I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
thanks for sharing Rob, this is exactly why we need both Spirit and Truth, and a healthy balance of them...
Ok, I don't think I ever said the catechism was dry and unspiritual... I said that they have gaps, such as on the gifts of the Spirit, there's not much there... and it's not the first place I run when I have a question on something related to my faith...
The Word and prayer are my first resource, and I don't how many times, I will have a question, and often within 24 hours, through Divine orchestration, the Spirit will start to reveal insights and answers in various places... I remember one time I wanted to find a certain sermon by the Scots revivalist Duncan Campbell... I spent some frustrating time trying to listen to some scratchy sermons of his that were online, with lots of interruptions, since I have little ones, and I gave up... a few weeks later, when I was working on something totally different, the sermon I was looking for was posted on another site that I "stumbled" on, and had just been posted a week or 2 before I "found" it.
I do believe the LORD will use these confessions and catechism to stir up peoples faith, same as He might use a preacher whose message is based on the Word of God, or powerful and profound writing, ie CS Lewis' writings, Chuck Swindoll, and any number of the theologians...
Having been raised in the crc, attended a CSI school, involved in all the youth programs, sunday school, catechisms, attended a crc college... I have a very strong appreciation for grounding in the Word, and that salvation is only through the grace of Jesus Christ, it is not based on anything we do or merit... from discussions with other believers that grew up in different denominations, they didn't always get that message at the church they grew up in, and it wasn't until high school or college when they went somewhere else that they heard the gospel of Jesus' grace... So I appreciate our heritage and reformed foundation of salvation, and realize this is unfortunately rare in other denominations.
Now, one of the gaps I found in our confessions is walking in certain gifts of the Spirit and "hearing" God speak to us in our inner man, and through Divine orchestration, as well as through scripture, and always in alignment with scripture... we're (Crc) are good with the Spirit working in our heart and leading us to Christ, we are good with the Spirit convicting us of sin (though not sure how well we always listen to Him when He's convicting us), and that the Spirit helps illumine scripture, and distributes His gifts - though traditionally these have only been the non-sensational ones... ie like administration and giving and encouraging, and somehow He helps us pray...
so the gap in my life was in high school, I would have amazing conversations with the LORD, but didn't really realize what was going on... at about that time the new age garbage was coming out, and so since there were mystical similarities, I did not pursue these conversations... my prayer life became dry.. because it became a one way monologue... for almost 20 years... no one in the reformed traditions was teaching or training on "listening" to God, that He still does speak to us, now one way, and then another (and of course primarily through His Word)... so I did lots of Bible studies, which is all good of course, and lots of serving which is good too, attended church 2x a Sunday (usually) but it was not the delight that I experience now, since the LORD re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart to His Spirit's leading... now I crave my time with Him, i love abiding in the "secret place" with Him (Ps. 91:1 NKJV)... last night I had the opportunity for extended worship with other believers... 2 hours flew by... I get to spend most of my days in July contemplating/pondering as I work out in our raspberry field... I'm hungry for His Living and Active Word and have internalized more scripture in the last 5 years, than I ever did in all my school, catechism and beyond years, and even this morning as I was thinking about your questions, and how I was going to respond, I wanted to spend some time in the Word first...
Before reading Zech. this morning , I was thinking about responding on how the Spirit had transformed my life, and as I reflected on it, I wasn't sure if it was an infilling by Him, or a stripping away of what was blocking my receptivity to Him... I concluded it's probably both... and right after that I read the intro to Zechariah in the Bible that I use, which has a section on "the Holy Spirit at work" for each book of the Bible... and here's what it says: "Zerubbabel is comforted in the assurances 1) that the rebuilding of the temple will not be by military might our human prowess but by the ministry of the Spirit of God 2) that the Holy Spirit will remove every obstacle that stands against the completion of God's temple."
so 1 would be an infilling, and 2 would be removing what is blocking our receptivity to Him .. ......
that confirmed my "both" conclusion
and God's temple is us, as He indwells us through His Holy Spirit...
I have run into similar types of attitudes like you mention in the charismatic circles, for example, but that is not always the case... if you praise God for 20 minutes at a prayer meeting, then you have invited His Presence and then can request whatever you wish... one time, when I was praying with them... I felt the LORD was asking for us to keep praising Him... and the prayer leader was on the same wave... but one of the ladies was not! it was like a punch in the gut... the comment was "we already did this, we don't need to do it again, it's a waste of time" or something like that.. the prayer leader literally fell back in his chair with a very shocked look, and i was in tears, it was so harsh...
amen! Salvation is not about us... we are Jesus reward... it's all about Him, He deserves the reward (us/our souls) of His suffering... I love this sermon exposing humanitarianism in the Church by Paris Reidhead... on 10 shekels and a shirt... here's the link if you aren't familiar with the sermon. http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/tenshekels.shtml yhr
the story he shares of when he is in Africa is especially insightful...
I don't think I'm bitter about the cessationist tradition in the crc, as God's sovereignty is a key and well loved doctrine in the reformed tradition, and so I trust He had a reason to let us believe that for so long... I would say I have some frustration though, that we refuted cessationism almost 40 years ago, and seem to not have made very much progress in moving forward in the more complete power of the Spirit. I get a little irked when i hear about denominational "dominees" and professors that continued to teach cessationism after 1973... and i have to be careful not to get too snarky when we point out all these charismatic personalities, and yet John Calvin seems to be one of ours... granted most of his stuff has stood the test of time... but it's time the cessationist thinking goes... at least that's my opinion, and unfortunately the confessions and creeds do not address this very well, if at all.
hope that all makes sense... again, thanks for being willing and taking the time to get more in depth here...
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
Yes, I will further clarify, as I have found the prophetic gifting can cause a lot of misunderstandings, and so clear communications is very important... I understand that the Holy Spirit will not doing something new that's not in scripture or that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus. That is a primary test of whether a prophecy is from the Spirit or not. The Spirit will not contradict Scripture and the character of God.
The prophetic gifting is of course not dependent on a woman holding office, just like any other gift is not dependent on that.
e Paul VK's original question asked how can complementarian classis encourage women to use their gifts in classis?
When we recognize that you don't have to "hold office" to have the spiritual gift of prophecy, then women should be able to operate in this gift somehow for the edification of the church at a local level, and at a classis level and beyond?... I don't think the Holy Spirit will give women prophetic insight just regarding the kitchen and the children (I'm being a bit snarky here =). At this point in our structure, there is no official way for women in a complemantarian structure to share the prophetic insight they receive from the Holy Spirit. There is no table that they are welcome at in this way. Now, there are of course ways that these insights can be shared, but it is informal and lacking structure and often, very limited. I submit that we need to set a table, where women are invited and welcome to share and test what is being received from the Holy Spirit through the gift of prophecy in regards to the church, at whatever level, whether they hold office or not. Again, I see this gifting as an open door for women to be a part of building up the Church, whatever their "official" role in the church might be, whether the congregation/classis is complementarian or open to women in office.
BOQ... The CRC, and most modern churches have done little work on prophesy, the gift or the office. It's a good thing to work on. EOQ pvk
that is my frustration, if the gift of prophecy (and possibly the office of prophet) is a key to building and edifying the Church (and I believe it is per I Cor. 14), and we/crc/modern church are so unfamiliar with it, then of course our congregations/denominations/the Church is going to be struggling. So why aren't we pursuing it more intentionally,with eagerness, instead of trying to use other "fix it" models.
I do plan on continuing study and training in this area, and have studied it to some extent, thanks to the charismatics, even though John McArthur, a cessationist, calls it "chaos"... that's why testing is so important... I John 4:1; I Thess. 5:19-21. Yes, it has to line up with scripture, that is the key test, but there often are other "confirmations" that God gives in addition to it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us... (Acts 15:28)
I know there is much confusion on this gifting, and our cessationist tradition has not helped. The interesting thing to me is that those who like to interpret prophecy as limited to preaching and teaching are often the same ones who say women cannot preach, but if prophecy is preaching, then Acts 2 would allow them to preach. I'm not saying that's my interpretation of prophecy, but it is an interesting contradiction, we can't say prophecy is preaching and then say women are not to prophesy/preach... it cannot be both. So that should tell us we need to get a better understanding of what prophecy is...
btw, congrats on having your thread be the most commented on the network now!! =)
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
it is enough, but barely, as one escaping through the flames and suffering great loss/regret at what they have missed (I Cor. 3:15). not saying I understand it since heaven is perfect, but the attitude of as long as I'm in heaven, that's all that matters, so I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by the grace of Jesus, will cause deep regret at some point...
So, I see the first conversion becoming Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then the other 2 as living out loving your neighbor as yourself. But having said that, I'm sure we can work on all the areas.
- our love relationship with God, the intimacy factor, our love for Jesus, as we are His Bride, that I find makes people uncomfortable. Song of Songs, was for many centuries seen as an allegory of God and Israel, Christ and His Bride, but as the rational - modern world view took precedence, it became viewed as simply a human love story. Now as we've moved into a post-modern view, maybe it's time to re-think this book of the Bible. I will admit, I haven't wrapped my head around it yet, other than chapter 8:6-7, and that was with help, but (spiritual) intimacy with Christ, that we are His Bride, and what that looks like, is one of the concepts I'm focusing on and asking God to help me better understand, whether that's with intellectual and/or experiential knowledge.
It seems to me we have been emphasizing the loving our neighbor (ie doing justice, being missional) over and above how to walk humbly with our God, how to love Him with all our being, the spiritual formation (the intimacy/emotional) aspect. I see this in the statistics of peoples prayer life, and how much time on average/day is spent in prayer, as well as several comments made to me about the biblical illiteracy in the church, as well as other statistics that show the prevalence of addictions such as porn in the church, and in choices we make of how we spend our resources, as well as a number of other indicators.
and that leads me to how much time/resources we spend on what's eternal and what's not, and probably most of us (including myself) can cut out some non-eternal activities, and replace them with more quiet time with the LORD, or more time in worship, or more of those good works He's prepared for us in advance.
amen John... Courageous shared a powerful and priceless message... One of the things that I believe (and agree with John) needs to be restored is the "family altar", that families make an intentional effort to gather together to pray, share and read and discuss scripture. I am not finding this going on at any significant level (via a variety of ways), so unfortunately, the 85% would seem to be fairly accurate from my experience and discussions. I believe Cheryl Saks (Prayer Saturated Church) is working on a book about this, and not sure if it's out yet or not. Many have the tools, just are not making the time in often already over-loaded and busy schedules. It is about our priorities.
Great question, definitely worthy of lots of contemplation and discussion... thanks Rich, for taking the time to share your thoughts. I too waited a few days to ponder it before sharing... I have lots of thoughts, but will try to limit it =)... and sometimes I cringe at sharing this via computer, vs. face to face... I would so much rather have this discussion in person! to get your feedback, your sharpening... but I'll be content that at least we can discuss it in this format to some extent. So, test, test, test... Don't let me get away with anything that does not line up with His Word!
I think this concept of the Spirit given life in worship is one of the reasons many (particularly of the younger generation) left the crc, even though they couldn't articulate what it was that was "missing", but they found more of that Spirit "life" in other worship services. Now, I'm not saying the Spirit is not in the crc worship at all and that we don't have much "life", but we do have some "residue" in our history of not being real open to Him (think cessationism), as the 3rd person of the Trinity. We're great on the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin, leading us to salvation, and maybe illumination of scripture, but some of the other areas, we've been somewhat resistant to Him (the degree and reasons are debatable). CRC forbid (literally) that we might have experienced the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as a 2nd blessing apart from our conversion. This is an entire discussion in itself. But when we (the CrC), state as a position, that basically anyone who has experienced this as a 2nd blessing, is disqualified from office, then we had better be very sure that the Holy Spirit never does that. Because if He does, even if it's rare (Acts 19), then we could be seriously quenching and mis representing Him. I have read and re-read Gordon Fee's position (Gospel and Spirit; Issues in NT Hermeneutics; 1991; Chapter 7, p105-119) on this several times, which does not agree with our official position per the crc website. http://www.crcna.org/pages/positions_pentecostalism.cfm
I think we/crc have to be very careful in saying that He doesn't ever do that! Because if He does, and we say He doesn't... not good!
Ok, but Joy's asking about worship. Well, when we "quench" and resist Him in other areas, why should we expect that He will "show" up for worship? He often does, because He is loving and gracious and generous and He is God, and it's for His glory and our good. I have seen Him "show up" for those who are truly seeking God. They're not looking for a show or some manifestation (there are those who only want to see the signs and wonders - Matt.12:39), but some are truly seeking God! On the flip side you have unbelief which limits (Matt. 17:17, 13:58), even within the Church.
One of the NIV translations I struggle with is Psalm 22:3. Many other versions state that He inhabits/enthroned in the praises of Israel (His people). This concept might alter how we view our worship of Him! Not saying the NIV's is wrong, but maybe there is another level to this that we're missing, as the original text is unclear how to separate the thoughts.
Going over Joy's questions:
Q 1 Isn’t the Holy Spirit the source of life and the one who shapes our hearts and minds for worship? If this same Spirit abides in us and in our churches, why does the “life” of worship seem to ebb and flow? Is it the Spirit’s fault?
part 1 - The Holy Spirit gives life (John 6:63) so yes.... and He helps us worship in Spirit AND Truth.
part 2 - I think we can quench/resist Him for many reasons, not be in tune with Him, however you want to phrase it... one concept the LORD has put on my heart is about giving Him our highest praise (Psalm 149:6 NKJV - and I'm baffled at why the word "high"/rowmemah is not in the NIV here). Unfortunately, it seems like sometimes our high praise is reserved for our favorite sports team instead. Not saying worship always has to be loud, but there are times it should be (Ezra 3:13, Ps. 100; 47:1, and many more =) When's the last time everyone shouted in a crc worship service? have to confess, I've only done this at charismatic type gatherings.
part 3 - is it the Spirit's fault? Of course not, If He's not "showing" up, then it has to do with us and our hearts (and our spiritual "ears"), and possibly a season of testing (dark night of the soul idea) which would be rare and more individual than an entire congregation experiencing this.
Q2 Is it the worship planner who selected the ‘wrong songs’ –too wordy, too old, too new, too simple, too schmaltzy, too intellectual, etc. . . . ?
possibly, if they are only picking songs based on what they like, instead of asking the Holy Spirit to guide them with which songs to select. In my personal worship experience, the genre, age, style, language of the music has never limited the Holy Spirit if He so chooses to minister to me that way, that day. He can use any song, from any time, secular or Christian. He can use simple vocalizing (no words) to melt me sometimes. He has used songs in Hebrew to melt me. He has used songs 1000+ years old, and songs only days old, and sometimes even minutes old, being "made" up even as they are being sung. I made the "mistake" one time of wanting to skip an Avalon concert, and thinking that I preferred the speaking (this was at a women of faith conference). God let me keep my bad attitude about music for less than 1 minute after the music began, and I became a sobbing puddle, the entire concert. No time for "whipped up" emotionalism. He melted me almost immediately. What the LORD impressed on me, was "don't limit Me, I can use anything anywhere to minister to you." Now, were the people beside me a sobbing mess. Nope, just me! It was so powerful, that every time I heard one of their songs up to a year later, I would instantly have tears. That's the power and life of the Spirit.
Q3 Is it the musicians’ fault? Good music was selected but it was played without life.
possibly... if they are playing for performance, instead of worship... I have heard music that is out of tune, or with mistakes, but the Holy Spirit was present in their worship, and that "offering" led me to higher, more intimate worship, then the most gifted musician has done.
Q4 Is it the preacher’s fault? Would one more cup of coffee have done the trick that morning?
Not going there =) !
Q5Q q qQ5 Is it the congregation’s fault? All the leaders have done all they can, but the people come without the heart to worship and it just falls flat.
Could be... but when I experience the Spirit in worship, I find that others might not have, and usually not in the same way. Honestly, when I think about when I don't experience "life" from the Spirit in worship, it's when I'm primarily operating in the flesh and the intellect (my own understanding (Prov 3).
Ok, i know this isn't the norm, but a year or two ago, i had a dream, in it, there were three groups of people, those with earplugs, those with tubes in their ears (like for ear infections), and those with ear wax/gunk. I've been studying listening prayer for several years, and what this represented was 3 groups of people who could not hear the voice of the Spirit well. The first group purposely plugged their ears because they did not want to hear the Spirit "speak" to them, some preferred their own intellect, some out of fear, some wanted "control", or whatever reason they chose. The 2nd group was those who had been damaged/hurt by "words" given to them that were wrong, or inappropriately shared, and so could not hear the Spirit's Voice well because of past injury, and the 3rd group were those who had heard lies (gunk) about listening to the Spirit, ie, like He doesn't do that anymore, or only special people like pastors are the only ones He speaks to. in the dream, the LORD was healing and cleaning the "ears" of the 2nd 2 groups, but only occasionally would He pull out the "intentional" earplugs, He generally left that up to those who put them in the first place. They had to choose to take them out. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone, and again, I know dreams aren't our "usual" type of crc conversation, but I share this because I think it's a picture of how we have been unable to hear His "voice" very well, for whatever reasons, which I think has limited us to some extent to experiencing His life giving Spirit through worship. Test this, particularly keeping John 10 in mind.
I will testify, listening prayer, changed my faith walk and my worship from duty to delight. I sense the Spirit in worship far more often, and far more powerfully, then i ever did "before", when worship was primarily intellect.
Yes, the Spirit gives life, we need to be more in tune with Him, open to His leading and guidance. Ok, the Holy Spirit and listening prayer is a huge subject, but I think "listening" is part of the answer. so again, please test! That's how sharpening happens!
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
thanks for sharing Rob, this is exactly why we need both Spirit and Truth, and a healthy balance of them...
Ok, I don't think I ever said the catechism was dry and unspiritual... I said that they have gaps, such as on the gifts of the Spirit, there's not much there... and it's not the first place I run when I have a question on something related to my faith...
The Word and prayer are my first resource, and I don't how many times, I will have a question, and often within 24 hours, through Divine orchestration, the Spirit will start to reveal insights and answers in various places... I remember one time I wanted to find a certain sermon by the Scots revivalist Duncan Campbell... I spent some frustrating time trying to listen to some scratchy sermons of his that were online, with lots of interruptions, since I have little ones, and I gave up... a few weeks later, when I was working on something totally different, the sermon I was looking for was posted on another site that I "stumbled" on, and had just been posted a week or 2 before I "found" it.
I do believe the LORD will use these confessions and catechism to stir up peoples faith, same as He might use a preacher whose message is based on the Word of God, or powerful and profound writing, ie CS Lewis' writings, Chuck Swindoll, and any number of the theologians...
Having been raised in the crc, attended a CSI school, involved in all the youth programs, sunday school, catechisms, attended a crc college... I have a very strong appreciation for grounding in the Word, and that salvation is only through the grace of Jesus Christ, it is not based on anything we do or merit... from discussions with other believers that grew up in different denominations, they didn't always get that message at the church they grew up in, and it wasn't until high school or college when they went somewhere else that they heard the gospel of Jesus' grace... So I appreciate our heritage and reformed foundation of salvation, and realize this is unfortunately rare in other denominations.
Now, one of the gaps I found in our confessions is walking in certain gifts of the Spirit and "hearing" God speak to us in our inner man, and through Divine orchestration, as well as through scripture, and always in alignment with scripture... we're (Crc) are good with the Spirit working in our heart and leading us to Christ, we are good with the Spirit convicting us of sin (though not sure how well we always listen to Him when He's convicting us), and that the Spirit helps illumine scripture, and distributes His gifts - though traditionally these have only been the non-sensational ones... ie like administration and giving and encouraging, and somehow He helps us pray...
so the gap in my life was in high school, I would have amazing conversations with the LORD, but didn't really realize what was going on... at about that time the new age garbage was coming out, and so since there were mystical similarities, I did not pursue these conversations... my prayer life became dry.. because it became a one way monologue... for almost 20 years... no one in the reformed traditions was teaching or training on "listening" to God, that He still does speak to us, now one way, and then another (and of course primarily through His Word)... so I did lots of Bible studies, which is all good of course, and lots of serving which is good too, attended church 2x a Sunday (usually) but it was not the delight that I experience now, since the LORD re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart to His Spirit's leading... now I crave my time with Him, i love abiding in the "secret place" with Him (Ps. 91:1 NKJV)... last night I had the opportunity for extended worship with other believers... 2 hours flew by... I get to spend most of my days in July contemplating/pondering as I work out in our raspberry field... I'm hungry for His Living and Active Word and have internalized more scripture in the last 5 years, than I ever did in all my school, catechism and beyond years, and even this morning as I was thinking about your questions, and how I was going to respond, I wanted to spend some time in the Word first...
Before reading Zech. this morning , I was thinking about responding on how the Spirit had transformed my life, and as I reflected on it, I wasn't sure if it was an infilling by Him, or a stripping away of what was blocking my receptivity to Him... I concluded it's probably both... and right after that I read the intro to Zechariah in the Bible that I use, which has a section on "the Holy Spirit at work" for each book of the Bible... and here's what it says: "Zerubbabel is comforted in the assurances 1) that the rebuilding of the temple will not be by military might our human prowess but by the ministry of the Spirit of God 2) that the Holy Spirit will remove every obstacle that stands against the completion of God's temple."
so 1 would be an infilling, and 2 would be removing what is blocking our receptivity to Him .. ......
that confirmed my "both" conclusion
and God's temple is us, as He indwells us through His Holy Spirit...
I have run into similar types of attitudes like you mention in the charismatic circles, for example, but that is not always the case... if you praise God for 20 minutes at a prayer meeting, then you have invited His Presence and then can request whatever you wish... one time, when I was praying with them... I felt the LORD was asking for us to keep praising Him... and the prayer leader was on the same wave... but one of the ladies was not! it was like a punch in the gut... the comment was "we already did this, we don't need to do it again, it's a waste of time" or something like that.. the prayer leader literally fell back in his chair with a very shocked look, and i was in tears, it was so harsh...
amen! Salvation is not about us... we are Jesus reward... it's all about Him, He deserves the reward (us/our souls) of His suffering... I love this sermon exposing humanitarianism in the Church by Paris Reidhead... on 10 shekels and a shirt... here's the link if you aren't familiar with the sermon. http://www.parisreidheadbibleteachingministries.org/tenshekels.shtml yhr
the story he shares of when he is in Africa is especially insightful...
I don't think I'm bitter about the cessationist tradition in the crc, as God's sovereignty is a key and well loved doctrine in the reformed tradition, and so I trust He had a reason to let us believe that for so long... I would say I have some frustration though, that we refuted cessationism almost 40 years ago, and seem to not have made very much progress in moving forward in the more complete power of the Spirit. I get a little irked when i hear about denominational "dominees" and professors that continued to teach cessationism after 1973... and i have to be careful not to get too snarky when we point out all these charismatic personalities, and yet John Calvin seems to be one of ours... granted most of his stuff has stood the test of time... but it's time the cessationist thinking goes... at least that's my opinion, and unfortunately the confessions and creeds do not address this very well, if at all.
hope that all makes sense... again, thanks for being willing and taking the time to get more in depth here...
Posted in: Prayer Summit Reflections
Beautiful and Amen! I think I'm going through withdrawal this week =)...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Yes, I will further clarify, as I have found the prophetic gifting can cause a lot of misunderstandings, and so clear communications is very important... I understand that the Holy Spirit will not doing something new that's not in scripture or that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus. That is a primary test of whether a prophecy is from the Spirit or not. The Spirit will not contradict Scripture and the character of God.
The prophetic gifting is of course not dependent on a woman holding office, just like any other gift is not dependent on that.
e Paul VK's original question asked how can complementarian classis encourage women to use their gifts in classis?
When we recognize that you don't have to "hold office" to have the spiritual gift of prophecy, then women should be able to operate in this gift somehow for the edification of the church at a local level, and at a classis level and beyond?... I don't think the Holy Spirit will give women prophetic insight just regarding the kitchen and the children (I'm being a bit snarky here =). At this point in our structure, there is no official way for women in a complemantarian structure to share the prophetic insight they receive from the Holy Spirit. There is no table that they are welcome at in this way. Now, there are of course ways that these insights can be shared, but it is informal and lacking structure and often, very limited. I submit that we need to set a table, where women are invited and welcome to share and test what is being received from the Holy Spirit through the gift of prophecy in regards to the church, at whatever level, whether they hold office or not. Again, I see this gifting as an open door for women to be a part of building up the Church, whatever their "official" role in the church might be, whether the congregation/classis is complementarian or open to women in office.
I hope that helps clarify?
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Thanks Paul...
BOQ... The CRC, and most modern churches have done little work on prophesy, the gift or the office. It's a good thing to work on. EOQ pvk
that is my frustration, if the gift of prophecy (and possibly the office of prophet) is a key to building and edifying the Church (and I believe it is per I Cor. 14), and we/crc/modern church are so unfamiliar with it, then of course our congregations/denominations/the Church is going to be struggling. So why aren't we pursuing it more intentionally,with eagerness, instead of trying to use other "fix it" models.
I do plan on continuing study and training in this area, and have studied it to some extent, thanks to the charismatics, even though John McArthur, a cessationist, calls it "chaos"... that's why testing is so important... I John 4:1; I Thess. 5:19-21. Yes, it has to line up with scripture, that is the key test, but there often are other "confirmations" that God gives in addition to it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us... (Acts 15:28)
I know there is much confusion on this gifting, and our cessationist tradition has not helped. The interesting thing to me is that those who like to interpret prophecy as limited to preaching and teaching are often the same ones who say women cannot preach, but if prophecy is preaching, then Acts 2 would allow them to preach. I'm not saying that's my interpretation of prophecy, but it is an interesting contradiction, we can't say prophecy is preaching and then say women are not to prophesy/preach... it cannot be both. So that should tell us we need to get a better understanding of what prophecy is...
btw, congrats on having your thread be the most commented on the network now!! =)
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
whew... glad that helped..
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Posted in: Silence Hides Violence
Bless your hearts Safe Church! thanks for your commitment to making our congregations more aware of these abuses and concerns.
would you consider re-posting this on the SOS page? I think it would be worthwhile adding Nancy's story to that section, if Nancy is Ok with that?
you are appreciated!
Bev Sterk
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Posted in: Is Conversion to Jesus Enough?
it is enough, but barely, as one escaping through the flames and suffering great loss/regret at what they have missed (I Cor. 3:15). not saying I understand it since heaven is perfect, but the attitude of as long as I'm in heaven, that's all that matters, so I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by the grace of Jesus, will cause deep regret at some point...
So, I see the first conversion becoming Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then the other 2 as living out loving your neighbor as yourself. But having said that, I'm sure we can work on all the areas.
- our love relationship with God, the intimacy factor, our love for Jesus, as we are His Bride, that I find makes people uncomfortable. Song of Songs, was for many centuries seen as an allegory of God and Israel, Christ and His Bride, but as the rational - modern world view took precedence, it became viewed as simply a human love story. Now as we've moved into a post-modern view, maybe it's time to re-think this book of the Bible. I will admit, I haven't wrapped my head around it yet, other than chapter 8:6-7, and that was with help, but (spiritual) intimacy with Christ, that we are His Bride, and what that looks like, is one of the concepts I'm focusing on and asking God to help me better understand, whether that's with intellectual and/or experiential knowledge.
It seems to me we have been emphasizing the loving our neighbor (ie doing justice, being missional) over and above how to walk humbly with our God, how to love Him with all our being, the spiritual formation (the intimacy/emotional) aspect. I see this in the statistics of peoples prayer life, and how much time on average/day is spent in prayer, as well as several comments made to me about the biblical illiteracy in the church, as well as other statistics that show the prevalence of addictions such as porn in the church, and in choices we make of how we spend our resources, as well as a number of other indicators.
and that leads me to how much time/resources we spend on what's eternal and what's not, and probably most of us (including myself) can cut out some non-eternal activities, and replace them with more quiet time with the LORD, or more time in worship, or more of those good works He's prepared for us in advance.
so that's my perspective from the pew =)
Posted in: Family Faith Talk
amen John... Courageous shared a powerful and priceless message... One of the things that I believe (and agree with John) needs to be restored is the "family altar", that families make an intentional effort to gather together to pray, share and read and discuss scripture. I am not finding this going on at any significant level (via a variety of ways), so unfortunately, the 85% would seem to be fairly accurate from my experience and discussions. I believe Cheryl Saks (Prayer Saturated Church) is working on a book about this, and not sure if it's out yet or not. Many have the tools, just are not making the time in often already over-loaded and busy schedules. It is about our priorities.
Posted in: Where Does the Life Come From?
Great question, definitely worthy of lots of contemplation and discussion... thanks Rich, for taking the time to share your thoughts. I too waited a few days to ponder it before sharing... I have lots of thoughts, but will try to limit it =)... and sometimes I cringe at sharing this via computer, vs. face to face... I would so much rather have this discussion in person! to get your feedback, your sharpening... but I'll be content that at least we can discuss it in this format to some extent. So, test, test, test... Don't let me get away with anything that does not line up with His Word!
I think this concept of the Spirit given life in worship is one of the reasons many (particularly of the younger generation) left the crc, even though they couldn't articulate what it was that was "missing", but they found more of that Spirit "life" in other worship services. Now, I'm not saying the Spirit is not in the crc worship at all and that we don't have much "life", but we do have some "residue" in our history of not being real open to Him (think cessationism), as the 3rd person of the Trinity. We're great on the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin, leading us to salvation, and maybe illumination of scripture, but some of the other areas, we've been somewhat resistant to Him (the degree and reasons are debatable). CRC forbid (literally) that we might have experienced the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as a 2nd blessing apart from our conversion. This is an entire discussion in itself. But when we (the CrC), state as a position, that basically anyone who has experienced this as a 2nd blessing, is disqualified from office, then we had better be very sure that the Holy Spirit never does that. Because if He does, even if it's rare (Acts 19), then we could be seriously quenching and mis representing Him. I have read and re-read Gordon Fee's position (Gospel and Spirit; Issues in NT Hermeneutics; 1991; Chapter 7, p105-119) on this several times, which does not agree with our official position per the crc website. http://www.crcna.org/pages/positions_pentecostalism.cfm
I think we/crc have to be very careful in saying that He doesn't ever do that! Because if He does, and we say He doesn't... not good!
Ok, but Joy's asking about worship. Well, when we "quench" and resist Him in other areas, why should we expect that He will "show" up for worship? He often does, because He is loving and gracious and generous and He is God, and it's for His glory and our good. I have seen Him "show up" for those who are truly seeking God. They're not looking for a show or some manifestation (there are those who only want to see the signs and wonders - Matt.12:39), but some are truly seeking God! On the flip side you have unbelief which limits (Matt. 17:17, 13:58), even within the Church.
One of the NIV translations I struggle with is Psalm 22:3. Many other versions state that He inhabits/enthroned in the praises of Israel (His people). This concept might alter how we view our worship of Him! Not saying the NIV's is wrong, but maybe there is another level to this that we're missing, as the original text is unclear how to separate the thoughts.
Going over Joy's questions:
Q 1 Isn’t the Holy Spirit the source of life and the one who shapes our hearts and minds for worship? If this same Spirit abides in us and in our churches, why does the “life” of worship seem to ebb and flow? Is it the Spirit’s fault?
part 1 - The Holy Spirit gives life (John 6:63) so yes.... and He helps us worship in Spirit AND Truth.
part 2 - I think we can quench/resist Him for many reasons, not be in tune with Him, however you want to phrase it... one concept the LORD has put on my heart is about giving Him our highest praise (Psalm 149:6 NKJV - and I'm baffled at why the word "high"/rowmemah is not in the NIV here). Unfortunately, it seems like sometimes our high praise is reserved for our favorite sports team instead. Not saying worship always has to be loud, but there are times it should be (Ezra 3:13, Ps. 100; 47:1, and many more =) When's the last time everyone shouted in a crc worship service? have to confess, I've only done this at charismatic type gatherings.
part 3 - is it the Spirit's fault? Of course not, If He's not "showing" up, then it has to do with us and our hearts (and our spiritual "ears"), and possibly a season of testing (dark night of the soul idea) which would be rare and more individual than an entire congregation experiencing this.
Q2 Is it the worship planner who selected the ‘wrong songs’ –too wordy, too old, too new, too simple, too schmaltzy, too intellectual, etc. . . . ?
possibly, if they are only picking songs based on what they like, instead of asking the Holy Spirit to guide them with which songs to select. In my personal worship experience, the genre, age, style, language of the music has never limited the Holy Spirit if He so chooses to minister to me that way, that day. He can use any song, from any time, secular or Christian. He can use simple vocalizing (no words) to melt me sometimes. He has used songs in Hebrew to melt me. He has used songs 1000+ years old, and songs only days old, and sometimes even minutes old, being "made" up even as they are being sung. I made the "mistake" one time of wanting to skip an Avalon concert, and thinking that I preferred the speaking (this was at a women of faith conference). God let me keep my bad attitude about music for less than 1 minute after the music began, and I became a sobbing puddle, the entire concert. No time for "whipped up" emotionalism. He melted me almost immediately. What the LORD impressed on me, was "don't limit Me, I can use anything anywhere to minister to you." Now, were the people beside me a sobbing mess. Nope, just me! It was so powerful, that every time I heard one of their songs up to a year later, I would instantly have tears. That's the power and life of the Spirit.
possibly... if they are playing for performance, instead of worship... I have heard music that is out of tune, or with mistakes, but the Holy Spirit was present in their worship, and that "offering" led me to higher, more intimate worship, then the most gifted musician has done.
Not going there =) !
Could be... but when I experience the Spirit in worship, I find that others might not have, and usually not in the same way. Honestly, when I think about when I don't experience "life" from the Spirit in worship, it's when I'm primarily operating in the flesh and the intellect (my own understanding (Prov 3).
Ok, i know this isn't the norm, but a year or two ago, i had a dream, in it, there were three groups of people, those with earplugs, those with tubes in their ears (like for ear infections), and those with ear wax/gunk. I've been studying listening prayer for several years, and what this represented was 3 groups of people who could not hear the voice of the Spirit well. The first group purposely plugged their ears because they did not want to hear the Spirit "speak" to them, some preferred their own intellect, some out of fear, some wanted "control", or whatever reason they chose. The 2nd group was those who had been damaged/hurt by "words" given to them that were wrong, or inappropriately shared, and so could not hear the Spirit's Voice well because of past injury, and the 3rd group were those who had heard lies (gunk) about listening to the Spirit, ie, like He doesn't do that anymore, or only special people like pastors are the only ones He speaks to. in the dream, the LORD was healing and cleaning the "ears" of the 2nd 2 groups, but only occasionally would He pull out the "intentional" earplugs, He generally left that up to those who put them in the first place. They had to choose to take them out. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone, and again, I know dreams aren't our "usual" type of crc conversation, but I share this because I think it's a picture of how we have been unable to hear His "voice" very well, for whatever reasons, which I think has limited us to some extent to experiencing His life giving Spirit through worship. Test this, particularly keeping John 10 in mind.
I will testify, listening prayer, changed my faith walk and my worship from duty to delight. I sense the Spirit in worship far more often, and far more powerfully, then i ever did "before", when worship was primarily intellect.
Yes, the Spirit gives life, we need to be more in tune with Him, open to His leading and guidance. Ok, the Holy Spirit and listening prayer is a huge subject, but I think "listening" is part of the answer. so again, please test! That's how sharpening happens!