There's plenty of pride and egotism to go around, John. That's for sure.
My take on it is based on shared experiences of young people with a natural tendency to skepticism and curiosity. This is about a preacher telling them that if you shoot a skunk in the woods and let it rot for a couple of weeks, the bones are just as worthy as being called a "fossil" as any other. This is science teachers shutting down thoughtful student objections in the classrooms of our Christian Schools. This is indeed about demonizing fellow Christians because they are not YECs.
Tell you what. I have randomly selected a paper written by a present day YEC by the name of Helder -- "How to Respond to Secular Science". She is better trained in the sciences than I am. But I want to show you how her approach is not at all interested in "winning the battle" against skeptics of any stripe. It's about triumphalism, propaganda, arrogance and ghetto science.
Give me a couple of weeks to give her paper a more careful read and go through it point by point.
I am responding because you invited me to. You posed the question. I am trying to answer it. I don't waste time responding to all objections. I just concentrate on ones pretending to be completely scientific and rational as well as claiming to be faithful to the Bible. I find many of these voices repeatedly bear false witness, encourage division in the Christian community, and seem to misunderstand the nature of science. (Incidently, I also invest time and energy in refutions of claims like those of Dawkins. However it's American fundamentalism that's making this more difficult, not the other way around)
Allow me, then, to use Helder as an example of how NOT to respond to "secular science". The first brief installment is just about ready. Then you can have at 'er.
As long as this church sponsored forum continues to publically promote YEC propaganda, fudge the basic principles and conclusions of modern science, and bear false witness against those who hold them, I will post rebuttal evidence. At least as long as the moderators allow me. :) According to the Heidelberg Catechism teaching on how to honour the 9th commandment, this is my duty before God and my neighbour.
((John.. this is not about you... I am deliberately staying away from making this about you...if you would actually READ what Michael Roberts wrote, especially about the present controveries concerning Young Earth "science", you would see that this is one of the conclusions (among others) he has drawn after looking at YEC behaviours. I have drawn the same conclusions concerning bearing false witness, either by commission or by omission, among many in the YEC camp. It seems many don't realize the impact this is having on our global witness.
I think I'm entitled to my own conclusions as to what is useful and what is not. I think any reader of this thread is also entitled to their conclusions as to what is useful in this discussion. I promise not to make this subject a personal attack on you, John. Lead me not into temptation.. ))
I point to Joel Phillips' reflections in December issue of the Banner as an example of how Y.E.C. fear-mongering and polarization have put undue pressure on our brightest young minds. I appreciate Phillip's inclusiveness but this pressure will continue to grow until he has been labelled a "compromiser" or worse.
Perhaps he would be well-served by reading a publication such as Evangelicals and Science by Michael Roberts. It's part of the Greenwood Series and you can read the entire publication with references online. I found it a very helpful elucidation of the issues involved. Take heart Joel! Here's the link:
I will quote a paragraph on the top of page 179 because it points to one of the conclusions that I personally have come to believe in my own research on the topic:
"Because of this misrepresentation many critics of YEC have naively assumed that if it were exposed, then proponents of YEC would simply be forced to change. That has not been the case as the arguments are rarely corrected. One is faced with a paradox. Here are a group of Christians who are emphatic that they stand for family values and the Ten Commandments, who in their writings habitually misquote. Abortion, adultery, and homosexuality are out, yet critics assert that they break the Ninth Commandment (thou shalt not bear false witness). This is incongruous. I speak both of proponents and followers. No one seems to have made sense of this and questions are asked whether YECs activists are deliberately dishonest or simply deluded. Yet they often seem very sane, balanced, and upright people. I offer no answer."
My first installment of critiquing Helder's will be ready by the weekend. Monday at the latest.So far it's been a helpful exercise and a great way to get into the nuts and bolts of the controversy. But today I'm going fishing. Like almost every other day. As for Safarti...http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1641/0006-3568%282003%29053%5B0282%3AACAC%5D2.0.CO%3B2
Not sure if I want to read the same sorts of thing over and over again. See if you can catch what Scott and Branch say about Safarti's MO -- he agrees with the arguments of two evolutionists disagreeing with each other and uses this as evidence that evolution is wrong. If it's true, it's "parasitic science" indeed.
John ... If you would like some balance to your reading, or you would like a good example of the "damage" I see to our faith community BECAUSE of fundamentalist attacks on science, see http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
As Michael Roberts pointed out, the influence of fundamentalism in developing nations evidenced in South America, Africa and Asia spells trouble for the future of global scientific endeavours. Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is an increasingly popular belief in this burgeoning segment of Christianity as it distinguishes its legacy from a waning western/scientific intellectual legacy. Catholic and Muslim communities in the southern hemisphere are also marshalling themselves against the influences of Darwin and Einstein, for the same purpose and often with identical tactics and hermeneutics.
I, for one, don’t want to be part of any effort to lead my brothers and sisters astray. It is certain that as much as they believed they have honoured God’s Word they will one day realize they have been hoodwinked.
“We don’t subscribe to this idea of the ‘God of gaps,’ meaning if you can’t explain something, then blame God,” Whitmore told me before describing a method that hardly seemed more scientific. “Instead, we think: ‘Here’s what the Bible says. Now let’s go to the rocks and see if we find the evidence for it.’ ”
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
There's plenty of pride and egotism to go around, John. That's for sure.
My take on it is based on shared experiences of young people with a natural tendency to skepticism and curiosity. This is about a preacher telling them that if you shoot a skunk in the woods and let it rot for a couple of weeks, the bones are just as worthy as being called a "fossil" as any other. This is science teachers shutting down thoughtful student objections in the classrooms of our Christian Schools. This is indeed about demonizing fellow Christians because they are not YECs.
Tell you what. I have randomly selected a paper written by a present day YEC by the name of Helder -- "How to Respond to Secular Science". She is better trained in the sciences than I am. But I want to show you how her approach is not at all interested in "winning the battle" against skeptics of any stripe. It's about triumphalism, propaganda, arrogance and ghetto science.
Give me a couple of weeks to give her paper a more careful read and go through it point by point.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
Here's why creation science, as presently practiced, is a myth.
It's purely antagonistic and propagandist.
It's purely political.
It holds the rest of the Christian community hostage to its biblicist, literalist, claims and we are all paying for it.
Here's an example of what's going on in America:
http://www.texscience.org/meetings/sboe-live-blog-2009January21-23.htm
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
Dear John... couldn't wait, huh? :)
I am responding because you invited me to. You posed the question. I am trying to answer it. I don't waste time responding to all objections. I just concentrate on ones pretending to be completely scientific and rational as well as claiming to be faithful to the Bible. I find many of these voices repeatedly bear false witness, encourage division in the Christian community, and seem to misunderstand the nature of science. (Incidently, I also invest time and energy in refutions of claims like those of Dawkins. However it's American fundamentalism that's making this more difficult, not the other way around)
Allow me, then, to use Helder as an example of how NOT to respond to "secular science". The first brief installment is just about ready. Then you can have at 'er.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
As long as this church sponsored forum continues to publically promote YEC propaganda, fudge the basic principles and conclusions of modern science, and bear false witness against those who hold them, I will post rebuttal evidence. At least as long as the moderators allow me. :) According to the Heidelberg Catechism teaching on how to honour the 9th commandment, this is my duty before God and my neighbour.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4065
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
I see you removed your comment. Thank you.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
((John.. this is not about you... I am deliberately staying away from making this about you...if you would actually READ what Michael Roberts wrote, especially about the present controveries concerning Young Earth "science", you would see that this is one of the conclusions (among others) he has drawn after looking at YEC behaviours. I have drawn the same conclusions concerning bearing false witness, either by commission or by omission, among many in the YEC camp. It seems many don't realize the impact this is having on our global witness.
I think I'm entitled to my own conclusions as to what is useful and what is not. I think any reader of this thread is also entitled to their conclusions as to what is useful in this discussion. I promise not to make this subject a personal attack on you, John. Lead me not into temptation.. ))
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
google search the title --- How Christians Respond to Secular Science
by Dr. Margaret Helder
to read the paper for yourself.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
I point to Joel Phillips' reflections in December issue of the Banner as an example of how Y.E.C. fear-mongering and polarization have put undue pressure on our brightest young minds. I appreciate Phillip's inclusiveness but this pressure will continue to grow until he has been labelled a "compromiser" or worse.
Perhaps he would be well-served by reading a publication such as Evangelicals and Science by Michael Roberts. It's part of the Greenwood Series and you can read the entire publication with references online. I found it a very helpful elucidation of the issues involved. Take heart Joel! Here's the link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51291276/Evangelicals-and-Science
I will quote a paragraph on the top of page 179 because it points to one of the conclusions that I personally have come to believe in my own research on the topic:
"Because of this misrepresentation many critics of YEC have naively assumed that if it were exposed, then proponents of YEC would simply be forced to change. That has not been the case as the arguments are rarely corrected. One is faced with a paradox. Here are a group of Christians who are emphatic that they stand for family values and the Ten Commandments, who in their writings habitually misquote. Abortion, adultery, and homosexuality are out, yet critics assert that they break the Ninth Commandment (thou shalt not bear false witness). This is incongruous. I speak both of proponents and followers. No one seems to have made sense of this and questions are asked whether YECs activists are deliberately dishonest or simply deluded. Yet they often seem very sane, balanced, and upright people. I offer no answer."
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
My first installment of critiquing Helder's will be ready by the weekend. Monday at the latest.So far it's been a helpful exercise and a great way to get into the nuts and bolts of the controversy. But today I'm going fishing. Like almost every other day. As for Safarti...http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.1641/0006-3568%282003%29053%5B0282%3AACAC%5D2.0.CO%3B2
Not sure if I want to read the same sorts of thing over and over again. See if you can catch what Scott and Branch say about Safarti's MO -- he agrees with the arguments of two evolutionists disagreeing with each other and uses this as evidence that evolution is wrong. If it's true, it's "parasitic science" indeed.
Have a Great day, John.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
my last post is actually a repost to which John has replied in his last post.
sorry...
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
John ... If you would like some balance to your reading, or you would like a good example of the "damage" I see to our faith community BECAUSE of fundamentalist attacks on science, see http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm
nuff said for now. tight lines.
Posted in: Creation vs Evolution: Impact on Witness and Faith
As Michael Roberts pointed out, the influence of fundamentalism in developing nations evidenced in South America, Africa and Asia spells trouble for the future of global scientific endeavours. Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is an increasingly popular belief in this burgeoning segment of Christianity as it distinguishes its legacy from a waning western/scientific intellectual legacy. Catholic and Muslim communities in the southern hemisphere are also marshalling themselves against the influences of Darwin and Einstein, for the same purpose and often with identical tactics and hermeneutics.
I, for one, don’t want to be part of any effort to lead my brothers and sisters astray. It is certain that as much as they believed they have honoured God’s Word they will one day realize they have been hoodwinked.
Summary of global shifts in Christianity:
http://followingjesus.org/invitation/postmodern_world.htm
Hanna Rosen 2007 NY Times article “Rock of Ages-- Ages of Rock”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/magazine/25wwln-geologists-t.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=magazine&pagewanted=print&
“We don’t subscribe to this idea of the ‘God of gaps,’ meaning if you can’t explain something, then blame God,” Whitmore told me before describing a method that hardly seemed more scientific. “Instead, we think: ‘Here’s what the Bible says. Now let’s go to the rocks and see if we find the evidence for it.’ ”