I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
it is enough, but barely, as one escaping through the flames and suffering great loss/regret at what they have missed (I Cor. 3:15). not saying I understand it since heaven is perfect, but the attitude of as long as I'm in heaven, that's all that matters, so I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by the grace of Jesus, will cause deep regret at some point...
So, I see the first conversion becoming Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then the other 2 as living out loving your neighbor as yourself. But having said that, I'm sure we can work on all the areas.
- our love relationship with God, the intimacy factor, our love for Jesus, as we are His Bride, that I find makes people uncomfortable. Song of Songs, was for many centuries seen as an allegory of God and Israel, Christ and His Bride, but as the rational - modern world view took precedence, it became viewed as simply a human love story. Now as we've moved into a post-modern view, maybe it's time to re-think this book of the Bible. I will admit, I haven't wrapped my head around it yet, other than chapter 8:6-7, and that was with help, but (spiritual) intimacy with Christ, that we are His Bride, and what that looks like, is one of the concepts I'm focusing on and asking God to help me better understand, whether that's with intellectual and/or experiential knowledge.
It seems to me we have been emphasizing the loving our neighbor (ie doing justice, being missional) over and above how to walk humbly with our God, how to love Him with all our being, the spiritual formation (the intimacy/emotional) aspect. I see this in the statistics of peoples prayer life, and how much time on average/day is spent in prayer, as well as several comments made to me about the biblical illiteracy in the church, as well as other statistics that show the prevalence of addictions such as porn in the church, and in choices we make of how we spend our resources, as well as a number of other indicators.
and that leads me to how much time/resources we spend on what's eternal and what's not, and probably most of us (including myself) can cut out some non-eternal activities, and replace them with more quiet time with the LORD, or more time in worship, or more of those good works He's prepared for us in advance.
amen John... Courageous shared a powerful and priceless message... One of the things that I believe (and agree with John) needs to be restored is the "family altar", that families make an intentional effort to gather together to pray, share and read and discuss scripture. I am not finding this going on at any significant level (via a variety of ways), so unfortunately, the 85% would seem to be fairly accurate from my experience and discussions. I believe Cheryl Saks (Prayer Saturated Church) is working on a book about this, and not sure if it's out yet or not. Many have the tools, just are not making the time in often already over-loaded and busy schedules. It is about our priorities.
The movement of the Spirit is a mystery, much like the wind (so I read "windy" as potentially Spirit inspired ;)... the Spirit and the Life He gives is a huge topic so we could fill books with our discussion as many books have already been filled on this, and I think the "wrestling" is Prov. 27 sharpening, and i will say it again, I would much rather discuss this person to person, because it is a "concept" worthy of much deeper discussion.
Is the evidence of the Spirit always tears and tongues? Well, when was the last time anyone has experienced tongues in a crc? From my experience, I have found it extremely rare for whatever reasons. I am not seeing any over emphasis on tongues or tears, in our denomination, and we are probably a long, long ways off from that being a "problem". Instead I usually hear comments that treat such "expressions" with disdain or fear. So I would love a holistic approach, but it has seemed like we "pick and choose" only certain elements (ie like preaching, etc) that we are more comfortable with. If I experienced or heard a testimony of us actually "shouting" to the LORD!, I would say ok, maybe I'm wrong (which I love to be proved wrong by testimonies =), and we are more open to these different "expressions" than the evidence of what my experience has shown . But I have never heard it! that doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the crc, but when I bring it up, instead of a testimony that shows I'm wrong, I often hear reasons justifying why we don't need to be doing that.
back to the mystery of how the Spirit moves... I love this quote from Duncan Campbell:
When God Stepped down... not an evangelist, not a special effort, not anything at all organized on the basis of human endeavor, but an awareness of God that gripped the whole community.
I am interested if anyone has any further insights on: Ps. 149:6 and high praise and what that might look like in worship; the different translations of Ps. 22:3 (NIV and NKJV); what does the "anointing" of the Spirit look like today, is this the same as the Spirit being "upon" someone =), and what about revivals.
ps... I became a cpa so i wouldn't have to write... =)
how fitting for our holistic approach to worship... the following is from the link to a Dallas Willard article also on the network's art. 17 thread....
As the Living Word and the written Word occupy our minds we naturally—and supernaturally—come to love God more and more because we see, clearly and constantly, how lovely He is.
The wise Puritan, Thomas Watson, wrote:
The first fruit of love is the musing of the mind upon God. He who is in love, his thoughts are ever upon the object. He who loves God is ravished and transported with the contemplation of God. “When I awake, I am still with thee” (Ps. 139:18). The thoughts are as travelers in the mind. David's thoughts kept heaven-road. “I am still with Thee.” God is the treasure, and where the treasure is, there is the heart. By this we may test our love to God. What are our thoughts most upon? Can we say we are ravished with delight when we think on God? Have our thoughts got wings? Are they fled aloft? Do we contemplate Christ and glory? ... A sinner crowds God out of his thoughts. He never thinks of God, unless with horror, as the prisoner thinks of the judge.3
In this way we enter a life, not just times, of worship. The hymn of heaven will be a constant presence in our inner lives: “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and forever” (Rev. 5:13, NASB).
Worship will become the constant undertone of our lives. It is the single most powerful force in completing and sustaining restoration of our whole beings to God. Nothing can inform, guide, and sustain pervasive and radiant goodness in a person other than the true vision of God and the worship that spontaneously arises from it. Then the power of the indwelling Christ flows from us to others.
Remember, however, that we are not trying to worship. Worship is not another job we have to do. It is one aspect of the gift of “living water” that springs “up to eternal life” (John 4:14; 7:38, NASB). Our part is to turn our minds toward God and to attend to His graceful actions in our souls. This is the primary “care of the soul” we must exercise. Then love and worship, worship and love, flow in our lives as we walk constantly with God. By stepping with Him—in the flow of His grace—we live with spontaneity, love our neighbors, and minister the word and power gospel.
Praise the Lord, He gave us His Holy Spirit to help us, comfort us, counsel us, lead us, guide us, etc...
Blain, thanks for sharing your heart & a bit of your journey... each journey is beautiful & unique in its own way, even though there are times it can be very painful, it is also very personal & profound...
May the eyes of our hearts continue to be open with the Spirit of wisdom & revelation to know our Heavenly Father, our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ more and more by the power of the Holy Spirit in each of us as His saints/holy people in our journeys of faith & praise... there's a time for high praise, a time for solemn reverence & everything in between... \o/ \o/ \o/ PTL!
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
whew... glad that helped..
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Posted in: Silence Hides Violence
Bless your hearts Safe Church! thanks for your commitment to making our congregations more aware of these abuses and concerns.
would you consider re-posting this on the SOS page? I think it would be worthwhile adding Nancy's story to that section, if Nancy is Ok with that?
you are appreciated!
Bev Sterk
Posted in: Prayer Summit Reflections
Beautiful and Amen! I think I'm going through withdrawal this week =)...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
Posted in: Is Conversion to Jesus Enough?
it is enough, but barely, as one escaping through the flames and suffering great loss/regret at what they have missed (I Cor. 3:15). not saying I understand it since heaven is perfect, but the attitude of as long as I'm in heaven, that's all that matters, so I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by the grace of Jesus, will cause deep regret at some point...
So, I see the first conversion becoming Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then the other 2 as living out loving your neighbor as yourself. But having said that, I'm sure we can work on all the areas.
- our love relationship with God, the intimacy factor, our love for Jesus, as we are His Bride, that I find makes people uncomfortable. Song of Songs, was for many centuries seen as an allegory of God and Israel, Christ and His Bride, but as the rational - modern world view took precedence, it became viewed as simply a human love story. Now as we've moved into a post-modern view, maybe it's time to re-think this book of the Bible. I will admit, I haven't wrapped my head around it yet, other than chapter 8:6-7, and that was with help, but (spiritual) intimacy with Christ, that we are His Bride, and what that looks like, is one of the concepts I'm focusing on and asking God to help me better understand, whether that's with intellectual and/or experiential knowledge.
It seems to me we have been emphasizing the loving our neighbor (ie doing justice, being missional) over and above how to walk humbly with our God, how to love Him with all our being, the spiritual formation (the intimacy/emotional) aspect. I see this in the statistics of peoples prayer life, and how much time on average/day is spent in prayer, as well as several comments made to me about the biblical illiteracy in the church, as well as other statistics that show the prevalence of addictions such as porn in the church, and in choices we make of how we spend our resources, as well as a number of other indicators.
and that leads me to how much time/resources we spend on what's eternal and what's not, and probably most of us (including myself) can cut out some non-eternal activities, and replace them with more quiet time with the LORD, or more time in worship, or more of those good works He's prepared for us in advance.
so that's my perspective from the pew =)
Posted in: Family Faith Talk
amen John... Courageous shared a powerful and priceless message... One of the things that I believe (and agree with John) needs to be restored is the "family altar", that families make an intentional effort to gather together to pray, share and read and discuss scripture. I am not finding this going on at any significant level (via a variety of ways), so unfortunately, the 85% would seem to be fairly accurate from my experience and discussions. I believe Cheryl Saks (Prayer Saturated Church) is working on a book about this, and not sure if it's out yet or not. Many have the tools, just are not making the time in often already over-loaded and busy schedules. It is about our priorities.
Posted in: Where Does the Life Come From?
The movement of the Spirit is a mystery, much like the wind (so I read "windy" as potentially Spirit inspired ;)... the Spirit and the Life He gives is a huge topic so we could fill books with our discussion as many books have already been filled on this, and I think the "wrestling" is Prov. 27 sharpening, and i will say it again, I would much rather discuss this person to person, because it is a "concept" worthy of much deeper discussion.
Is the evidence of the Spirit always tears and tongues? Well, when was the last time anyone has experienced tongues in a crc? From my experience, I have found it extremely rare for whatever reasons. I am not seeing any over emphasis on tongues or tears, in our denomination, and we are probably a long, long ways off from that being a "problem". Instead I usually hear comments that treat such "expressions" with disdain or fear. So I would love a holistic approach, but it has seemed like we "pick and choose" only certain elements (ie like preaching, etc) that we are more comfortable with. If I experienced or heard a testimony of us actually "shouting" to the LORD!, I would say ok, maybe I'm wrong (which I love to be proved wrong by testimonies =), and we are more open to these different "expressions" than the evidence of what my experience has shown . But I have never heard it! that doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the crc, but when I bring it up, instead of a testimony that shows I'm wrong, I often hear reasons justifying why we don't need to be doing that.
back to the mystery of how the Spirit moves... I love this quote from Duncan Campbell:
When God Stepped down... not an evangelist, not a special effort, not anything at all organized on the basis of human endeavor, but an awareness of God that gripped the whole community.
For the full message:. http://www.revival-library.org/leadership/rs_dcwhengod.php
I am interested if anyone has any further insights on: Ps. 149:6 and high praise and what that might look like in worship; the different translations of Ps. 22:3 (NIV and NKJV); what does the "anointing" of the Spirit look like today, is this the same as the Spirit being "upon" someone =), and what about revivals.
ps... I became a cpa so i wouldn't have to write... =)
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
Thanks for sharing this Blain... listening to it now!
(317) Phillips, Craig & Dean - My Praise - YouTube
Posted in: Where Does the Life Come From?
how fitting for our holistic approach to worship... the following is from the link to a Dallas Willard article also on the network's art. 17 thread....
http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=106
Love and Worship
As the Living Word and the written Word occupy our minds we naturally—and supernaturally—come to love God more and more because we see, clearly and constantly, how lovely He is.
The wise Puritan, Thomas Watson, wrote:
In this way we enter a life, not just times, of worship. The hymn of heaven will be a constant presence in our inner lives: “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and forever” (Rev. 5:13, NASB).
Worship will become the constant undertone of our lives. It is the single most powerful force in completing and sustaining restoration of our whole beings to God. Nothing can inform, guide, and sustain pervasive and radiant goodness in a person other than the true vision of God and the worship that spontaneously arises from it. Then the power of the indwelling Christ flows from us to others.
Remember, however, that we are not trying to worship. Worship is not another job we have to do. It is one aspect of the gift of “living water” that springs “up to eternal life” (John 4:14; 7:38, NASB). Our part is to turn our minds toward God and to attend to His graceful actions in our souls. This is the primary “care of the soul” we must exercise. Then love and worship, worship and love, flow in our lives as we walk constantly with God. By stepping with Him—in the flow of His grace—we live with spontaneity, love our neighbors, and minister the word and power gospel.
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
Praise the Lord, He gave us His Holy Spirit to help us, comfort us, counsel us, lead us, guide us, etc...
Blain, thanks for sharing your heart & a bit of your journey... each journey is beautiful & unique in its own way, even though there are times it can be very painful, it is also very personal & profound...
May the eyes of our hearts continue to be open with the Spirit of wisdom & revelation to know our Heavenly Father, our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ more and more by the power of the Holy Spirit in each of us as His saints/holy people in our journeys of faith & praise... there's a time for high praise, a time for solemn reverence & everything in between... \o/ \o/ \o/ PTL!