Bev Sterk

Thanks Rob... appreciate the thoughts you share, and your background in this...  will read the article in a bit, and just curious when you use "CO" is that the new covenant for officebearers or the church order? 

Yes, accountability aka testing, is a key to walking in the prophetic on behalf of the Bride of Christ...  it cannot be done in a controlling manner... and yes, the personality thing is a problem, as we are always to reflect Christ, we must decrease, become less, and He must increase, become greater...

Again, I truly believe God is converging these streams, the charismatic and the calvinist... we/crc, have much to offer in the way of structure (dba church order), and a solid foundation (aka the creeds and confessions)... and a love for the Word... Scripture is always the plumline - the universal canon, everything must line up with scripture, Who God is as revealed in His Word...

However, we will not walk in the prophetic, if we believe God doesn't "speak" to us anymore, and that's what the cessationist position holds... I think there is confusion here... the God inspired universal canon, the Bible as we know it, is closed.  I believe a significant majority (90%+) of both streams agree on this.  The Spirit inspired prophetic insights we receive today, are not universal, therefore they are not canon, not scripture... today's prophecy is for a specific time, place, and person or people for the building up of the Church, His Bride (I Cor. 14).  Sometimes it is a calling... how do pastors know they are "called", it doesn't say in scripture, in 2012. these 43 people will be called into ministry in the crc... yet, pastors say they are "called" by God to that ministry...

I still have to do some more research on J Calvin and why he thinks they ceased... haven't found the exact reference in his institutes yet, just stmts. that say he already addressed that somewhere else, and so he won't repeat it where i was reading... 

 

Hey Rob... exactly which Banner article were you referring to, as I see there are several...  and I'm thinking CO is the new covenant based on re-reading your post...

just type in pastor burn out statistics and you get all kinds...

but here's one site...

http://www.worldwideprayer.com/pastorsstatistics.html 

in response to Al's last sentence... We need the power of the Spirit to stay alive and vibrant in today's broken world, which His power seems to be lacking to some debatable extent in the crc for a variety of reasons.

Hi Rob,  I hope to respond to the questions in your post more fully, when I have more time, but what I'm thinking is that there is something even more foundational than the confessions that we need to focus on (so I'm not saying they are irrelevant, but there's something deeper)...  and I believe that is prayer in and with the Spirit...  I was thinking about it again this morning, then went to spend some time in the word, and I opened to Zechariah, not intentionally choosing that at all...  read through chapter 4, and the verse that tells us how God is building His Church is 4:6... not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD of Hosts...  I will elaborate more fully on this later and share my testimony of when the Spirit transformed my faith, from duty to delight, and it was through seeking Him in prayer that that the Spirit stirred up a hunger to be in His Presence/draw near to Him through prayer, the Word and worship...

thanks for sharing Rob, this is exactly why we need both Spirit and Truth, and a healthy balance of them...

Ok, I don't think I ever said the catechism was dry and unspiritual... I said that they have gaps, such as on the gifts of the Spirit, there's not much there... and it's not the first place I run when I have a question on something related to my faith... 

The Word and prayer are my first resource, and I don't how many times, I will have a question, and often within 24 hours, through Divine orchestration, the Spirit will start to reveal insights and answers in various places...  I remember one time I wanted to find a certain sermon by the Scots revivalist Duncan Campbell... I spent some frustrating time trying to listen to some scratchy sermons of his that were online, with lots of interruptions, since I have little ones, and I gave up...  a few weeks later, when I was working on something totally different, the sermon I was looking for was posted on another site that I "stumbled" on, and had just been posted a week or 2 before I "found" it.

I do believe the LORD will use these confessions and catechism to stir up peoples faith, same as He might use a preacher whose message is based on the Word of God, or powerful and profound writing, ie CS Lewis' writings, Chuck Swindoll, and any number of the theologians...

Having been raised in the crc, attended a CSI school, involved in all the youth programs, sunday school, catechisms, attended a crc college... I have a very strong appreciation for grounding in the Word, and that salvation is only through the grace of Jesus Christ, it is not based on anything we do or merit...  from discussions with other believers that grew up in different denominations, they didn't always get that message at the church they grew up in, and it wasn't until high school or college when they went somewhere else that they heard the gospel of Jesus' grace...  So I appreciate our heritage and reformed foundation of salvation, and realize this is unfortunately rare in other denominations.

Now, one of the gaps I found in our confessions is walking in certain gifts of the Spirit and "hearing" God speak to us in our inner man, and through Divine orchestration, as well as through scripture, and always in alignment with scripture... we're (Crc) are good with the Spirit working in our heart and leading us to Christ, we are good with the Spirit convicting us of sin (though not sure how well we always listen to Him when He's convicting us), and that the Spirit helps illumine scripture, and distributes His gifts - though traditionally these have only been the non-sensational ones... ie like administration and giving and encouraging, and somehow He helps us pray...

so the gap in my life was in high school, I would have amazing conversations with the LORD, but didn't really realize what was going on...  at about that time the new age garbage was coming out, and so since there were mystical similarities, I did not pursue these conversations... my prayer life became dry.. because it became a one way monologue...  for almost 20 years...  no one in the reformed traditions was teaching or training on "listening" to God, that He still does speak to us, now one way, and then another (and of course primarily through His Word)... so I did lots of Bible studies, which is all good of course, and lots of serving which is good too, attended church 2x a Sunday (usually) but it was not the delight that I experience now, since the LORD re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart to His Spirit's leading...  now I crave my time with Him, i love abiding in the "secret place" with Him (Ps. 91:1 NKJV)... last night I had the opportunity for extended worship with other believers... 2 hours flew by... I get to spend most of my days in July contemplating/pondering as I work out in our raspberry field...  I'm hungry for His Living and Active Word and have internalized more scripture in the last 5 years, than I ever did in all my school, catechism and beyond years, and even this morning as I was thinking about your questions, and how I was going to respond, I wanted to spend some time in the Word first...

Before reading Zech. this morning , I was thinking about responding on how the Spirit had transformed my life,   and as I reflected on it, I wasn't sure if it was an infilling by Him, or a stripping away of what was blocking my receptivity to Him...  I concluded it's probably both...  and right after that I read the intro to Zechariah in the Bible that I use, which has a section on "the Holy Spirit at work" for each book of the Bible... and here's what it says:  "Zerubbabel is comforted in the assurances 1) that the rebuilding of the temple will not be by military might our human prowess but by the ministry of the Spirit of God  2) that the Holy Spirit will remove every obstacle that stands against the completion of God's temple."

so 1 would be an infilling, and 2 would be removing what is blocking our receptivity to Him .. ......

that confirmed my "both" conclusion

and God's temple is us, as He indwells us through His Holy Spirit...

I have run into similar types of attitudes like you mention in the charismatic circles, for example, but that is not always the case... if you praise God for 20 minutes at a prayer meeting, then you have invited His Presence and then can request whatever you wish...  one time, when I was praying with them... I felt the LORD was asking for us to keep praising Him... and the prayer leader was on the same wave... but one of the ladies was not!  it was like a punch in the gut... the comment was "we already did this, we don't need to do it again, it's a waste of time" or something like that.. the prayer leader literally fell back in his chair with a very shocked look, and i was in tears, it was so harsh...

amen!  Salvation is not about us... we are Jesus reward... it's all about Him, He deserves the reward (us/our souls) of His suffering... I love this sermon exposing humanitarianism in the Church by Paris Reidhead...  on 10 shekels and a shirt...   here's the link if you aren't familiar with the sermon.   http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/tenshekels.shtml  yhr

 the story he shares of when he is in Africa is especially insightful...

I don't think I'm bitter about the cessationist tradition in the crc, as God's sovereignty is a key and well loved doctrine in the reformed tradition, and so I trust He had a reason to let us believe that for so long...  I would say I have some frustration though, that we refuted cessationism almost 40 years ago, and seem to not have made very much progress in moving forward in the more complete power of the Spirit.  I get a little irked when i hear about denominational "dominees" and professors that continued to teach cessationism after 1973...  and i have to be careful not to get too snarky when we point out all these charismatic personalities, and yet John Calvin seems to be one of ours...  granted most of his stuff has stood the test of time...  but it's time the cessationist thinking goes... at least that's my opinion, and unfortunately the confessions and creeds do not address this very well, if at all.

hope that all makes sense... again, thanks for being willing and taking the time to get more in depth here...