I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
and absolutely, the scripture is authoritative... every prophecy must line up with what's in God's word... that is our safety net, that is our protection, that is our plumline, that is how we test it!
My comment addresses thoughts about whether these confessions are relevant and how we might struggle with them. I think this thread brings out those concerns, even though maybe it wasn't the primary intent of the article, and maybe these concerns need to be discussed in another thread, but I see questions being stirred up through this discussion.
so one question I have is, where can we discuss our concerns with these confessions? the areas that we struggle with...without being in danger of being tried for heresy? or struggling privately with it for many years, and then leaving the denom. because there's no healthy place to discuss our struggles/doubts. iron sharpens iron, and I think that is something we all want so...
I will risk it here ;)..
I will ris I I would say these documents are mostly relevant at a foundational level (although it would be interesting to have a discussion on the doctrine of election, particularly including those from other denominations, because I cringe sometimes when we arrogantly think we are more "right" than other denoms.... Ez. 18:23-32 comes to mind re election, we could have an interesting discussion on infant baptism as well), but my main struggle with these documents, is that there are gaps - that is what can make them irrelevant regarding certain aspects of scripture...
and so here are a few of my thoughts...
b4 i start, here's a list of acronyms =) just in case... PH = Psalter Hymnal, HC = Heidleberg Catechism, Q&A = question and answer, CD = Canons of Dordt, and BC = Belgic Confession
Ok, this thread prompted me to pull out the PH and read through the HC again, a few nights ago, and also read through the CD and BC... I want to honor the creeds and confessions, and recognize that there is a lot of solid "stuff" (sorry, I'm not going to get too technical) in them and they give a solid foundation to our faith, but there are things I struggle with... the last section of HC Q&A 80, is one example. Another aspect I struggle with, is that there are gaps... for example in Q&A 83, 2 keys of the Kingdom are mentioned, I believe there are several and possibly many more keys, such as love and prayer and obedience and ???,but the HC only mentions 2 here... same w. Q&A 65, are there more ways that our faith is confirmed? When we use the catechism, are we only sticking to those 2 points, or are we expanding it to include more? or do we miss out on other ways, because we just focus on what the catechism gives us?
In the BC, we have support for the offices of pastor, elder and deacon, but what about prophets, evangelists and teachers (and apostles is an entire discussion in itself)?
Then between all of them, I think only the HC briefly mentions the gifts of the Spirit (Q&A51). But what do those gifts include... What is the gift of prophecy? What is a word of wisdom through the Spirit? What is a word of knowledge through the Spirit?
So, as the prophetic gifting is being stirred up these days, these historic confessions and creeds don't give me a whole lot to connect with on this particular aspect, so in this way they are not relevant. Make sense? I hope through the Spirit it does...
so in conclusion, both sides are right... they can be relevant or irrelevant, depending on what we're discussing...
all right, this has opened the door on some other questions, that yes, I think need to be discussed and wrestled with in an honest, open way... I think that will help bring ownership to what we believe, instead of just getting spoon fed the traditional position, however right that might be.
thanks Chad, for your thoughtful reply... if you and family are ever on the less sunny side of the cascades, up in Lynden area, would love to connect with ya'll =)...
I don't agree that some of our positions are as clear as we would like to think... that's why we have so many denominations with varying doctrines on baptism (infant, believer and baptism of the Holy Spirit) election and pre-destination (inclusivism/exclusivism), communion, (symbolic, transubstantiation, consubstantiation, etc), end times (a mill, pre mill, post trib, mid trib etc), because the diversity of doctrines tells me it is not clear, and the biblical support is sometimes stronger for another position. These have been debated over the ages, and we are still debating them with brothers and sisters in Christ. I have some concern for our positions, because of our history of cessationism... how did we get that one so wrong? This was a huge error. If we weren't intentionally listening to the Spirit historically or moving fully in the prophetic gifting for the prior several centuries, how much is our own thinking/understanding, and what was Spirit led? Even 40 years after the crc refuted cessationism, it seems we are still very cautious and skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit, of how God speaks to us through His Spirit, to lead and guide us daily in our walk with Him. I know there are reasons, but we it seems we close the door on it for a variety of reasons, instead of how do we walk in the prophetic gifting in a biblical way.
Now, because God is God, and a generous and gracious God and He loves us as part of His Bride, He has been leading us to some extent through the Spirit, but I can only shake my head with sadness at what we have missed because we have not been intentionally listening to Him through prayer, because we have not been walking in the prophetic gifting that the Spirit has given us (well that depends on one's definition of the prophetic gifting). Cessationism has caused us to significantly miss walking in the power of the Spirit, and instead primarily rely on our intellect.
and since you mentioned the Westminster, so when the Westminster confessions says in Ch 1.I regarding the Holy Scripture... "...those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
" How do you understand, what ways have ceased? was the WC only referring to God inspiring more canon (which we all agree on), or was it referring to God speaking prophetically to us, for a specific time, place, people, etc. (which we don't agree on)? As I understand, this is part of how cessationism became part of our history...
again, not sure if this is the thread to discuss this, but these are questions behind the FOS and COB, i will keep wrestling, but part of that wrestling, is others sharing their insights and how they got to their position on whatever it is, that which is called a testimony =) so keep sharpening and sharing!!
and I'm not so sure, if we do have safety in questioning some deeply held positions when we don't end up at the same place as the confessions, especially if you are a pastor or spiritual leader.
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
Yes, I will further clarify, as I have found the prophetic gifting can cause a lot of misunderstandings, and so clear communications is very important... I understand that the Holy Spirit will not doing something new that's not in scripture or that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus. That is a primary test of whether a prophecy is from the Spirit or not. The Spirit will not contradict Scripture and the character of God.
The prophetic gifting is of course not dependent on a woman holding office, just like any other gift is not dependent on that.
e Paul VK's original question asked how can complementarian classis encourage women to use their gifts in classis?
When we recognize that you don't have to "hold office" to have the spiritual gift of prophecy, then women should be able to operate in this gift somehow for the edification of the church at a local level, and at a classis level and beyond?... I don't think the Holy Spirit will give women prophetic insight just regarding the kitchen and the children (I'm being a bit snarky here =). At this point in our structure, there is no official way for women in a complemantarian structure to share the prophetic insight they receive from the Holy Spirit. There is no table that they are welcome at in this way. Now, there are of course ways that these insights can be shared, but it is informal and lacking structure and often, very limited. I submit that we need to set a table, where women are invited and welcome to share and test what is being received from the Holy Spirit through the gift of prophecy in regards to the church, at whatever level, whether they hold office or not. Again, I see this gifting as an open door for women to be a part of building up the Church, whatever their "official" role in the church might be, whether the congregation/classis is complementarian or open to women in office.
BOQ... The CRC, and most modern churches have done little work on prophesy, the gift or the office. It's a good thing to work on. EOQ pvk
that is my frustration, if the gift of prophecy (and possibly the office of prophet) is a key to building and edifying the Church (and I believe it is per I Cor. 14), and we/crc/modern church are so unfamiliar with it, then of course our congregations/denominations/the Church is going to be struggling. So why aren't we pursuing it more intentionally,with eagerness, instead of trying to use other "fix it" models.
I do plan on continuing study and training in this area, and have studied it to some extent, thanks to the charismatics, even though John McArthur, a cessationist, calls it "chaos"... that's why testing is so important... I John 4:1; I Thess. 5:19-21. Yes, it has to line up with scripture, that is the key test, but there often are other "confirmations" that God gives in addition to it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us... (Acts 15:28)
I know there is much confusion on this gifting, and our cessationist tradition has not helped. The interesting thing to me is that those who like to interpret prophecy as limited to preaching and teaching are often the same ones who say women cannot preach, but if prophecy is preaching, then Acts 2 would allow them to preach. I'm not saying that's my interpretation of prophecy, but it is an interesting contradiction, we can't say prophecy is preaching and then say women are not to prophesy/preach... it cannot be both. So that should tell us we need to get a better understanding of what prophecy is...
btw, congrats on having your thread be the most commented on the network now!! =)
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
and absolutely, the scripture is authoritative... every prophecy must line up with what's in God's word... that is our safety net, that is our protection, that is our plumline, that is how we test it!
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
My comment addresses thoughts about whether these confessions are relevant and how we might struggle with them. I think this thread brings out those concerns, even though maybe it wasn't the primary intent of the article, and maybe these concerns need to be discussed in another thread, but I see questions being stirred up through this discussion.
so one question I have is, where can we discuss our concerns with these confessions? the areas that we struggle with...without being in danger of being tried for heresy? or struggling privately with it for many years, and then leaving the denom. because there's no healthy place to discuss our struggles/doubts. iron sharpens iron, and I think that is something we all want so...
I will risk it here ;)..
I will ris I I would say these documents are mostly relevant at a foundational level (although it would be interesting to have a discussion on the doctrine of election, particularly including those from other denominations, because I cringe sometimes when we arrogantly think we are more "right" than other denoms.... Ez. 18:23-32 comes to mind re election, we could have an interesting discussion on infant baptism as well), but my main struggle with these documents, is that there are gaps - that is what can make them irrelevant regarding certain aspects of scripture...
and so here are a few of my thoughts...
b4 i start, here's a list of acronyms =) just in case... PH = Psalter Hymnal, HC = Heidleberg Catechism, Q&A = question and answer, CD = Canons of Dordt, and BC = Belgic Confession
Ok, this thread prompted me to pull out the PH and read through the HC again, a few nights ago, and also read through the CD and BC... I want to honor the creeds and confessions, and recognize that there is a lot of solid "stuff" (sorry, I'm not going to get too technical) in them and they give a solid foundation to our faith, but there are things I struggle with... the last section of HC Q&A 80, is one example. Another aspect I struggle with, is that there are gaps... for example in Q&A 83, 2 keys of the Kingdom are mentioned, I believe there are several and possibly many more keys, such as love and prayer and obedience and ???,but the HC only mentions 2 here... same w. Q&A 65, are there more ways that our faith is confirmed? When we use the catechism, are we only sticking to those 2 points, or are we expanding it to include more? or do we miss out on other ways, because we just focus on what the catechism gives us?
In the BC, we have support for the offices of pastor, elder and deacon, but what about prophets, evangelists and teachers (and apostles is an entire discussion in itself)?
Then between all of them, I think only the HC briefly mentions the gifts of the Spirit (Q&A51). But what do those gifts include... What is the gift of prophecy? What is a word of wisdom through the Spirit? What is a word of knowledge through the Spirit?
So, as the prophetic gifting is being stirred up these days, these historic confessions and creeds don't give me a whole lot to connect with on this particular aspect, so in this way they are not relevant. Make sense? I hope through the Spirit it does...
so in conclusion, both sides are right... they can be relevant or irrelevant, depending on what we're discussing...
all right, this has opened the door on some other questions, that yes, I think need to be discussed and wrestled with in an honest, open way... I think that will help bring ownership to what we believe, instead of just getting spoon fed the traditional position, however right that might be.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
thanks Chad, for your thoughtful reply... if you and family are ever on the less sunny side of the cascades, up in Lynden area, would love to connect with ya'll =)...
I don't agree that some of our positions are as clear as we would like to think... that's why we have so many denominations with varying doctrines on baptism (infant, believer and baptism of the Holy Spirit) election and pre-destination (inclusivism/exclusivism), communion, (symbolic, transubstantiation, consubstantiation, etc), end times (a mill, pre mill, post trib, mid trib etc), because the diversity of doctrines tells me it is not clear, and the biblical support is sometimes stronger for another position. These have been debated over the ages, and we are still debating them with brothers and sisters in Christ. I have some concern for our positions, because of our history of cessationism... how did we get that one so wrong? This was a huge error. If we weren't intentionally listening to the Spirit historically or moving fully in the prophetic gifting for the prior several centuries, how much is our own thinking/understanding, and what was Spirit led? Even 40 years after the crc refuted cessationism, it seems we are still very cautious and skeptical of the gifts of the Spirit, of how God speaks to us through His Spirit, to lead and guide us daily in our walk with Him. I know there are reasons, but we it seems we close the door on it for a variety of reasons, instead of how do we walk in the prophetic gifting in a biblical way.
Now, because God is God, and a generous and gracious God and He loves us as part of His Bride, He has been leading us to some extent through the Spirit, but I can only shake my head with sadness at what we have missed because we have not been intentionally listening to Him through prayer, because we have not been walking in the prophetic gifting that the Spirit has given us (well that depends on one's definition of the prophetic gifting). Cessationism has caused us to significantly miss walking in the power of the Spirit, and instead primarily rely on our intellect.
and since you mentioned the Westminster, so when the Westminster confessions says in Ch 1.I regarding the Holy Scripture... "...those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]
" How do you understand, what ways have ceased? was the WC only referring to God inspiring more canon (which we all agree on), or was it referring to God speaking prophetically to us, for a specific time, place, people, etc. (which we don't agree on)? As I understand, this is part of how cessationism became part of our history...
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
again, not sure if this is the thread to discuss this, but these are questions behind the FOS and COB, i will keep wrestling, but part of that wrestling, is others sharing their insights and how they got to their position on whatever it is, that which is called a testimony =) so keep sharpening and sharing!!
and I'm not so sure, if we do have safety in questioning some deeply held positions when we don't end up at the same place as the confessions, especially if you are a pastor or spiritual leader.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
again, thx. =)... good sharpening... Yes, I agree the documents are foundational, and not complete, but that's what makes them relevant and irrelevant at the same time, depending on what we are discussing =)...
and now James Dekker thinks this is fun =), HAHAHA... and i'm sitting here with sweaty palms wondering what I got myself into =).. but that's mostly because I just read John Macarthurs views on the prophetic, which I struggle with his views because of his cessationist position (and the comments are nasty toward those who are open to the prophetic, basically saying you can't be part of the "true church" if you think God speaks to anyone other than through scripture) and that's not fun... anyway, it has been fun sharpening with you, thanks for being much more gracious than JMC... but I do have to run for now, and look forward to future discussions on cessationism, the prophetic, etc.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
so we discussed the prophetic a bit at the prayer gathering I was at tonight, and the book "convergence" by Sam Storms was mentioned, it's a book about the convergence of the charismatic and Calvinism ... BOQ...I appreciate the difficult task of trying to communicate to different worlds when you have one foot in both. As the author says, you open yourself up to being shot at from both directions EoQ.
I Hmmm, I can relate to that... oh what fun =)
http://www.amazon.com/Convergence-Spiritual-Journeys-Charismatic-Calvinist/product-reviews/0977173909/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
yep... ran into all of those!! plus some... makes one wonder why the enemy might be working so hard at keeping this gift of the Spirit from flourishing... I believe because it has incredible potential for the Kingdom, once we intentionally start operating in this gift in step with the Spirit... I'm working on a study of the "logos" and "rhema" word of God connected to the gift of prophecy...
Posted in: Silence Hides Violence
Bless your hearts Safe Church! thanks for your commitment to making our congregations more aware of these abuses and concerns.
would you consider re-posting this on the SOS page? I think it would be worthwhile adding Nancy's story to that section, if Nancy is Ok with that?
you are appreciated!
Bev Sterk
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Honestly, I think if we were more open to the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly biblical to include women in that gifting based on numerous passages, including Acts 2:17-18, that would be a huge boost for our denomination. From my perspective, we seem to be hesitant in gaining further understanding of what that prophetic gifting looks like and how to incorporate it into the structure and culture of our denomination (please let me know if I'm wrong and so maybe not aware of it as I only speak from my experience and knowledge via discussions, the banner, network, and other crc forums). Maybe there should be believers with prophetic gifting included at classis and other governing gatherings? just saying, I'm not seeing a place for this gift to be shared in our current structure, particularly if a woman has this gift.
Posted in: Prayer Summit Reflections
Beautiful and Amen! I think I'm going through withdrawal this week =)...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Ok, been following this thread since it started, all 90+ comments... I made one comment early on (April 14), but no one touched it and I'm baffled when it seems like such an obvious answer to me, so I'm very curious why (or so it seems) no one is interested in pursuing the prophetic gifting of the Holy Spirit.
I will state it again, using this phrase from one of Dawn's posts on 4.19.12 at 2:32 whatever time zone that might be..
BOQ...So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table. EOQ. EOQ
So, I mention the prophetic "table" again... Scripture (I Cor. 14:1-5,12) tells us we are to eagerly desire this gift, which I'm not seeing this in the crc to any extent (yet), and then that this gift is used primarily for strengthening, building up, edifying and encouraging the Church, the Bride of Christ. Acts 2/Joel 2 clearly states it is for male and female, sons and daughters, all flesh, young and old, I don't think anyone can argue that point.
It seems the prophetic table is an open door for women, but for whatever reason, we/crc are hesitant/resistant to walk through that door.
As was mentioned, we have bigger problems than women and classis, even though it is a significant and sensitive underlying one. We desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit, which has been significantly lacking for a variety of reasons in the crc (and it seems other denoms similar to crc). It will not matter if my voice as a woman is heard, when we are not hearing the Holy Spirit to any significant extent. The Holy Spirit's one "thought" given to His Church through the gift of prophecy can easily trump a thousand human thoughts.
Am I saying that we don't have the Holy Spirit? No, I'm saying we haven't been listening to Him very well.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Yes, I will further clarify, as I have found the prophetic gifting can cause a lot of misunderstandings, and so clear communications is very important... I understand that the Holy Spirit will not doing something new that's not in scripture or that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus. That is a primary test of whether a prophecy is from the Spirit or not. The Spirit will not contradict Scripture and the character of God.
The prophetic gifting is of course not dependent on a woman holding office, just like any other gift is not dependent on that.
e Paul VK's original question asked how can complementarian classis encourage women to use their gifts in classis?
When we recognize that you don't have to "hold office" to have the spiritual gift of prophecy, then women should be able to operate in this gift somehow for the edification of the church at a local level, and at a classis level and beyond?... I don't think the Holy Spirit will give women prophetic insight just regarding the kitchen and the children (I'm being a bit snarky here =). At this point in our structure, there is no official way for women in a complemantarian structure to share the prophetic insight they receive from the Holy Spirit. There is no table that they are welcome at in this way. Now, there are of course ways that these insights can be shared, but it is informal and lacking structure and often, very limited. I submit that we need to set a table, where women are invited and welcome to share and test what is being received from the Holy Spirit through the gift of prophecy in regards to the church, at whatever level, whether they hold office or not. Again, I see this gifting as an open door for women to be a part of building up the Church, whatever their "official" role in the church might be, whether the congregation/classis is complementarian or open to women in office.
I hope that helps clarify?
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Thanks Paul...
BOQ... The CRC, and most modern churches have done little work on prophesy, the gift or the office. It's a good thing to work on. EOQ pvk
that is my frustration, if the gift of prophecy (and possibly the office of prophet) is a key to building and edifying the Church (and I believe it is per I Cor. 14), and we/crc/modern church are so unfamiliar with it, then of course our congregations/denominations/the Church is going to be struggling. So why aren't we pursuing it more intentionally,with eagerness, instead of trying to use other "fix it" models.
I do plan on continuing study and training in this area, and have studied it to some extent, thanks to the charismatics, even though John McArthur, a cessationist, calls it "chaos"... that's why testing is so important... I John 4:1; I Thess. 5:19-21. Yes, it has to line up with scripture, that is the key test, but there often are other "confirmations" that God gives in addition to it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us... (Acts 15:28)
I know there is much confusion on this gifting, and our cessationist tradition has not helped. The interesting thing to me is that those who like to interpret prophecy as limited to preaching and teaching are often the same ones who say women cannot preach, but if prophecy is preaching, then Acts 2 would allow them to preach. I'm not saying that's my interpretation of prophecy, but it is an interesting contradiction, we can't say prophecy is preaching and then say women are not to prophesy/preach... it cannot be both. So that should tell us we need to get a better understanding of what prophecy is...
btw, congrats on having your thread be the most commented on the network now!! =)