I am responding because you invited me to. You posed the question. I am trying to answer it. I don't waste time responding to all objections. I just concentrate on ones pretending to be completely scientific and rational as well as claiming to be faithful to the Bible. I find many of these voices repeatedly bear false witness, encourage division in the Christian community, and seem to misunderstand the nature of science. (Incidently, I also invest time and energy in refutions of claims like those of Dawkins. However it's American fundamentalism that's making this more difficult, not the other way around)
Allow me, then, to use Helder as an example of how NOT to respond to "secular science". The first brief installment is just about ready. Then you can have at 'er.
As long as this church sponsored forum continues to publically promote YEC propaganda, fudge the basic principles and conclusions of modern science, and bear false witness against those who hold them, I will post rebuttal evidence. At least as long as the moderators allow me. :) According to the Heidelberg Catechism teaching on how to honour the 9th commandment, this is my duty before God and my neighbour.
((John.. this is not about you... I am deliberately staying away from making this about you...if you would actually READ what Michael Roberts wrote, especially about the present controveries concerning Young Earth "science", you would see that this is one of the conclusions (among others) he has drawn after looking at YEC behaviours. I have drawn the same conclusions concerning bearing false witness, either by commission or by omission, among many in the YEC camp. It seems many don't realize the impact this is having on our global witness.
I think I'm entitled to my own conclusions as to what is useful and what is not. I think any reader of this thread is also entitled to their conclusions as to what is useful in this discussion. I promise not to make this subject a personal attack on you, John. Lead me not into temptation.. ))
I point to Joel Phillips' reflections in December issue of the Banner as an example of how Y.E.C. fear-mongering and polarization have put undue pressure on our brightest young minds. I appreciate Phillip's inclusiveness but this pressure will continue to grow until he has been labelled a "compromiser" or worse.
Perhaps he would be well-served by reading a publication such as Evangelicals and Science by Michael Roberts. It's part of the Greenwood Series and you can read the entire publication with references online. I found it a very helpful elucidation of the issues involved. Take heart Joel! Here's the link:
I will quote a paragraph on the top of page 179 because it points to one of the conclusions that I personally have come to believe in my own research on the topic:
"Because of this misrepresentation many critics of YEC have naively assumed that if it were exposed, then proponents of YEC would simply be forced to change. That has not been the case as the arguments are rarely corrected. One is faced with a paradox. Here are a group of Christians who are emphatic that they stand for family values and the Ten Commandments, who in their writings habitually misquote. Abortion, adultery, and homosexuality are out, yet critics assert that they break the Ninth Commandment (thou shalt not bear false witness). This is incongruous. I speak both of proponents and followers. No one seems to have made sense of this and questions are asked whether YECs activists are deliberately dishonest or simply deluded. Yet they often seem very sane, balanced, and upright people. I offer no answer."
My first installment of critiquing Helder's will be ready by the weekend. Monday at the latest.So far it's been a helpful exercise and a great way to get into the nuts and bolts of the controversy. But today I'm going fishing. Like almost every other day. As for Safarti...http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1641/0006-3568%282003%29053%5B0282%3AACAC%5D2.0.CO%3B2
Not sure if I want to read the same sorts of thing over and over again. See if you can catch what Scott and Branch say about Safarti's MO -- he agrees with the arguments of two evolutionists disagreeing with each other and uses this as evidence that evolution is wrong. If it's true, it's "parasitic science" indeed.
John ... If you would like some balance to your reading, or you would like a good example of the "damage" I see to our faith community BECAUSE of fundamentalist attacks on science, see http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
As Michael Roberts pointed out, the influence of fundamentalism in developing nations evidenced in South America, Africa and Asia spells trouble for the future of global scientific endeavours. Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is an increasingly popular belief in this burgeoning segment of Christianity as it distinguishes its legacy from a waning western/scientific intellectual legacy. Catholic and Muslim communities in the southern hemisphere are also marshalling themselves against the influences of Darwin and Einstein, for the same purpose and often with identical tactics and hermeneutics.
I, for one, don’t want to be part of any effort to lead my brothers and sisters astray. It is certain that as much as they believed they have honoured God’s Word they will one day realize they have been hoodwinked.
“We don’t subscribe to this idea of the ‘God of gaps,’ meaning if you can’t explain something, then blame God,” Whitmore told me before describing a method that hardly seemed more scientific. “Instead, we think: ‘Here’s what the Bible says. Now let’s go to the rocks and see if we find the evidence for it.’ ”
Dr. Margaret J. Helder's paper entitled "How Christians Respond to Secular Science" (March, 2012; www.frcna.org) is a good example of how not to respond to secular science. She is a fellow Canadian, a botanist, vice-president of the Creation Science Association of Alberta, associate editor of science and technology for Reformed Perspective, a writer, and a mother of six. She has expertise in areas I admire and I have no reason to doubt she is a woman of faith in Jesus Christ. She is also a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) with whom I respectfully disagree.
Dr. Helder begins her paper with a section entitled "Setting the Stage." She tells us about the irony of a sign featuring the words of Job 12:8 which at one time adorned the Royal Tyrrell Museum in Drumheller, Alberta. Helder correctly points out that the verse "Speak to the earth, and let it teach you" is directly followed in the Bible by "who knows not in all these that the hand of the Lord has wrought this?"
"The message of Scripture is unequivocal, that God is the creator of all things. Scripture does not sanction the idea of time and chance as agents of creation as the sign in the museum implied. Neither however does nature point to random processes as the creative agent. The sign in the Royal Tyrrell Museum therefore was wrong on two counts...Once Christians recognize that secular accounts of origins are contrary to Scripture, then they must devise strategies to deal with, and respond to the popular interpretations." (p.1, paragraph 2-3)
I appreciate Helder's concern for accuracy and making sure things are not taken out of context, at least when it comes to quoting the Bible. Yet in her very first two paragraphs Dr. Helder has already misrepresented the position of evolution (presumably, the museum's perspective) no less thanthree times -- "the idea that random processes...brought about all things"..."the idea of time and chance as agents of creation"..."nature point(s) to random processes".
Every secular scientist would immediately recognize her initial descriptions of evolutionary theory are inaccurate, misleading, and in many ways the opposite of what evolutionary theory explains. Charles Darwin was not a nihilist. If Helder wants to reprimand the Royal Tyrrell for quote-mining and misrepresenting the Bible, she might also want to show good faith by accurately defining evolution theory from the start. At least in taking down the sign the museum avoided the additional charge of hypocrisy. Unfortunately Dr. Helder impales herself on it.
What follows these two paragraphs is a "Gish Gallop" avalanche of references -- creationist book titles, names of prominent YEC scientists and debaters, and a smattering of journal articles -- all apparently showing that creation science, especially in the last 30 years, has shaken the present scientific establishment to its core.
Her bravado is unbridled: Creationists "generally win such debates". People are getting saved. Scientists are changing their minds. Most importantly, "children in the classroom and at home, were provided with quality creationist resources" and "for brief periods, the message of evolution was muted." According to Helder, creationism has put evolution "on the defensive." The pressure it brought to bear on the scientific establishment "may even have been a factor contributing to certain recent revisions in evolution theory. (p. 2, par.1, emphasis is mine -- citing a good example would have been nice).
Yet even after one day of researching these references, it is obvious that Helder's bravado is groundless. In fact, in the last thirty years, evidence for evolutionary theory has (by several orders of magnitude) far outstripped any positive accumulations put forward by creation science. A few YECs are humble enough to admit this (like Todd Wood, the DNA researcher whom Helder quotes in this paper-- cf. toddcwood.blogspot.ca/2010/07/nature-of-evolution.html). Most will not. In either case it makes little difference because as creationist Kurt Wise admitted, all the evidence in the universe cannot possibly persuade a YEC he or she might be wrong.
I will get to some of Helder's scientific claims in the next two installments. For the moment, please note (p.2, par.1) that "well-illustrated", "quality", "appealing" publications are her main concern. "Faced with a continuous barrage of evolutionist propaganda and interpretations, many Christian laymen need answers. This is especially so for those people with children who are confronted by such material in the classroom." Helder is a writer, after all, and every writer needs a market. In fact, one could describe the whole YEC/ID enterprise as an attempt to find a popular market despite scientific consensus.
She goes on to list the wonderful new assets that YEC has recently acquired to meet the challenge and bring "a positive Christian interpretation of nature closer to realization". The Institute for Creation Research now has an electron microscope and a spectrometer to measure low-level radiation in coal, for instance (I'm guessing this will help them chip away at the accuracy of radiometric dating, a field which has not been particularly helpful to creation science). The Van Andel Research Center in Arizona is a new base for creationists wishing to conduct studies in and around the Grand Canyon. She tells us rather cryptically that a new and important dinosaur bed in Wyoming has "recently come under Creationist control."
I can't access the article about this particular dinosaur bed but, wow, that last quote sounds like a war dispatch, doesn't it? Certainly a propaganda war.
NEXT -- Helder, Wood, and the nature of scientific theories
Posted in: Disciplining a Retired Pastor
Nice!
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
Dear John... couldn't wait, huh? :)
I am responding because you invited me to. You posed the question. I am trying to answer it. I don't waste time responding to all objections. I just concentrate on ones pretending to be completely scientific and rational as well as claiming to be faithful to the Bible. I find many of these voices repeatedly bear false witness, encourage division in the Christian community, and seem to misunderstand the nature of science. (Incidently, I also invest time and energy in refutions of claims like those of Dawkins. However it's American fundamentalism that's making this more difficult, not the other way around)
Allow me, then, to use Helder as an example of how NOT to respond to "secular science". The first brief installment is just about ready. Then you can have at 'er.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
As long as this church sponsored forum continues to publically promote YEC propaganda, fudge the basic principles and conclusions of modern science, and bear false witness against those who hold them, I will post rebuttal evidence. At least as long as the moderators allow me. :) According to the Heidelberg Catechism teaching on how to honour the 9th commandment, this is my duty before God and my neighbour.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4065
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
I see you removed your comment. Thank you.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
((John.. this is not about you... I am deliberately staying away from making this about you...if you would actually READ what Michael Roberts wrote, especially about the present controveries concerning Young Earth "science", you would see that this is one of the conclusions (among others) he has drawn after looking at YEC behaviours. I have drawn the same conclusions concerning bearing false witness, either by commission or by omission, among many in the YEC camp. It seems many don't realize the impact this is having on our global witness.
I think I'm entitled to my own conclusions as to what is useful and what is not. I think any reader of this thread is also entitled to their conclusions as to what is useful in this discussion. I promise not to make this subject a personal attack on you, John. Lead me not into temptation.. ))
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
google search the title --- How Christians Respond to Secular Science
by Dr. Margaret Helder
to read the paper for yourself.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
I point to Joel Phillips' reflections in December issue of the Banner as an example of how Y.E.C. fear-mongering and polarization have put undue pressure on our brightest young minds. I appreciate Phillip's inclusiveness but this pressure will continue to grow until he has been labelled a "compromiser" or worse.
Perhaps he would be well-served by reading a publication such as Evangelicals and Science by Michael Roberts. It's part of the Greenwood Series and you can read the entire publication with references online. I found it a very helpful elucidation of the issues involved. Take heart Joel! Here's the link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51291276/Evangelicals-and-Science
I will quote a paragraph on the top of page 179 because it points to one of the conclusions that I personally have come to believe in my own research on the topic:
"Because of this misrepresentation many critics of YEC have naively assumed that if it were exposed, then proponents of YEC would simply be forced to change. That has not been the case as the arguments are rarely corrected. One is faced with a paradox. Here are a group of Christians who are emphatic that they stand for family values and the Ten Commandments, who in their writings habitually misquote. Abortion, adultery, and homosexuality are out, yet critics assert that they break the Ninth Commandment (thou shalt not bear false witness). This is incongruous. I speak both of proponents and followers. No one seems to have made sense of this and questions are asked whether YECs activists are deliberately dishonest or simply deluded. Yet they often seem very sane, balanced, and upright people. I offer no answer."
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
My first installment of critiquing Helder's will be ready by the weekend. Monday at the latest.So far it's been a helpful exercise and a great way to get into the nuts and bolts of the controversy. But today I'm going fishing. Like almost every other day. As for Safarti...http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1641/0006-3568%282003%29053%5B0282%3AACAC%5D2.0.CO%3B2
Not sure if I want to read the same sorts of thing over and over again. See if you can catch what Scott and Branch say about Safarti's MO -- he agrees with the arguments of two evolutionists disagreeing with each other and uses this as evidence that evolution is wrong. If it's true, it's "parasitic science" indeed.
Have a Great day, John.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
my last post is actually a repost to which John has replied in his last post.
sorry...
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
John ... If you would like some balance to your reading, or you would like a good example of the "damage" I see to our faith community BECAUSE of fundamentalist attacks on science, see http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
nuff said for now. tight lines.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
As Michael Roberts pointed out, the influence of fundamentalism in developing nations evidenced in South America, Africa and Asia spells trouble for the future of global scientific endeavours. Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is an increasingly popular belief in this burgeoning segment of Christianity as it distinguishes its legacy from a waning western/scientific intellectual legacy. Catholic and Muslim communities in the southern hemisphere are also marshalling themselves against the influences of Darwin and Einstein, for the same purpose and often with identical tactics and hermeneutics.
I, for one, don’t want to be part of any effort to lead my brothers and sisters astray. It is certain that as much as they believed they have honoured God’s Word they will one day realize they have been hoodwinked.
Summary of global shifts in Christianity:
http://followingjesus.org/invitation/postmodern_world.htm
Hanna Rosen 2007 NY Times article “Rock of Ages-- Ages of Rock”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/magazine/25wwln-geologists-t.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=magazine&pagewanted=print&
“We don’t subscribe to this idea of the ‘God of gaps,’ meaning if you can’t explain something, then blame God,” Whitmore told me before describing a method that hardly seemed more scientific. “Instead, we think: ‘Here’s what the Bible says. Now let’s go to the rocks and see if we find the evidence for it.’ ”
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
Dr. Margaret J. Helder's paper entitled "How Christians Respond to Secular Science" (March, 2012; www.frcna.org) is a good example of how not to respond to secular science. She is a fellow Canadian, a botanist, vice-president of the Creation Science Association of Alberta, associate editor of science and technology for Reformed Perspective, a writer, and a mother of six. She has expertise in areas I admire and I have no reason to doubt she is a woman of faith in Jesus Christ. She is also a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) with whom I respectfully disagree.
Dr. Helder begins her paper with a section entitled "Setting the Stage." She tells us about the irony of a sign featuring the words of Job 12:8 which at one time adorned the Royal Tyrrell Museum in Drumheller, Alberta. Helder correctly points out that the verse "Speak to the earth, and let it teach you" is directly followed in the Bible by "who knows not in all these that the hand of the Lord has wrought this?"
"The message of Scripture is unequivocal, that God is the creator of all things. Scripture does not sanction the idea of time and chance as agents of creation as the sign in the museum implied. Neither however does nature point to random processes as the creative agent. The sign in the Royal Tyrrell Museum therefore was wrong on two counts...Once Christians recognize that secular accounts of origins are contrary to Scripture, then they must devise strategies to deal with, and respond to the popular interpretations." (p.1, paragraph 2-3)
I appreciate Helder's concern for accuracy and making sure things are not taken out of context, at least when it comes to quoting the Bible. Yet in her very first two paragraphs Dr. Helder has already misrepresented the position of evolution (presumably, the museum's perspective) no less than three times -- "the idea that random processes...brought about all things"..."the idea of time and chance as agents of creation"..."nature point(s) to random processes".
Every secular scientist would immediately recognize her initial descriptions of evolutionary theory are inaccurate, misleading, and in many ways the opposite of what evolutionary theory explains. Charles Darwin was not a nihilist. If Helder wants to reprimand the Royal Tyrrell for quote-mining and misrepresenting the Bible, she might also want to show good faith by accurately defining evolution theory from the start. At least in taking down the sign the museum avoided the additional charge of hypocrisy. Unfortunately Dr. Helder impales herself on it.
What follows these two paragraphs is a "Gish Gallop" avalanche of references -- creationist book titles, names of prominent YEC scientists and debaters, and a smattering of journal articles -- all apparently showing that creation science, especially in the last 30 years, has shaken the present scientific establishment to its core.
Her bravado is unbridled: Creationists "generally win such debates". People are getting saved. Scientists are changing their minds. Most importantly, "children in the classroom and at home, were provided with quality creationist resources" and "for brief periods, the message of evolution was muted." According to Helder, creationism has put evolution "on the defensive." The pressure it brought to bear on the scientific establishment "may even have been a factor contributing to certain recent revisions in evolution theory. (p. 2, par.1, emphasis is mine -- citing a good example would have been nice).
Yet even after one day of researching these references, it is obvious that Helder's bravado is groundless. In fact, in the last thirty years, evidence for evolutionary theory has (by several orders of magnitude) far outstripped any positive accumulations put forward by creation science. A few YECs are humble enough to admit this (like Todd Wood, the DNA researcher whom Helder quotes in this paper-- cf. toddcwood.blogspot.ca/2010/07/nature-of-evolution.html). Most will not. In either case it makes little difference because as creationist Kurt Wise admitted, all the evidence in the universe cannot possibly persuade a YEC he or she might be wrong.
I will get to some of Helder's scientific claims in the next two installments. For the moment, please note (p.2, par.1) that "well-illustrated", "quality", "appealing" publications are her main concern. "Faced with a continuous barrage of evolutionist propaganda and interpretations, many Christian laymen need answers. This is especially so for those people with children who are confronted by such material in the classroom." Helder is a writer, after all, and every writer needs a market. In fact, one could describe the whole YEC/ID enterprise as an attempt to find a popular market despite scientific consensus.
She goes on to list the wonderful new assets that YEC has recently acquired to meet the challenge and bring "a positive Christian interpretation of nature closer to realization". The Institute for Creation Research now has an electron microscope and a spectrometer to measure low-level radiation in coal, for instance (I'm guessing this will help them chip away at the accuracy of radiometric dating, a field which has not been particularly helpful to creation science). The Van Andel Research Center in Arizona is a new base for creationists wishing to conduct studies in and around the Grand Canyon. She tells us rather cryptically that a new and important dinosaur bed in Wyoming has "recently come under Creationist control."
I can't access the article about this particular dinosaur bed but, wow, that last quote sounds like a war dispatch, doesn't it? Certainly a propaganda war.
NEXT -- Helder, Wood, and the nature of scientific theories