I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...
it is enough, but barely, as one escaping through the flames and suffering great loss/regret at what they have missed (I Cor. 3:15). not saying I understand it since heaven is perfect, but the attitude of as long as I'm in heaven, that's all that matters, so I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by the grace of Jesus, will cause deep regret at some point...
So, I see the first conversion becoming Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then the other 2 as living out loving your neighbor as yourself. But having said that, I'm sure we can work on all the areas.
- our love relationship with God, the intimacy factor, our love for Jesus, as we are His Bride, that I find makes people uncomfortable. Song of Songs, was for many centuries seen as an allegory of God and Israel, Christ and His Bride, but as the rational - modern world view took precedence, it became viewed as simply a human love story. Now as we've moved into a post-modern view, maybe it's time to re-think this book of the Bible. I will admit, I haven't wrapped my head around it yet, other than chapter 8:6-7, and that was with help, but (spiritual) intimacy with Christ, that we are His Bride, and what that looks like, is one of the concepts I'm focusing on and asking God to help me better understand, whether that's with intellectual and/or experiential knowledge.
It seems to me we have been emphasizing the loving our neighbor (ie doing justice, being missional) over and above how to walk humbly with our God, how to love Him with all our being, the spiritual formation (the intimacy/emotional) aspect. I see this in the statistics of peoples prayer life, and how much time on average/day is spent in prayer, as well as several comments made to me about the biblical illiteracy in the church, as well as other statistics that show the prevalence of addictions such as porn in the church, and in choices we make of how we spend our resources, as well as a number of other indicators.
and that leads me to how much time/resources we spend on what's eternal and what's not, and probably most of us (including myself) can cut out some non-eternal activities, and replace them with more quiet time with the LORD, or more time in worship, or more of those good works He's prepared for us in advance.
amen John... Courageous shared a powerful and priceless message... One of the things that I believe (and agree with John) needs to be restored is the "family altar", that families make an intentional effort to gather together to pray, share and read and discuss scripture. I am not finding this going on at any significant level (via a variety of ways), so unfortunately, the 85% would seem to be fairly accurate from my experience and discussions. I believe Cheryl Saks (Prayer Saturated Church) is working on a book about this, and not sure if it's out yet or not. Many have the tools, just are not making the time in often already over-loaded and busy schedules. It is about our priorities.
Bless you Blain, what beauty from ashes... thanks for sharing your powerful journey & experiences of high praise, even though some of what you share is also very painful... I pray you will continue to find deep healing as you continue to seek God's face/heart in worship & prayer...
You are a precious & priceless child of the Most High God, you are a new creation in Christ & a temple of His Holy Spirit... may many more encounter God in these life changing ways, giving Him the glory & praise, as He is worthy...
His chesed/lovingkindness endures forever!!! He is abounding in Love & His love is higher than the heavens... may you sense His sweet shalom as you continue to grow & mature in your relationship with our Heavenly Father, abiding in Christ Jesus & in step with the Holy Spirit!
Love it! Those are very fun confirmations =). I just get a huge kick out of imagining how He divinely positioned and timed both of those "events" to coincide with your "needs" right then in an obvious way that there was no doubt it was God. I mean who goes around carrying a spare pie =) hahahaha.... and no one has ever offered salt to me! I'm still chuckling =)
Thank you so much for sharing. These testimonies help build our faith and encourage us to take whatever the next step of faith might be! It is freeing to know that the God of the universe cares whether we have salt and a pie or not =)... ah, He knows every hair of our head, goes before us and behind us- yes, so freeing... Thank You LORD! We don't understand it, but He works in sync with our free will when we choose to be obedient to what He's putting on our hearts. Janet, bless your heart, for being obedient. May you continue to grow closer to Him and experience (and testify of) His goodness multiplied times over as you walk in step with Him!
Great question, definitely worthy of lots of contemplation and discussion... thanks Rich, for taking the time to share your thoughts. I too waited a few days to ponder it before sharing... I have lots of thoughts, but will try to limit it =)... and sometimes I cringe at sharing this via computer, vs. face to face... I would so much rather have this discussion in person! to get your feedback, your sharpening... but I'll be content that at least we can discuss it in this format to some extent. So, test, test, test... Don't let me get away with anything that does not line up with His Word!
I think this concept of the Spirit given life in worship is one of the reasons many (particularly of the younger generation) left the crc, even though they couldn't articulate what it was that was "missing", but they found more of that Spirit "life" in other worship services. Now, I'm not saying the Spirit is not in the crc worship at all and that we don't have much "life", but we do have some "residue" in our history of not being real open to Him (think cessationism), as the 3rd person of the Trinity. We're great on the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin, leading us to salvation, and maybe illumination of scripture, but some of the other areas, we've been somewhat resistant to Him (the degree and reasons are debatable). CRC forbid (literally) that we might have experienced the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as a 2nd blessing apart from our conversion. This is an entire discussion in itself. But when we (the CrC), state as a position, that basically anyone who has experienced this as a 2nd blessing, is disqualified from office, then we had better be very sure that the Holy Spirit never does that. Because if He does, even if it's rare (Acts 19), then we could be seriously quenching and mis representing Him. I have read and re-read Gordon Fee's position (Gospel and Spirit; Issues in NT Hermeneutics; 1991; Chapter 7, p105-119) on this several times, which does not agree with our official position per the crc website. http://www.crcna.org/pages/positions_pentecostalism.cfm
I think we/crc have to be very careful in saying that He doesn't ever do that! Because if He does, and we say He doesn't... not good!
Ok, but Joy's asking about worship. Well, when we "quench" and resist Him in other areas, why should we expect that He will "show" up for worship? He often does, because He is loving and gracious and generous and He is God, and it's for His glory and our good. I have seen Him "show up" for those who are truly seeking God. They're not looking for a show or some manifestation (there are those who only want to see the signs and wonders - Matt.12:39), but some are truly seeking God! On the flip side you have unbelief which limits (Matt. 17:17, 13:58), even within the Church.
One of the NIV translations I struggle with is Psalm 22:3. Many other versions state that He inhabits/enthroned in the praises of Israel (His people). This concept might alter how we view our worship of Him! Not saying the NIV's is wrong, but maybe there is another level to this that we're missing, as the original text is unclear how to separate the thoughts.
Going over Joy's questions:
Q 1 Isn’t the Holy Spirit the source of life and the one who shapes our hearts and minds for worship? If this same Spirit abides in us and in our churches, why does the “life” of worship seem to ebb and flow? Is it the Spirit’s fault?
part 1 - The Holy Spirit gives life (John 6:63) so yes.... and He helps us worship in Spirit AND Truth.
part 2 - I think we can quench/resist Him for many reasons, not be in tune with Him, however you want to phrase it... one concept the LORD has put on my heart is about giving Him our highest praise (Psalm 149:6 NKJV - and I'm baffled at why the word "high"/rowmemah is not in the NIV here). Unfortunately, it seems like sometimes our high praise is reserved for our favorite sports team instead. Not saying worship always has to be loud, but there are times it should be (Ezra 3:13, Ps. 100; 47:1, and many more =) When's the last time everyone shouted in a crc worship service? have to confess, I've only done this at charismatic type gatherings.
part 3 - is it the Spirit's fault? Of course not, If He's not "showing" up, then it has to do with us and our hearts (and our spiritual "ears"), and possibly a season of testing (dark night of the soul idea) which would be rare and more individual than an entire congregation experiencing this.
Q2 Is it the worship planner who selected the ‘wrong songs’ –too wordy, too old, too new, too simple, too schmaltzy, too intellectual, etc. . . . ?
possibly, if they are only picking songs based on what they like, instead of asking the Holy Spirit to guide them with which songs to select. In my personal worship experience, the genre, age, style, language of the music has never limited the Holy Spirit if He so chooses to minister to me that way, that day. He can use any song, from any time, secular or Christian. He can use simple vocalizing (no words) to melt me sometimes. He has used songs in Hebrew to melt me. He has used songs 1000+ years old, and songs only days old, and sometimes even minutes old, being "made" up even as they are being sung. I made the "mistake" one time of wanting to skip an Avalon concert, and thinking that I preferred the speaking (this was at a women of faith conference). God let me keep my bad attitude about music for less than 1 minute after the music began, and I became a sobbing puddle, the entire concert. No time for "whipped up" emotionalism. He melted me almost immediately. What the LORD impressed on me, was "don't limit Me, I can use anything anywhere to minister to you." Now, were the people beside me a sobbing mess. Nope, just me! It was so powerful, that every time I heard one of their songs up to a year later, I would instantly have tears. That's the power and life of the Spirit.
Q3 Is it the musicians’ fault? Good music was selected but it was played without life.
possibly... if they are playing for performance, instead of worship... I have heard music that is out of tune, or with mistakes, but the Holy Spirit was present in their worship, and that "offering" led me to higher, more intimate worship, then the most gifted musician has done.
Q4 Is it the preacher’s fault? Would one more cup of coffee have done the trick that morning?
Not going there =) !
Q5Q q qQ5 Is it the congregation’s fault? All the leaders have done all they can, but the people come without the heart to worship and it just falls flat.
Could be... but when I experience the Spirit in worship, I find that others might not have, and usually not in the same way. Honestly, when I think about when I don't experience "life" from the Spirit in worship, it's when I'm primarily operating in the flesh and the intellect (my own understanding (Prov 3).
Ok, i know this isn't the norm, but a year or two ago, i had a dream, in it, there were three groups of people, those with earplugs, those with tubes in their ears (like for ear infections), and those with ear wax/gunk. I've been studying listening prayer for several years, and what this represented was 3 groups of people who could not hear the voice of the Spirit well. The first group purposely plugged their ears because they did not want to hear the Spirit "speak" to them, some preferred their own intellect, some out of fear, some wanted "control", or whatever reason they chose. The 2nd group was those who had been damaged/hurt by "words" given to them that were wrong, or inappropriately shared, and so could not hear the Spirit's Voice well because of past injury, and the 3rd group were those who had heard lies (gunk) about listening to the Spirit, ie, like He doesn't do that anymore, or only special people like pastors are the only ones He speaks to. in the dream, the LORD was healing and cleaning the "ears" of the 2nd 2 groups, but only occasionally would He pull out the "intentional" earplugs, He generally left that up to those who put them in the first place. They had to choose to take them out. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone, and again, I know dreams aren't our "usual" type of crc conversation, but I share this because I think it's a picture of how we have been unable to hear His "voice" very well, for whatever reasons, which I think has limited us to some extent to experiencing His life giving Spirit through worship. Test this, particularly keeping John 10 in mind.
I will testify, listening prayer, changed my faith walk and my worship from duty to delight. I sense the Spirit in worship far more often, and far more powerfully, then i ever did "before", when worship was primarily intellect.
Yes, the Spirit gives life, we need to be more in tune with Him, open to His leading and guidance. Ok, the Holy Spirit and listening prayer is a huge subject, but I think "listening" is part of the answer. so again, please test! That's how sharpening happens!
Thanks Rich, for your thoughtful and insightful reply. I know you have been involved with Dunamis/PRMI, and so grateful for your testimony of your walk with the Spirit and your "research" into the crc positions. I love how it when the "body" works together, we each have different insight/perspectives, and then sharpening, reminding and growing through sharing with each other. i think that is part of the "prophetic" picture, as we share what God is putting on our hearts together.
I will be up front in stating that I want to honor our denomination, and i don't "blame" anyone for what we have "missed", the "major oversights". I am sensing increased intensity about seeing us/crc move forward in walking with the Spirit, that we will "experience" the full, abundant life in Christ Jesus, and I'm sure there are many more who are sensing this as well.
Again, I would love to have this discussion face to fact to clear up some things, and so we don't have misunderstandings.
In regards to the "2nd blessing", it seems like some of this is semantics and terminology, our understanding of it. So it sounds like what we/crc mean by 2nd blessing, is different than what others might consider the "2nd blessing". I think this is a significant part of the problem, not just with this "phrase" but others as well. We need to be very clear when we say what we consider the "2nd blessing" to be, when it is understood in other denominations as something different. This is where the confusion and misunderstandings occur, which cause division between brothers and sisters in Christ. Again, this is an entire discussion, that needs to take place at some point . Rich, do you have where I can find the info on the crc's understanding of the "2nd blessing" as used in the holiness tradition? Is it related to their requirement of speaking/praying in tongues as evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I have read both the 73 and 09 reports on pentecostalism, and so am aware and extremely grateful, that we refuted cessationism in '73. PRAISE GOD!!! that was a wonderful discovery when I read that a few years ago. As you said, we have refuted it theologically, however I wonder about practically for quite a few reasons. As you mentioned, we have "nervously" opened the door on the gift of prophecy. So that would be a discussion. We have come a long ways, and still have a ways to go.
This gets back to the question and one of your points of are we practically walking in the power of the Spirit, the empowerment for ministry? I agree, this is an area that is not significantly addressed in our creeds and confessions. As I shared in my first post, we are good with the Spirit convicting us of sin, bringing us to salvation, and illumination of scripture (aka transformation and sanctification per your post), but there are other areas, such as the empowerment for ministry, listening prayer, prophetic gifting, etc. that we have mostly missed or a "major oversight" as you stated. These areas are where I feel the "residue" of cessationism is still evident, even though it was refuted theologically by the crc almost 40 years ago.
I agree, the reformed community is a theologically safe place to explore the fullness of the Spirit. But sometimes there is also fear, as well as some other "blocks". That's why I say, "test, test, test" =). Discuss and sharpen!
As for worship services, I agree, "it" doesn't start and end with the worship event. Some significant portion of the "Life" in worship is the growth/overflow/fruit of our relationship with Him throughout the week. Abiding in Him, listening and obeying His leading, being in His Word, spending time in the "secret place" with Him, keeping our eyes and thoughts fixed on Him, being sensitive to the Spirit.
So as to your last paragraph... I put "show up" in quotes in my post, because I know this is a theological mystery to us (see prev. post comment on Ps. 22:3) where we don't understand if it's our awareness (ie open the eyes of our hearts to know Him more), and how it is that the life of the Spirit "ebbs and flows" in worship as Joy is asking. So we "experience" different "levels" of the Life of the Spirit. Why? Scripture says we can "quench" and "resist" the Spirit. So, is it all about our awareness of Him, and our willingness to "dance" with Him? This raises the question of the revivals, and where 100's/thousands where "slain in the Spirit", unconscious, etc. There was a "level" of the Spirit present, that we're not "experiencing". This goes back to one of your posts, Rich, I think it was on the reformed charismatic thread, about the Spirit being in and on. He is always in us as believers, but there are times when we have a greater "anointing" than others, when He comes on us with greater power than other times.
So Rich, I look forward to your thoughts, and anyone else's too! I believe this is a "subject" dear to your heart, as it is to mine =).
ps. when I use quotes, it's because those are terms I'm using, that might need further discussion, as they have caused confusion and misunderstandings in how people "read" them, based on their understanding or experience, similar to the "2nd blessing" and "baptism of the Holy Spirit"
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
whew... glad that helped..
Those are good questions that we would need to work through.
I'm not looking for a "table" that's all women, I'm looking for a "table" that includes women along with men, and no it doesn't matter whether the "insight" is received by male or female, but recognizing that women do receive prophetic insight, and when these insights are not included, pieces of the "puzzle" will be missing.. I'm suggesting a prophetic table... one where believers (male and female) that are open to the leading and prompting of the Spirit through "listening" prayer, one where there will be a time of quiet reflection together, one where there will be a time of sharing what God is putting on their heart for whatever purpose is at hand, and one where there is testing/sharpening of the "insight" shared. I have my own experiences with this with family and personal situations, but they are very limited in an expanded group setting for a variety of reasons. I will share that what the Holy Spirit reveals through these times of "listening" is powerful and profound. I believe when we "practice" this at a group level, there will be profound insight given on behalf of the church. It often takes a group to operate in the prophetic per I Cor 14:29-33 (please compare NIV and NKJV on v33). When we operate individually, it's often not complete, because we are just given one piece. God's heart is for us to work together, that we need each other to get the bigger picture.
the prophetic insights are not canon, as the revealed insight will not be universal, but instead for a specific time, place, group... with specific guidance for a specific situation. If you ever have the chance to pick up any of Loren Cunningham's (YWAM founder) books, I would encourage anyone to read these. He shares many testimonies of "listening" prayer for guidance with YWAM. and times where they messed up... we will make mistakes (or hopefully we can learn from his =)...
Do we need to add the office of "prophet"? Somewhere we (reformed) say that all believers are "prophets, priests and kings".. however, at this point, I'm just trying to get the prophetic gifting to be intentionally incorporated into our structure. to raise awareness that this gifting is significantly lacking in our denomination, and now how to move forward intentionally incorporating "listening" to the Holy Spirit in how we "run" the church.
Again, if something is not clear, let me know, because as PVK said, we have not done a lot of work in this area...
Posted in: Is Conversion to Jesus Enough?
it is enough, but barely, as one escaping through the flames and suffering great loss/regret at what they have missed (I Cor. 3:15). not saying I understand it since heaven is perfect, but the attitude of as long as I'm in heaven, that's all that matters, so I can do whatever I want because I'm covered by the grace of Jesus, will cause deep regret at some point...
So, I see the first conversion becoming Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then the other 2 as living out loving your neighbor as yourself. But having said that, I'm sure we can work on all the areas.
- our love relationship with God, the intimacy factor, our love for Jesus, as we are His Bride, that I find makes people uncomfortable. Song of Songs, was for many centuries seen as an allegory of God and Israel, Christ and His Bride, but as the rational - modern world view took precedence, it became viewed as simply a human love story. Now as we've moved into a post-modern view, maybe it's time to re-think this book of the Bible. I will admit, I haven't wrapped my head around it yet, other than chapter 8:6-7, and that was with help, but (spiritual) intimacy with Christ, that we are His Bride, and what that looks like, is one of the concepts I'm focusing on and asking God to help me better understand, whether that's with intellectual and/or experiential knowledge.
It seems to me we have been emphasizing the loving our neighbor (ie doing justice, being missional) over and above how to walk humbly with our God, how to love Him with all our being, the spiritual formation (the intimacy/emotional) aspect. I see this in the statistics of peoples prayer life, and how much time on average/day is spent in prayer, as well as several comments made to me about the biblical illiteracy in the church, as well as other statistics that show the prevalence of addictions such as porn in the church, and in choices we make of how we spend our resources, as well as a number of other indicators.
and that leads me to how much time/resources we spend on what's eternal and what's not, and probably most of us (including myself) can cut out some non-eternal activities, and replace them with more quiet time with the LORD, or more time in worship, or more of those good works He's prepared for us in advance.
so that's my perspective from the pew =)
Posted in: Family Faith Talk
amen John... Courageous shared a powerful and priceless message... One of the things that I believe (and agree with John) needs to be restored is the "family altar", that families make an intentional effort to gather together to pray, share and read and discuss scripture. I am not finding this going on at any significant level (via a variety of ways), so unfortunately, the 85% would seem to be fairly accurate from my experience and discussions. I believe Cheryl Saks (Prayer Saturated Church) is working on a book about this, and not sure if it's out yet or not. Many have the tools, just are not making the time in often already over-loaded and busy schedules. It is about our priorities.
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
Thanks for your encouragement David! You are a blessing!
PRAISE THE LORD, HIS LOVE ENDURES FOREVER!
also, thanks for the confirmation on cultivating God's Presence... I've been reading this lately...
The Presence: Experiencing More of God: Rowlands, Alec, Cymbala, Jim: 9781414387246: Amazon.com: Books
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
read through your posts on Christian chat, very sweet and encouraging. Thank you for sharing what Holy Spirit is helping you learn!
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
love this high praise!!!
(364) Release the Sound - IBC Live - Indiana Bible College - YouTube
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
Bless you Blain, what beauty from ashes... thanks for sharing your powerful journey & experiences of high praise, even though some of what you share is also very painful... I pray you will continue to find deep healing as you continue to seek God's face/heart in worship & prayer...
You are a precious & priceless child of the Most High God, you are a new creation in Christ & a temple of His Holy Spirit... may many more encounter God in these life changing ways, giving Him the glory & praise, as He is worthy...
His chesed/lovingkindness endures forever!!! He is abounding in Love & His love is higher than the heavens... may you sense His sweet shalom as you continue to grow & mature in your relationship with our Heavenly Father, abiding in Christ Jesus & in step with the Holy Spirit!
Your sister in Christ,
Bev Sterk
Posted in: An Anthem for Black Friday
Love it! Those are very fun confirmations =). I just get a huge kick out of imagining how He divinely positioned and timed both of those "events" to coincide with your "needs" right then in an obvious way that there was no doubt it was God. I mean who goes around carrying a spare pie =) hahahaha.... and no one has ever offered salt to me! I'm still chuckling =)
Thank you so much for sharing. These testimonies help build our faith and encourage us to take whatever the next step of faith might be! It is freeing to know that the God of the universe cares whether we have salt and a pie or not =)... ah, He knows every hair of our head, goes before us and behind us- yes, so freeing... Thank You LORD! We don't understand it, but He works in sync with our free will when we choose to be obedient to what He's putting on our hearts. Janet, bless your heart, for being obedient. May you continue to grow closer to Him and experience (and testify of) His goodness multiplied times over as you walk in step with Him!
Posted in: Where Does the Life Come From?
Great question, definitely worthy of lots of contemplation and discussion... thanks Rich, for taking the time to share your thoughts. I too waited a few days to ponder it before sharing... I have lots of thoughts, but will try to limit it =)... and sometimes I cringe at sharing this via computer, vs. face to face... I would so much rather have this discussion in person! to get your feedback, your sharpening... but I'll be content that at least we can discuss it in this format to some extent. So, test, test, test... Don't let me get away with anything that does not line up with His Word!
I think this concept of the Spirit given life in worship is one of the reasons many (particularly of the younger generation) left the crc, even though they couldn't articulate what it was that was "missing", but they found more of that Spirit "life" in other worship services. Now, I'm not saying the Spirit is not in the crc worship at all and that we don't have much "life", but we do have some "residue" in our history of not being real open to Him (think cessationism), as the 3rd person of the Trinity. We're great on the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin, leading us to salvation, and maybe illumination of scripture, but some of the other areas, we've been somewhat resistant to Him (the degree and reasons are debatable). CRC forbid (literally) that we might have experienced the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as a 2nd blessing apart from our conversion. This is an entire discussion in itself. But when we (the CrC), state as a position, that basically anyone who has experienced this as a 2nd blessing, is disqualified from office, then we had better be very sure that the Holy Spirit never does that. Because if He does, even if it's rare (Acts 19), then we could be seriously quenching and mis representing Him. I have read and re-read Gordon Fee's position (Gospel and Spirit; Issues in NT Hermeneutics; 1991; Chapter 7, p105-119) on this several times, which does not agree with our official position per the crc website. http://www.crcna.org/pages/positions_pentecostalism.cfm
I think we/crc have to be very careful in saying that He doesn't ever do that! Because if He does, and we say He doesn't... not good!
Ok, but Joy's asking about worship. Well, when we "quench" and resist Him in other areas, why should we expect that He will "show" up for worship? He often does, because He is loving and gracious and generous and He is God, and it's for His glory and our good. I have seen Him "show up" for those who are truly seeking God. They're not looking for a show or some manifestation (there are those who only want to see the signs and wonders - Matt.12:39), but some are truly seeking God! On the flip side you have unbelief which limits (Matt. 17:17, 13:58), even within the Church.
One of the NIV translations I struggle with is Psalm 22:3. Many other versions state that He inhabits/enthroned in the praises of Israel (His people). This concept might alter how we view our worship of Him! Not saying the NIV's is wrong, but maybe there is another level to this that we're missing, as the original text is unclear how to separate the thoughts.
Going over Joy's questions:
Q 1 Isn’t the Holy Spirit the source of life and the one who shapes our hearts and minds for worship? If this same Spirit abides in us and in our churches, why does the “life” of worship seem to ebb and flow? Is it the Spirit’s fault?
part 1 - The Holy Spirit gives life (John 6:63) so yes.... and He helps us worship in Spirit AND Truth.
part 2 - I think we can quench/resist Him for many reasons, not be in tune with Him, however you want to phrase it... one concept the LORD has put on my heart is about giving Him our highest praise (Psalm 149:6 NKJV - and I'm baffled at why the word "high"/rowmemah is not in the NIV here). Unfortunately, it seems like sometimes our high praise is reserved for our favorite sports team instead. Not saying worship always has to be loud, but there are times it should be (Ezra 3:13, Ps. 100; 47:1, and many more =) When's the last time everyone shouted in a crc worship service? have to confess, I've only done this at charismatic type gatherings.
part 3 - is it the Spirit's fault? Of course not, If He's not "showing" up, then it has to do with us and our hearts (and our spiritual "ears"), and possibly a season of testing (dark night of the soul idea) which would be rare and more individual than an entire congregation experiencing this.
Q2 Is it the worship planner who selected the ‘wrong songs’ –too wordy, too old, too new, too simple, too schmaltzy, too intellectual, etc. . . . ?
possibly, if they are only picking songs based on what they like, instead of asking the Holy Spirit to guide them with which songs to select. In my personal worship experience, the genre, age, style, language of the music has never limited the Holy Spirit if He so chooses to minister to me that way, that day. He can use any song, from any time, secular or Christian. He can use simple vocalizing (no words) to melt me sometimes. He has used songs in Hebrew to melt me. He has used songs 1000+ years old, and songs only days old, and sometimes even minutes old, being "made" up even as they are being sung. I made the "mistake" one time of wanting to skip an Avalon concert, and thinking that I preferred the speaking (this was at a women of faith conference). God let me keep my bad attitude about music for less than 1 minute after the music began, and I became a sobbing puddle, the entire concert. No time for "whipped up" emotionalism. He melted me almost immediately. What the LORD impressed on me, was "don't limit Me, I can use anything anywhere to minister to you." Now, were the people beside me a sobbing mess. Nope, just me! It was so powerful, that every time I heard one of their songs up to a year later, I would instantly have tears. That's the power and life of the Spirit.
possibly... if they are playing for performance, instead of worship... I have heard music that is out of tune, or with mistakes, but the Holy Spirit was present in their worship, and that "offering" led me to higher, more intimate worship, then the most gifted musician has done.
Not going there =) !
Could be... but when I experience the Spirit in worship, I find that others might not have, and usually not in the same way. Honestly, when I think about when I don't experience "life" from the Spirit in worship, it's when I'm primarily operating in the flesh and the intellect (my own understanding (Prov 3).
Ok, i know this isn't the norm, but a year or two ago, i had a dream, in it, there were three groups of people, those with earplugs, those with tubes in their ears (like for ear infections), and those with ear wax/gunk. I've been studying listening prayer for several years, and what this represented was 3 groups of people who could not hear the voice of the Spirit well. The first group purposely plugged their ears because they did not want to hear the Spirit "speak" to them, some preferred their own intellect, some out of fear, some wanted "control", or whatever reason they chose. The 2nd group was those who had been damaged/hurt by "words" given to them that were wrong, or inappropriately shared, and so could not hear the Spirit's Voice well because of past injury, and the 3rd group were those who had heard lies (gunk) about listening to the Spirit, ie, like He doesn't do that anymore, or only special people like pastors are the only ones He speaks to. in the dream, the LORD was healing and cleaning the "ears" of the 2nd 2 groups, but only occasionally would He pull out the "intentional" earplugs, He generally left that up to those who put them in the first place. They had to choose to take them out. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone, and again, I know dreams aren't our "usual" type of crc conversation, but I share this because I think it's a picture of how we have been unable to hear His "voice" very well, for whatever reasons, which I think has limited us to some extent to experiencing His life giving Spirit through worship. Test this, particularly keeping John 10 in mind.
I will testify, listening prayer, changed my faith walk and my worship from duty to delight. I sense the Spirit in worship far more often, and far more powerfully, then i ever did "before", when worship was primarily intellect.
Yes, the Spirit gives life, we need to be more in tune with Him, open to His leading and guidance. Ok, the Holy Spirit and listening prayer is a huge subject, but I think "listening" is part of the answer. so again, please test! That's how sharpening happens!
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
bless your heart Heidi... Beautiful, precious... thanks for sharing! there are so many psalms that include shouting as praise to God...
I've been praying for a fresh flow of the Spirit... your testimony is very encouraging! Thank You Lord!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMbTy1FpKuo
Posted in: What Exactly is High Praise?
Thanks for sharing this Blain... listening to it now!
(317) Phillips, Craig & Dean - My Praise - YouTube
Posted in: Where Does the Life Come From?
Thanks Rich, for your thoughtful and insightful reply. I know you have been involved with Dunamis/PRMI, and so grateful for your testimony of your walk with the Spirit and your "research" into the crc positions. I love how it when the "body" works together, we each have different insight/perspectives, and then sharpening, reminding and growing through sharing with each other. i think that is part of the "prophetic" picture, as we share what God is putting on our hearts together.
I will be up front in stating that I want to honor our denomination, and i don't "blame" anyone for what we have "missed", the "major oversights". I am sensing increased intensity about seeing us/crc move forward in walking with the Spirit, that we will "experience" the full, abundant life in Christ Jesus, and I'm sure there are many more who are sensing this as well.
Again, I would love to have this discussion face to fact to clear up some things, and so we don't have misunderstandings.
In regards to the "2nd blessing", it seems like some of this is semantics and terminology, our understanding of it. So it sounds like what we/crc mean by 2nd blessing, is different than what others might consider the "2nd blessing". I think this is a significant part of the problem, not just with this "phrase" but others as well. We need to be very clear when we say what we consider the "2nd blessing" to be, when it is understood in other denominations as something different. This is where the confusion and misunderstandings occur, which cause division between brothers and sisters in Christ. Again, this is an entire discussion, that needs to take place at some point . Rich, do you have where I can find the info on the crc's understanding of the "2nd blessing" as used in the holiness tradition? Is it related to their requirement of speaking/praying in tongues as evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I have read both the 73 and 09 reports on pentecostalism, and so am aware and extremely grateful, that we refuted cessationism in '73. PRAISE GOD!!! that was a wonderful discovery when I read that a few years ago. As you said, we have refuted it theologically, however I wonder about practically for quite a few reasons. As you mentioned, we have "nervously" opened the door on the gift of prophecy. So that would be a discussion. We have come a long ways, and still have a ways to go.
This gets back to the question and one of your points of are we practically walking in the power of the Spirit, the empowerment for ministry? I agree, this is an area that is not significantly addressed in our creeds and confessions. As I shared in my first post, we are good with the Spirit convicting us of sin, bringing us to salvation, and illumination of scripture (aka transformation and sanctification per your post), but there are other areas, such as the empowerment for ministry, listening prayer, prophetic gifting, etc. that we have mostly missed or a "major oversight" as you stated. These areas are where I feel the "residue" of cessationism is still evident, even though it was refuted theologically by the crc almost 40 years ago.
I agree, the reformed community is a theologically safe place to explore the fullness of the Spirit. But sometimes there is also fear, as well as some other "blocks". That's why I say, "test, test, test" =). Discuss and sharpen!
As for worship services, I agree, "it" doesn't start and end with the worship event. Some significant portion of the "Life" in worship is the growth/overflow/fruit of our relationship with Him throughout the week. Abiding in Him, listening and obeying His leading, being in His Word, spending time in the "secret place" with Him, keeping our eyes and thoughts fixed on Him, being sensitive to the Spirit.
So as to your last paragraph... I put "show up" in quotes in my post, because I know this is a theological mystery to us (see prev. post comment on Ps. 22:3) where we don't understand if it's our awareness (ie open the eyes of our hearts to know Him more), and how it is that the life of the Spirit "ebbs and flows" in worship as Joy is asking. So we "experience" different "levels" of the Life of the Spirit. Why? Scripture says we can "quench" and "resist" the Spirit. So, is it all about our awareness of Him, and our willingness to "dance" with Him? This raises the question of the revivals, and where 100's/thousands where "slain in the Spirit", unconscious, etc. There was a "level" of the Spirit present, that we're not "experiencing". This goes back to one of your posts, Rich, I think it was on the reformed charismatic thread, about the Spirit being in and on. He is always in us as believers, but there are times when we have a greater "anointing" than others, when He comes on us with greater power than other times.
So Rich, I look forward to your thoughts, and anyone else's too! I believe this is a "subject" dear to your heart, as it is to mine =).
ps. when I use quotes, it's because those are terms I'm using, that might need further discussion, as they have caused confusion and misunderstandings in how people "read" them, based on their understanding or experience, similar to the "2nd blessing" and "baptism of the Holy Spirit"