Lou Wagenveld

If anyone wonders where "Lou" has been, he's been prayerfully watching the comments on this site, and for the meeting of the Synodical Task Force which met this week.  Joel Boot informed me that they saw the "open letter" and will be talking about it again in their November conference call meeting.  I hope they also see all your comments, as John says, Dan's points and perspective "should become a starting point for discussions about CRWM and CRWRC."  Lets hope they are reading this also.

But for the sake of clarification, I want to ask Dan and Rich whom he quotes: "uniting word and deed is a great idea. Merging these two agencies is not. Something essential is bound to be lost.”  What might that "essence" be, and what is lost on me that I don't understand the logic of that sequence?

Dan et al.  This note from El Salvador where I´m spending ten fascinating days again visitng a place where "at the end of last century" we spent five years very existencially living these questions.  The focus of my visit now is talking through a ¨Word and Deed Project" with the small CRC of ES churches.  But I want to respond anecdotally yet pointedly to your wondering about "in Nigeria" (it was Argentina) "did he always have the full force of the resources of CRWRC available to him and the churches he was nurturing?!

Precisely, NO!  It was already by then becoming evident that the agencies were not always on the some page.  I stand to be corrected, by my memory says that three times our Argentine Field Council formally requested a survey visit  by CRWRC to coordinate with needs we missionaries were encountering there, and for which we had neither training nor budget.  One of the reasons we were given from afar for never coming was that "Argentina is a bread basket county"!  Is it lost on any readers now, that not so many years ago Argentina formally went backrupt?!  And to her eternal credit, Catalina Griffeon from the Netherlands spent 30 years practically on her own among the poorest of the poor indigenous in the Chaco region; her earthly credit came from the Argentine government in the form of a Congressonal medal last year.  How wonderful if someone like her and our missionaries related to that ministry could have received a recognition in name of the CRCNA and not just as an individual.   

So lets keep the conversation going.  I´m told we have lots of readers... accompany the Synodical Taks Force on Structure and Culture (hey, if you want to experience a complex one, join me sometime here on a visit to ES!) in their task, and share your perspective on the issues under consideration and discussion.   Yes, HERE! Go for it!  WHO?!  You in the woodwork!

Hi Ann.  I can only comment that my preference, and I am ordained, is for "pastor."   But that is subjective.

What I can help you with more objectively is the grammer; you wrote: My church calls both my husband and I "pastor." That would be "me"; "...calls ME, not I", correct?  As leaders we must exemplify correct English usage, I feel.

Appreciatively, Lou

Whoops. even more basic is to call people by their correct name.  Sorry, AMY! (not Ann)

Lou

No easy answer to this one.  After years working with Hispanic churches that have their own version of this difficulty,  I just have another question.  I wonder if Korean EMs integrating with Anglo EMs - in places where proximity etc. allow for it - could be a solution for some?

Lou

While I was in Language Services as an interpreter/translator, I still was able to get a good sense of what was happening in the uniting conference. At times as I tried to gauge the participation from the floor, I got the feeling that the REC was jumping into the WARC river, and while it made a splash, it later bobbed along barely above the surface. It was evident to me that the WARC people are more accostomed to this kind of process and had the major initiatives already underway.
As to "communion" and "justice" I truly hope that a good balance can be maintained. But at times I got the sensation that some of the more forceful - at times in committee almost strident - voices for justice matters were not willing to slow the pace to allow some of the folk less oriented to that catch up. It would be not only sad but unjust if some sectors/denominations are not given time to adjust and truly experience the union of communion, and choose to paddle in other waters.

Missional discipleship.  Problem: getting them off the couch and the bleachers and into the classroom... or small group

living rooms.   Motivation?  from leadership - pastors and elders, maybe deacons also.

Thanks for this piece, Shane; my ambivalence about short term missions continues after having looked at that phenomena for many years.  I have a question: you mention "community" but not really "church."  Is there coordination with some local church group, or what form does the "community" take in this?  Additional information, please, and your comment about the role of the church - and our Mission also present in the country - when you go with World Renew?

Thanks, Ray.  Helpful information and perspective.  Allow me some commentary and reminisences....

Bsides my three-word "missiology" (Word and Deed) I have a corallary: Christ-centered, Church-based."  Hence in part my question about this.  Next, I suppose I work out of some old paradigms - I've already been retired 10 years!  When I grew up Youth for Christ (and I understand your equivalence; fine) was frowed upon for a couple of reasons - it was para-ecclesiastical, and worse, it took young people away from the churches.  OK, granted; other times, other places now. And I like when the churches can work together and if it takes a para-church group to make that happen, fine.  But I still wonder if the local churches are seeing a reinforcement of holistic growth in their ministries...which leads me to ask:

...about the last part of my response: are both CRWM and World Renew working with the YMCA on this? 

You confused me; looked like this was for new subscribers, but then another post with "if you're subscribed."

So  who is this really for?

Thanks, Steve, for re-visiting this perennial topic in missions/development work.  You write:

"...the challenge is to look for transformation in the lives of people."  My experience is that people necessarily continue in their culture and mileu, and that to think that two years is going to work a significant change is, yes "hope" but not at all that certain. I'd like you to put this piece and the Cambodian project in your 2014 agenda to revisit to see how it is progressing by then.

    I can't say that I have a good notion of what that Field School consists of, which would be a big factor in evaluating the likelihood of your hopes being realized.    One other observation I make: I have not seen many places where "missionary and development worker" are juxtaposed in the way you use those terms; interesting.  To me it betrays in just one more way the separation of Word and deed that has hamstrung our ministry efforts for the last two generations. 

    So at this season  of hope, lets hope and work for the outcome of the re?structure and culture change that is underway.

Thanks for submitting this, Anneke, via Wendy's post.  As someone deeply interested in and committed to holistic Christian witness, I read this type of post with keen interest.

I sensed, Wendy, something of an "apples and oranges" disjunction in that the title led me think we were going to get something on short term MISSIONS projects.  But the "paper" is about community development; our old bug-a-boo about our terminology... is development "missions."  Of course it is, or should be.  Allow me a couple of comments/questions.

I also sensed something of a disjunction between what sounded like CRWRC's direct work through local/national "staff" as contrasted with the next paragraph, working with local churches. Are those national workers identified as  staff of an international development organization? Are they on loan to other NGOs?  And, are they Christians?  How do they work? Does CRWRC pay church-related staff to carry out the projects?

Back to the question of STMs.  Anneke is correct in her skepticism about much of what is tried.  A story I know about is of a California church that spent $83,000 on a ten-day trip to Uganda to "form a library, build a wall, and start a new church." Yeah, all in ten days!   My concern is to see "church growth" and "community development" so integrated that it becomes an almost seamless witness to a full-orbed Gospel witness.

What I didn't read in the paper is what if anything these good community development models are doing for the increase in the number and depth of the local churches, of whatever denomination.  Lets keep conversing.......

(Disclaimer/clarification: when in the last paragraph "church based development work is twice mentioned, I construe that as CRWRC's N. American church based structure.  And as discussed elsewhere, I hope that is not eroded significantly with the changes that took place over the summer with Synod's approval of a name change... and whatever else may be coming down the pike along with that)