shekels and a shirt... here's the link if you aren't familiar with the sermon. http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/tenshekels.shtml yhr
the story he shares of when he is in Africa is especially insightful...
I don't think I'm bitter about the cessationist tradition in the crc, as God's sovereignty is a key and well loved doctrine in the reformed tradition, and so I trust He had a reason to let us believe that for so long... I would say I have some frustration though, that we refuted cessationism almost 40 years ago, and seem to not have made very much progress in moving forward in the more complete power of the Spirit. I get a little irked when i hear about denominational "dominees" and professors that continued to teach cessationism after 1973... and i have to be careful not to get too snarky when we point out all these charismatic personalities, and yet John Calvin seems to be one of ours... granted most of his stuff has stood the test of time... but it's time the cessationist thinking goes... at least that's my opinion, and unfortunately the confessions and creeds do not address this very well, if at all.
hope that all makes sense... again, thanks for being willing and taking the time to get more in depth here...
Yes, we probably all have some degree of greed to deal with... no one is exempt from greed... and we should note that the Luke 12 parable in response to the "poor" brother is specifically about a rich man...
Here is the quote from "Daring to live on the Edge" Loren Cunningham - YWAM publishings p 56
BOQ- Satan uses these tactics to enslave men financially: greed, the lust of power, pride, and fear - especially fear of financial insecurity. When we think of greed, we may think of a rich, miserly man. Some scrooge like miser, sitting on piles of money, running his fingers though his coins and bills. However, greed is more prevalent among the poor and the not-so-rich. The ones most consumed with lust for ownership are the ones who have the least. Greed leads parents in India to break their infants' legs so they can use them as beggars, eliciting more pity as cripples. EOQ
in another story Loren shares how one baby died, seven people hospitalized, 48 people homeless after their apartment (Austin Texas) burned by someone who was owed $8 from one of the residents.
However, he doesn't let the rich off the hook as he sees that they tend to use their wealth for control, power over others including manipulating the greed of the poor. So this isn't any better than greed, and has much more potential damage!
You are right Wendy, there are all kinds of reasons we don't understand for why people do what they do and so we struggle with much desperation in this broken world... we need grace to love on them, because none of us are deserving of what God has gifted us with... so LORD, pour Your love into our hearts, and helps us to see each person as You see them, as You intended them to be
just a couple thoughts in response to your post John Z....
first, having the gift of prophecy does not necessarily make one a prophet...but a prophet will always have the gift of prophecy?
second, there will be no new doctrine given through prophecy... that is complete in the canon...
and third... yes, prophets are mocked as in 2 kings 9 when referring to a prophet, the military refers to them as a "madman" or "maniac" depending on version of scripture, and their prophecy was considered "babble" (NKJV?)... doesn't sound like much respect to me...
Is all prophecy preaching? i don't think so... is all preaching prophecy? No, I don't think that's true either... do they overlap, yes, I would say some prophecy is preaching and some preaching is prophecy...
Is prophecy more than preaching? Yes, I think one aspect is getting a "rhema" word (Eph. 6:17) for a current situation.
Is prophecy "foretelling"? I believe it can be, but it won't always be, and maybe just a small fraction of the time, based on OT prophecies, the NT example of Agabus, and my experiences, as well as many other testimonies.
Is prophecy more than this? Yes, I think it includes the gift of a "word of knowledge" and a "word of wisdom" from the Spirit...
either this gift is an old one that we have missed and are now realizing that, or it is gone (which I don't agree with), or we have no idea what the gift of prophecy all entails, or ???
what does this have to do with the confessions... well that's my point, the confessions do not cover this to any significant degree that I can determine... which tells me there are gaps in them... which make them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing. They are foundational, I don't question that, and I don't think their intent is to cover everything in scripture, but let's agree, they are not the end all for everything related to our faith. And as we mature in our faith, we will start to dig into areas, that the confessions do not address (Hebr. 6)
thanks John... i wasn't clear on my post... my first 3 points were prompted by reading some of your comments... the second half of my comment was just general thoughts reflecting on all the comments so far... and not part of the response to your post...
but you bring up a good point, and that's the sufficiency of scripture, which is my point #2... all the doctrines that we need are in scripture, there will be no new doctrines... prophecy is in scripture... this is not adding anything new, just something we have mostly ignored for a variety of reasons...
then as I was thinking about this a bit more, and that prophetic is foretelling, I think one of the most profound examples in the NT. is Caiaphas in John 11:49-53... he had no clue what he was prophetically saying and scripture very clearly says he was prophesying... that one just blows me away...
and absolutely, the scripture is authoritative... every prophecy must line up with what's in God's word... that is our safety net, that is our protection, that is our plumline, that is how we test it!
My comment addresses thoughts about whether these confessions are relevant and how we might struggle with them. I think this thread brings out those concerns, even though maybe it wasn't the primary intent of the article, and maybe these concerns need to be discussed in another thread, but I see questions being stirred up through this discussion.
so one question I have is, where can we discuss our concerns with these confessions? the areas that we struggle with...without being in danger of being tried for heresy? or struggling privately with it for many years, and then leaving the denom. because there's no healthy place to discuss our struggles/doubts. iron sharpens iron, and I think that is something we all want so...
I will risk it here ;)..
I will ris I I would say these documents are mostly relevant at a foundational level (although it would be interesting to have a discussion on the doctrine of election, particularly including those from other denominations, because I cringe sometimes when we arrogantly think we are more "right" than other denoms.... Ez. 18:23-32 comes to mind re election, we could have an interesting discussion on infant baptism as well), but my main struggle with these documents, is that there are gaps - that is what can make them irrelevant regarding certain aspects of scripture...
and so here are a few of my thoughts...
b4 i start, here's a list of acronyms =) just in case... PH = Psalter Hymnal, HC = Heidleberg Catechism, Q&A = question and answer, CD = Canons of Dordt, and BC = Belgic Confession
Ok, this thread prompted me to pull out the PH and read through the HC again, a few nights ago, and also read through the CD and BC... I want to honor the creeds and confessions, and recognize that there is a lot of solid "stuff" (sorry, I'm not going to get too technical) in them and they give a solid foundation to our faith, but there are things I struggle with... the last section of HC Q&A 80, is one example. Another aspect I struggle with, is that there are gaps... for example in Q&A 83, 2 keys of the Kingdom are mentioned, I believe there are several and possibly many more keys, such as love and prayer and obedience and ???,but the HC only mentions 2 here... same w. Q&A 65, are there more ways that our faith is confirmed? When we use the catechism, are we only sticking to those 2 points, or are we expanding it to include more? or do we miss out on other ways, because we just focus on what the catechism gives us?
In the BC, we have support for the offices of pastor, elder and deacon, but what about prophets, evangelists and teachers (and apostles is an entire discussion in itself)?
Then between all of them, I think only the HC briefly mentions the gifts of the Spirit (Q&A51). But what do those gifts include... What is the gift of prophecy? What is a word of wisdom through the Spirit? What is a word of knowledge through the Spirit?
So, as the prophetic gifting is being stirred up these days, these historic confessions and creeds don't give me a whole lot to connect with on this particular aspect, so in this way they are not relevant. Make sense? I hope through the Spirit it does...
so in conclusion, both sides are right... they can be relevant or irrelevant, depending on what we're discussing...
all right, this has opened the door on some other questions, that yes, I think need to be discussed and wrestled with in an honest, open way... I think that will help bring ownership to what we believe, instead of just getting spoon fed the traditional position, however right that might be.
thanks Chad, for your thoughtful reply... if you and family are ever on the less sunny side of the cascades, up in Lynden area, would love to connect with ya'll =)...
I don't agree that some of our positions are as clear as we would like to think... that's why we have so many denominations with varying doctrines on baptism (infant, believer and baptism of the Holy Spirit) election and pre-destination (inclusivism/exclusivism), communion, (symbolic, transubstantiation, consubstantiation, etc), end times (a mill, pre mill, post trib, mid trib etc), because the diversity of doctrines tells me it is not clear, and the biblical support is sometimes stronger for another position. These have been debated over the ages, and we are still debating them with brothers and sisters in Christ. I have some concern for our positions, because of our history of cessationism... how did we get that one so wrong? This was a huge error. If we weren't intentionally listening to the Spirit historically or moving fully in the prophetic gifting for the prior several centuries, how much is our own thinking/understanding, and what was Spirit led? Even 40 years after the crc refuted cessationism, it seems we are still very cautious and skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit, of how God speaks to us through His Spirit, to lead and guide us daily in our walk with Him. I know there are reasons, but we it seems we close the door on it for a variety of reasons, instead of how do we walk in the prophetic gifting in a biblical way.
Now, because God is God, and a generous and gracious God and He loves us as part of His Bride, He has been leading us to some extent through the Spirit, but I can only shake my head with sadness at what we have missed because we have not been intentionally listening to Him through prayer, because we have not been walking in the prophetic gifting that the Spirit has given us (well that depends on one's definition of the prophetic gifting). Cessationism has caused us to significantly miss walking in the power of the Spirit, and instead primarily rely on our intellect.
and since you mentioned the Westminster, so when the Westminster confessions says in Ch 1.I regarding the Holy Scripture... "...those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
" How do you understand, what ways have ceased? was the WC only referring to God inspiring more canon (which we all agree on), or was it referring to God speaking prophetically to us, for a specific time, place, people, etc. (which we don't agree on)? As I understand, this is part of how cessationism became part of our history...
again, not sure if this is the thread to discuss this, but these are questions behind the FOS and COB, i will keep wrestling, but part of that wrestling, is others sharing their insights and how they got to their position on whatever it is, that which is called a testimony =) so keep sharpening and sharing!!
and I'm not so sure, if we do have safety in questioning some deeply held positions when we don't end up at the same place as the confessions, especially if you are a pastor or spiritual leader.
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
thanks for sharing Rob, this is exactly why we need both Spirit and Truth, and a healthy balance of them...
Ok, I don't think I ever said the catechism was dry and unspiritual... I said that they have gaps, such as on the gifts of the Spirit, there's not much there... and it's not the first place I run when I have a question on something related to my faith...
The Word and prayer are my first resource, and I don't how many times, I will have a question, and often within 24 hours, through Divine orchestration, the Spirit will start to reveal insights and answers in various places... I remember one time I wanted to find a certain sermon by the Scots revivalist Duncan Campbell... I spent some frustrating time trying to listen to some scratchy sermons of his that were online, with lots of interruptions, since I have little ones, and I gave up... a few weeks later, when I was working on something totally different, the sermon I was looking for was posted on another site that I "stumbled" on, and had just been posted a week or 2 before I "found" it.
I do believe the LORD will use these confessions and catechism to stir up peoples faith, same as He might use a preacher whose message is based on the Word of God, or powerful and profound writing, ie CS Lewis' writings, Chuck Swindoll, and any number of the theologians...
Having been raised in the crc, attended a CSI school, involved in all the youth programs, sunday school, catechisms, attended a crc college... I have a very strong appreciation for grounding in the Word, and that salvation is only through the grace of Jesus Christ, it is not based on anything we do or merit... from discussions with other believers that grew up in different denominations, they didn't always get that message at the church they grew up in, and it wasn't until high school or college when they went somewhere else that they heard the gospel of Jesus' grace... So I appreciate our heritage and reformed foundation of salvation, and realize this is unfortunately rare in other denominations.
Now, one of the gaps I found in our confessions is walking in certain gifts of the Spirit and "hearing" God speak to us in our inner man, and through Divine orchestration, as well as through scripture, and always in alignment with scripture... we're (Crc) are good with the Spirit working in our heart and leading us to Christ, we are good with the Spirit convicting us of sin (though not sure how well we always listen to Him when He's convicting us), and that the Spirit helps illumine scripture, and distributes His gifts - though traditionally these have only been the non-sensational ones... ie like administration and giving and encouraging, and somehow He helps us pray...
so the gap in my life was in high school, I would have amazing conversations with the LORD, but didn't really realize what was going on... at about that time the new age garbage was coming out, and so since there were mystical similarities, I did not pursue these conversations... my prayer life became dry.. because it became a one way monologue... for almost 20 years... no one in the reformed traditions was teaching or training on "listening" to God, that He still does speak to us, now one way, and then another (and of course primarily through His Word)... so I did lots of Bible studies, which is all good of course, and lots of serving which is good too, attended church 2x a Sunday (usually) but it was not the delight that I experience now, since the LORD re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart to His Spirit's leading... now I crave my time with Him, i love abiding in the "secret place" with Him (Ps. 91:1 NKJV)... last night I had the opportunity for extended worship with other believers... 2 hours flew by... I get to spend most of my days in July contemplating/pondering as I work out in our raspberry field... I'm hungry for His Living and Active Word and have internalized more scripture in the last 5 years, than I ever did in all my school, catechism and beyond years, and even this morning as I was thinking about your questions, and how I was going to respond, I wanted to spend some time in the Word first...
Before reading Zech. this morning , I was thinking about responding on how the Spirit had transformed my life, and as I reflected on it, I wasn't sure if it was an infilling by Him, or a stripping away of what was blocking my receptivity to Him... I concluded it's probably both... and right after that I read the intro to Zechariah in the Bible that I use, which has a section on "the Holy Spirit at work" for each book of the Bible... and here's what it says: "Zerubbabel is comforted in the assurances 1) that the rebuilding of the temple will not be by military might our human prowess but by the ministry of the Spirit of God 2) that the Holy Spirit will remove every obstacle that stands against the completion of God's temple."
so 1 would be an infilling, and 2 would be removing what is blocking our receptivity to Him .. ......
that confirmed my "both" conclusion
and God's temple is us, as He indwells us through His Holy Spirit...
I have run into similar types of attitudes like you mention in the charismatic circles, for example, but that is not always the case... if you praise God for 20 minutes at a prayer meeting, then you have invited His Presence and then can request whatever you wish... one time, when I was praying with them... I felt the LORD was asking for us to keep praising Him... and the prayer leader was on the same wave... but one of the ladies was not! it was like a punch in the gut... the comment was "we already did this, we don't need to do it again, it's a waste of time" or something like that.. the prayer leader literally fell back in his chair with a very shocked look, and i was in tears, it was so harsh...
amen! Salvation is not about us... we are Jesus reward... it's all about Him, He deserves the reward (us/our souls) of His suffering... I love this sermon exposing humanitarianism in the Church by Paris Reidhead... on 10 shekels and a shirt... here's the link if you aren't familiar with the sermon. http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/tenshekels.shtml yhr
the story he shares of when he is in Africa is especially insightful...
I don't think I'm bitter about the cessationist tradition in the crc, as God's sovereignty is a key and well loved doctrine in the reformed tradition, and so I trust He had a reason to let us believe that for so long... I would say I have some frustration though, that we refuted cessationism almost 40 years ago, and seem to not have made very much progress in moving forward in the more complete power of the Spirit. I get a little irked when i hear about denominational "dominees" and professors that continued to teach cessationism after 1973... and i have to be careful not to get too snarky when we point out all these charismatic personalities, and yet John Calvin seems to be one of ours... granted most of his stuff has stood the test of time... but it's time the cessationist thinking goes... at least that's my opinion, and unfortunately the confessions and creeds do not address this very well, if at all.
hope that all makes sense... again, thanks for being willing and taking the time to get more in depth here...
Posted in: Guard Against All Kinds of Greed - a Reflection on Luke 12
Yes, we probably all have some degree of greed to deal with... no one is exempt from greed... and we should note that the Luke 12 parable in response to the "poor" brother is specifically about a rich man...
Here is the quote from "Daring to live on the Edge" Loren Cunningham - YWAM publishings p 56
BOQ- Satan uses these tactics to enslave men financially: greed, the lust of power, pride, and fear - especially fear of financial insecurity. When we think of greed, we may think of a rich, miserly man. Some scrooge like miser, sitting on piles of money, running his fingers though his coins and bills. However, greed is more prevalent among the poor and the not-so-rich. The ones most consumed with lust for ownership are the ones who have the least. Greed leads parents in India to break their infants' legs so they can use them as beggars, eliciting more pity as cripples. EOQ
in another story Loren shares how one baby died, seven people hospitalized, 48 people homeless after their apartment (Austin Texas) burned by someone who was owed $8 from one of the residents.
However, he doesn't let the rich off the hook as he sees that they tend to use their wealth for control, power over others including manipulating the greed of the poor. So this isn't any better than greed, and has much more potential damage!
Posted in: Guard Against All Kinds of Greed - a Reflection on Luke 12
You are right Wendy, there are all kinds of reasons we don't understand for why people do what they do and so we struggle with much desperation in this broken world... we need grace to love on them, because none of us are deserving of what God has gifted us with... so LORD, pour Your love into our hearts, and helps us to see each person as You see them, as You intended them to be
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
just a couple thoughts in response to your post John Z....
first, having the gift of prophecy does not necessarily make one a prophet...but a prophet will always have the gift of prophecy?
second, there will be no new doctrine given through prophecy... that is complete in the canon...
and third... yes, prophets are mocked as in 2 kings 9 when referring to a prophet, the military refers to them as a "madman" or "maniac" depending on version of scripture, and their prophecy was considered "babble" (NKJV?)... doesn't sound like much respect to me...
Is all prophecy preaching? i don't think so... is all preaching prophecy? No, I don't think that's true either... do they overlap, yes, I would say some prophecy is preaching and some preaching is prophecy...
Is prophecy more than preaching? Yes, I think one aspect is getting a "rhema" word (Eph. 6:17) for a current situation.
Is prophecy "foretelling"? I believe it can be, but it won't always be, and maybe just a small fraction of the time, based on OT prophecies, the NT example of Agabus, and my experiences, as well as many other testimonies.
Is prophecy more than this? Yes, I think it includes the gift of a "word of knowledge" and a "word of wisdom" from the Spirit...
either this gift is an old one that we have missed and are now realizing that, or it is gone (which I don't agree with), or we have no idea what the gift of prophecy all entails, or ???
what does this have to do with the confessions... well that's my point, the confessions do not cover this to any significant degree that I can determine... which tells me there are gaps in them... which make them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing. They are foundational, I don't question that, and I don't think their intent is to cover everything in scripture, but let's agree, they are not the end all for everything related to our faith. And as we mature in our faith, we will start to dig into areas, that the confessions do not address (Hebr. 6)
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
thanks John... i wasn't clear on my post... my first 3 points were prompted by reading some of your comments... the second half of my comment was just general thoughts reflecting on all the comments so far... and not part of the response to your post...
but you bring up a good point, and that's the sufficiency of scripture, which is my point #2... all the doctrines that we need are in scripture, there will be no new doctrines... prophecy is in scripture... this is not adding anything new, just something we have mostly ignored for a variety of reasons...
then as I was thinking about this a bit more, and that prophetic is foretelling, I think one of the most profound examples in the NT. is Caiaphas in John 11:49-53... he had no clue what he was prophetically saying and scripture very clearly says he was prophesying... that one just blows me away...
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
and absolutely, the scripture is authoritative... every prophecy must line up with what's in God's word... that is our safety net, that is our protection, that is our plumline, that is how we test it!
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
My comment addresses thoughts about whether these confessions are relevant and how we might struggle with them. I think this thread brings out those concerns, even though maybe it wasn't the primary intent of the article, and maybe these concerns need to be discussed in another thread, but I see questions being stirred up through this discussion.
so one question I have is, where can we discuss our concerns with these confessions? the areas that we struggle with...without being in danger of being tried for heresy? or struggling privately with it for many years, and then leaving the denom. because there's no healthy place to discuss our struggles/doubts. iron sharpens iron, and I think that is something we all want so...
I will risk it here ;)..
I will ris I I would say these documents are mostly relevant at a foundational level (although it would be interesting to have a discussion on the doctrine of election, particularly including those from other denominations, because I cringe sometimes when we arrogantly think we are more "right" than other denoms.... Ez. 18:23-32 comes to mind re election, we could have an interesting discussion on infant baptism as well), but my main struggle with these documents, is that there are gaps - that is what can make them irrelevant regarding certain aspects of scripture...
and so here are a few of my thoughts...
b4 i start, here's a list of acronyms =) just in case... PH = Psalter Hymnal, HC = Heidleberg Catechism, Q&A = question and answer, CD = Canons of Dordt, and BC = Belgic Confession
Ok, this thread prompted me to pull out the PH and read through the HC again, a few nights ago, and also read through the CD and BC... I want to honor the creeds and confessions, and recognize that there is a lot of solid "stuff" (sorry, I'm not going to get too technical) in them and they give a solid foundation to our faith, but there are things I struggle with... the last section of HC Q&A 80, is one example. Another aspect I struggle with, is that there are gaps... for example in Q&A 83, 2 keys of the Kingdom are mentioned, I believe there are several and possibly many more keys, such as love and prayer and obedience and ???,but the HC only mentions 2 here... same w. Q&A 65, are there more ways that our faith is confirmed? When we use the catechism, are we only sticking to those 2 points, or are we expanding it to include more? or do we miss out on other ways, because we just focus on what the catechism gives us?
In the BC, we have support for the offices of pastor, elder and deacon, but what about prophets, evangelists and teachers (and apostles is an entire discussion in itself)?
Then between all of them, I think only the HC briefly mentions the gifts of the Spirit (Q&A51). But what do those gifts include... What is the gift of prophecy? What is a word of wisdom through the Spirit? What is a word of knowledge through the Spirit?
So, as the prophetic gifting is being stirred up these days, these historic confessions and creeds don't give me a whole lot to connect with on this particular aspect, so in this way they are not relevant. Make sense? I hope through the Spirit it does...
so in conclusion, both sides are right... they can be relevant or irrelevant, depending on what we're discussing...
all right, this has opened the door on some other questions, that yes, I think need to be discussed and wrestled with in an honest, open way... I think that will help bring ownership to what we believe, instead of just getting spoon fed the traditional position, however right that might be.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
thanks Chad, for your thoughtful reply... if you and family are ever on the less sunny side of the cascades, up in Lynden area, would love to connect with ya'll =)...
I don't agree that some of our positions are as clear as we would like to think... that's why we have so many denominations with varying doctrines on baptism (infant, believer and baptism of the Holy Spirit) election and pre-destination (inclusivism/exclusivism), communion, (symbolic, transubstantiation, consubstantiation, etc), end times (a mill, pre mill, post trib, mid trib etc), because the diversity of doctrines tells me it is not clear, and the biblical support is sometimes stronger for another position. These have been debated over the ages, and we are still debating them with brothers and sisters in Christ. I have some concern for our positions, because of our history of cessationism... how did we get that one so wrong? This was a huge error. If we weren't intentionally listening to the Spirit historically or moving fully in the prophetic gifting for the prior several centuries, how much is our own thinking/understanding, and what was Spirit led? Even 40 years after the crc refuted cessationism, it seems we are still very cautious and skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit, of how God speaks to us through His Spirit, to lead and guide us daily in our walk with Him. I know there are reasons, but we it seems we close the door on it for a variety of reasons, instead of how do we walk in the prophetic gifting in a biblical way.
Now, because God is God, and a generous and gracious God and He loves us as part of His Bride, He has been leading us to some extent through the Spirit, but I can only shake my head with sadness at what we have missed because we have not been intentionally listening to Him through prayer, because we have not been walking in the prophetic gifting that the Spirit has given us (well that depends on one's definition of the prophetic gifting). Cessationism has caused us to significantly miss walking in the power of the Spirit, and instead primarily rely on our intellect.
and since you mentioned the Westminster, so when the Westminster confessions says in Ch 1.I regarding the Holy Scripture... "...those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
" How do you understand, what ways have ceased? was the WC only referring to God inspiring more canon (which we all agree on), or was it referring to God speaking prophetically to us, for a specific time, place, people, etc. (which we don't agree on)? As I understand, this is part of how cessationism became part of our history...
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
again, not sure if this is the thread to discuss this, but these are questions behind the FOS and COB, i will keep wrestling, but part of that wrestling, is others sharing their insights and how they got to their position on whatever it is, that which is called a testimony =) so keep sharpening and sharing!!
and I'm not so sure, if we do have safety in questioning some deeply held positions when we don't end up at the same place as the confessions, especially if you are a pastor or spiritual leader.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
I Hmmm, I can relate to that... oh what fun =)
http://www.amazon.com/Convergence-Spiritual-Journeys-Charismatic-Calvinist/product-reviews/0977173909/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.