I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
Jim, I would love a discussion on cessationism - maybe a different thread, as cessationism is an underlying reason why we might not be open to the prophetic. As Rob alludes to as well, it has been abused, when you get a controlling type leader who abuses it, and a council/congregation that doesn't understand how to test it. A key test is that the person sharing the "insight" is open to having it tested. If they aren't then, that's a pretty indicator that it might not be the LORD.
It seems there are so many misunderstandings surrounding the prophetic, and having a 500 year tradition of cessationism is significant, I think much more so, than we realize. For example, if J Calvin is considered to be the "theologian of the Holy Spirit", and yet was a cessationist, that does not make sense to me (I'm going to do some research on that)...
The good news, is we/crc do have a strong leadership structure in place, instead of a monarchy type arrangement, and we/crc do have strong foundational confessions to keep us together, and as believers, we do all have the same Holy Spirit, so if we are listening to Him together, theoretically, we will come together on whatever issue or question we might have...
I am currently studying the prophets and their prayer life, and seeing a pretty strong correlation...
anyway, lots of food for thought, am very interested in a discussion regarding cessationism/the prophetic for some good sharpening
Thanks Rob... appreciate the thoughts you share, and your background in this... will read the article in a bit, and just curious when you use "CO" is that the new covenant for officebearers or the church order?
Yes, accountability aka testing, is a key to walking in the prophetic on behalf of the Bride of Christ... it cannot be done in a controlling manner... and yes, the personality thing is a problem, as we are always to reflect Christ, we must decrease, become less, and He must increase, become greater...
Again, I truly believe God is converging these streams, the charismatic and the calvinist... we/crc, have much to offer in the way of structure (dba church order), and a solid foundation (aka the creeds and confessions)... and a love for the Word... Scripture is always the plumline - the universal canon, everything must line up with scripture, Who God is as revealed in His Word...
However, we will not walk in the prophetic, if we believe God doesn't "speak" to us anymore, and that's what the cessationist position holds... I think there is confusion here... the God inspired universal canon, the Bible as we know it, is closed. I believe a significant majority (90%+) of both streams agree on this. The Spirit inspired prophetic insights we receive today, are not universal, therefore they are not canon, not scripture... today's prophecy is for a specific time, place, and person or people for the building up of the Church, His Bride (I Cor. 14). Sometimes it is a calling... how do pastors know they are "called", it doesn't say in scripture, in 2012. these 43 people will be called into ministry in the crc... yet, pastors say they are "called" by God to that ministry...
I still have to do some more research on J Calvin and why he thinks they ceased... haven't found the exact reference in his institutes yet, just stmts. that say he already addressed that somewhere else, and so he won't repeat it where i was reading...
Hey Rob... exactly which Banner article were you referring to, as I see there are several... and I'm thinking CO is the new covenant based on re-reading your post...
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
Yes, I will further clarify, as I have found the prophetic gifting can cause a lot of misunderstandings, and so clear communications is very important... I understand that the Holy Spirit will not doing something new that's not in scripture or that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus. That is a primary test of whether a prophecy is from the Spirit or not. The Spirit will not contradict Scripture and the character of God.
The prophetic gifting is of course not dependent on a woman holding office, just like any other gift is not dependent on that.
e Paul VK's original question asked how can complementarian classis encourage women to use their gifts in classis?
When we recognize that you don't have to "hold office" to have the spiritual gift of prophecy, then women should be able to operate in this gift somehow for the edification of the church at a local level, and at a classis level and beyond?... I don't think the Holy Spirit will give women prophetic insight just regarding the kitchen and the children (I'm being a bit snarky here =). At this point in our structure, there is no official way for women in a complemantarian structure to share the prophetic insight they receive from the Holy Spirit. There is no table that they are welcome at in this way. Now, there are of course ways that these insights can be shared, but it is informal and lacking structure and often, very limited. I submit that we need to set a table, where women are invited and welcome to share and test what is being received from the Holy Spirit through the gift of prophecy in regards to the church, at whatever level, whether they hold office or not. Again, I see this gifting as an open door for women to be a part of building up the Church, whatever their "official" role in the church might be, whether the congregation/classis is complementarian or open to women in office.
BOQ... The CRC, and most modern churches have done little work on prophesy, the gift or the office. It's a good thing to work on. EOQ pvk
that is my frustration, if the gift of prophecy (and possibly the office of prophet) is a key to building and edifying the Church (and I believe it is per I Cor. 14), and we/crc/modern church are so unfamiliar with it, then of course our congregations/denominations/the Church is going to be struggling. So why aren't we pursuing it more intentionally,with eagerness, instead of trying to use other "fix it" models.
I do plan on continuing study and training in this area, and have studied it to some extent, thanks to the charismatics, even though John McArthur, a cessationist, calls it "chaos"... that's why testing is so important... I John 4:1; I Thess. 5:19-21. Yes, it has to line up with scripture, that is the key test, but there often are other "confirmations" that God gives in addition to it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us... (Acts 15:28)
I know there is much confusion on this gifting, and our cessationist tradition has not helped. The interesting thing to me is that those who like to interpret prophecy as limited to preaching and teaching are often the same ones who say women cannot preach, but if prophecy is preaching, then Acts 2 would allow them to preach. I'm not saying that's my interpretation of prophecy, but it is an interesting contradiction, we can't say prophecy is preaching and then say women are not to prophesy/preach... it cannot be both. So that should tell us we need to get a better understanding of what prophecy is...
btw, congrats on having your thread be the most commented on the network now!! =)
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
I Hmmm, I can relate to that... oh what fun =)
http://www.amazon.com/Convergence-Spiritual-Journeys-Charismatic-Calvinist/product-reviews/0977173909/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Jim, I would love a discussion on cessationism - maybe a different thread, as cessationism is an underlying reason why we might not be open to the prophetic. As Rob alludes to as well, it has been abused, when you get a controlling type leader who abuses it, and a council/congregation that doesn't understand how to test it. A key test is that the person sharing the "insight" is open to having it tested. If they aren't then, that's a pretty indicator that it might not be the LORD.
It seems there are so many misunderstandings surrounding the prophetic, and having a 500 year tradition of cessationism is significant, I think much more so, than we realize. For example, if J Calvin is considered to be the "theologian of the Holy Spirit", and yet was a cessationist, that does not make sense to me (I'm going to do some research on that)...
The good news, is we/crc do have a strong leadership structure in place, instead of a monarchy type arrangement, and we/crc do have strong foundational confessions to keep us together, and as believers, we do all have the same Holy Spirit, so if we are listening to Him together, theoretically, we will come together on whatever issue or question we might have...
I am currently studying the prophets and their prayer life, and seeing a pretty strong correlation...
anyway, lots of food for thought, am very interested in a discussion regarding cessationism/the prophetic for some good sharpening
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Thanks Rob... appreciate the thoughts you share, and your background in this... will read the article in a bit, and just curious when you use "CO" is that the new covenant for officebearers or the church order?
Yes, accountability aka testing, is a key to walking in the prophetic on behalf of the Bride of Christ... it cannot be done in a controlling manner... and yes, the personality thing is a problem, as we are always to reflect Christ, we must decrease, become less, and He must increase, become greater...
Again, I truly believe God is converging these streams, the charismatic and the calvinist... we/crc, have much to offer in the way of structure (dba church order), and a solid foundation (aka the creeds and confessions)... and a love for the Word... Scripture is always the plumline - the universal canon, everything must line up with scripture, Who God is as revealed in His Word...
However, we will not walk in the prophetic, if we believe God doesn't "speak" to us anymore, and that's what the cessationist position holds... I think there is confusion here... the God inspired universal canon, the Bible as we know it, is closed. I believe a significant majority (90%+) of both streams agree on this. The Spirit inspired prophetic insights we receive today, are not universal, therefore they are not canon, not scripture... today's prophecy is for a specific time, place, and person or people for the building up of the Church, His Bride (I Cor. 14). Sometimes it is a calling... how do pastors know they are "called", it doesn't say in scripture, in 2012. these 43 people will be called into ministry in the crc... yet, pastors say they are "called" by God to that ministry...
I still have to do some more research on J Calvin and why he thinks they ceased... haven't found the exact reference in his institutes yet, just stmts. that say he already addressed that somewhere else, and so he won't repeat it where i was reading...
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Hey Rob... exactly which Banner article were you referring to, as I see there are several... and I'm thinking CO is the new covenant based on re-reading your post...
Posted in: Silence Hides Violence
Bless your hearts Safe Church! thanks for your commitment to making our congregations more aware of these abuses and concerns.
would you consider re-posting this on the SOS page? I think it would be worthwhile adding Nancy's story to that section, if Nancy is Ok with that?
you are appreciated!
Bev Sterk
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Posted in: Prayer Summit Reflections
Beautiful and Amen! I think I'm going through withdrawal this week =)...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Yes, I will further clarify, as I have found the prophetic gifting can cause a lot of misunderstandings, and so clear communications is very important... I understand that the Holy Spirit will not doing something new that's not in scripture or that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus. That is a primary test of whether a prophecy is from the Spirit or not. The Spirit will not contradict Scripture and the character of God.
The prophetic gifting is of course not dependent on a woman holding office, just like any other gift is not dependent on that.
e Paul VK's original question asked how can complementarian classis encourage women to use their gifts in classis?
When we recognize that you don't have to "hold office" to have the spiritual gift of prophecy, then women should be able to operate in this gift somehow for the edification of the church at a local level, and at a classis level and beyond?... I don't think the Holy Spirit will give women prophetic insight just regarding the kitchen and the children (I'm being a bit snarky here =). At this point in our structure, there is no official way for women in a complemantarian structure to share the prophetic insight they receive from the Holy Spirit. There is no table that they are welcome at in this way. Now, there are of course ways that these insights can be shared, but it is informal and lacking structure and often, very limited. I submit that we need to set a table, where women are invited and welcome to share and test what is being received from the Holy Spirit through the gift of prophecy in regards to the church, at whatever level, whether they hold office or not. Again, I see this gifting as an open door for women to be a part of building up the Church, whatever their "official" role in the church might be, whether the congregation/classis is complementarian or open to women in office.
I hope that helps clarify?
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Thanks Paul...
BOQ... The CRC, and most modern churches have done little work on prophesy, the gift or the office. It's a good thing to work on. EOQ pvk
that is my frustration, if the gift of prophecy (and possibly the office of prophet) is a key to building and edifying the Church (and I believe it is per I Cor. 14), and we/crc/modern church are so unfamiliar with it, then of course our congregations/denominations/the Church is going to be struggling. So why aren't we pursuing it more intentionally,with eagerness, instead of trying to use other "fix it" models.
I do plan on continuing study and training in this area, and have studied it to some extent, thanks to the charismatics, even though John McArthur, a cessationist, calls it "chaos"... that's why testing is so important... I John 4:1; I Thess. 5:19-21. Yes, it has to line up with scripture, that is the key test, but there often are other "confirmations" that God gives in addition to it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us... (Acts 15:28)
I know there is much confusion on this gifting, and our cessationist tradition has not helped. The interesting thing to me is that those who like to interpret prophecy as limited to preaching and teaching are often the same ones who say women cannot preach, but if prophecy is preaching, then Acts 2 would allow them to preach. I'm not saying that's my interpretation of prophecy, but it is an interesting contradiction, we can't say prophecy is preaching and then say women are not to prophesy/preach... it cannot be both. So that should tell us we need to get a better understanding of what prophecy is...
btw, congrats on having your thread be the most commented on the network now!! =)
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
whew... glad that helped..
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...