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Posted in: Matt 18:15

Brian,

I agree with the other posters so far. The only caution I have is that sometimes, when we get ornery, dig in our heals and push back at the congregation, saying things like, "They need to realise that they're the ones with the problem" we could well be heading into (if not already in the thick of) sin in our own lives. I think it IS important for us to have a healthy (but not guilt-ridden) self-examination when congregations raise these issues and ask ourselves some of the following questions:

<ol>

<li>Why do I preach as long as I do? Could I say the same thing in a shorter way, would it honour God to do so? Does it honour God that I speak as long as I do? Do I hamper the delivery of the Word of God by speaking for 30 min. (I have a preaching friend colleague who thinks that no on should preach longer than 18min.)</li>

<li>Why do we introduce new songs? How often do we introduce them? Are we introducing them just to be "attractive" to people from outside our church? Or are we introducing new songs to bring new life and perspective, etc.?</li>

</ol>

If we ask ourselves these kinds of questions and others in a healthy, not beating yourself up kind of way, then the angst that others express to us about "things they don't like" can actually lead us into deeper and better servant-leadership of the church. 

That doesn't mean that we have to approach the people who've made these accusations from the Matt. 18 perspective, as if we had sinned (unless upon self-examination we've found that we HAVE sinned). In fact, quite often if I personally examine myself and find sin relating to this kind of thing, it is quite often not the same kind of sin that I have been "accused" of committing. Certainly preaching "too long" or having "too many" new songs are not sins in and of themselves, per-se. But the motivations behind doing these things can be just as sinful as the motivations of those who cry "too many", "too much" or "I don't like it!" in the first place.

My advice is this: Humbly receive the criticism, saying thank you for talking to you, then share with them the purpose for the changes, and how this isn't about like or dislike but it's about ______________ (fill in the blank).

I would also recommend that, if your church hasn't done so already, you work with the Council to come up with a statement about what you believe worship to be, why you do what you do (or don't do what you don't do) and what kind of feedback is acceptable and/or unacceptable from the congregation.

We've done that in terms of worship. We've created a document (with the significant help of a sister church's previous work) relaying what worship is, what it looks like in our context and what we expect from the congregation in response to that. It doesn't get rid of all the complaining, but at least people have something to examine and "measure" a worship service against and measure themselves against too.

More long winded than I intended. Hopefully it was helpful nonetheless.

 

in His service,

 

Dan

Daniel Zylstra on July 2, 2013

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

[quote=John Zylstra]

The real issue is whether scripture means what it says.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, John, but that line alone is such a pile of hooey. The real issue is NOT whether scripture means what it says. We ALL agree that scriptures mean what they say. The REAL question is whether or not OUR interpretation of scriptures lines up with what scripture actually intends to say. This is an ABSOULUTELY critical distinction. Your statement is inflamatory and wrong. I've not ever heard anyone say, "I want to argue that the scriptures do not mean what they say they mean."

I've heard people argue that "The scriptures don't mean what YOU say they mean." I've heard people say, "The scriptures don't say what we've thought they've been saying." But no one says "The scriptures don't mean what they say."

Case in point: Proverbs 26:4-5 has the following proverbs:

 

“Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.

Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.”

 

So, which is it? Do we answer the fool or not? Obviously the "interpretation" of these proverbs needs to be more than surface deep. You may use your hermeneutical tools to come up with an interpretation of this that is different than mine. We may argue about that. Are either one of us arguing that the scriptures don't say these things, or that they don't mean what they say? No. Are we arguing with the way in which you or I interpreted those passages? Yes. 

 

It's the same with the creation story. You might argue that God created the world in 6, 24-hour days. I might argue that God created the world in 6, "1000-years is as unto a day", days. Are either one of us saying that the scriptures doesn't mean what it says? No. Are we arguing that each others' understanding of the scriptures is better/worse and/or more or less correct. Yes.

Just to add to this... in case you're tempted to think: What's the possible relevance of this!? Scientists have recently calculated that there may be about 8.8 BILLION stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone that have earth-sized (and possibly habitable) planets around them. Considering how many galaxys there are... well you do the math....

Daniel Zylstra on November 16, 2013

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

Thanks, for pointing out Lewis' "Space Trilogy". I've enjoyed the series quite a few times myself, and love the way Lewis explores these topics. Two things to note, though: in the one book "Out of the Silent Planet", Lewis explores a kind of precursor creation to our own, in which the characters of the planet Malachandra don't seem to be fully equipped to "choose" sin over obedience— I seems like an utterly foreign concept to them. In the second book "Perelandra" we discover a kind of "alternate history" version  of a race very similar to our own who face a "redemption" before they even fall.

I, however, am interested here in thinking about two things that are not really addressed in Lewis' books:

1. What might "redemption" look like for a race utterly foreign to us (ie, a colonial being), and how might Christ's "once-for-all" sacrifice for our redemption might be connected to other beings/races' redemption story?

2. What a reflection through completely "other"/alien lenses might say about our own understanding of the gospel.

Thanks again for your thoughts, everyone! I'd love to hear more from all of you.

 

Joy,

I'm afraid your comments may not be very helpful. Your language here seems to be more inflamatory than conciliatory. There is certainly no excuse for mobs of racially motivated people "knocking out" people of other races. However, neither is there any excuse for language which over generalizes, and makes even more racially polarizing remarks to boot.

If you truly want to address the issue and have something done about it, then maybe we should be asking questions like:

Why is this happening at all? If we were a truly non-racist society, wouldn't this kind of behaviour be utterly ludicrous? How can we "love our enemies" here, as Jesus asked us to do? How can we support the victims (those attacked) by these mobs? How can we seek to bring the true, reconciling justice of Christ to all parties concerned in such happenings?

Those are the kinds of questions we need to be asking. Not inflammatory questions regarding "where the media outrage is" or "imagin[ing] what it would be like if whites attacked blacks like this" None of those questions is helpful, I'm afraid, except insofar as they reflect your feelings of upset: feelings which are natural and understandable. It IS upsetting when ANY people attack ANY other people--especially when it's racially motivated. But let's seek to make it better, not worse.

I'd like to propose a slightly different approach to the matter for a couple of reasons here:

  • First, we need to remember that the tithe was, in biblical times, given to the local "church", and that part of Israel's infrastructure as a theocracy was that the church would provide for the education of the children to some degree. Thus, when children went to school, that schooling was "paid for" by the tithe (at least in part).
  • Second, and I'm sure you all know this so I don't really need to say it again, but the tithe was only one portion of the giving that Israelites were expected to do. They had all kinds of other offerings that they were to give. So the whole terminology of the tithe is, in old testament terms, somewhat misleading.
  • Third, Old Testament tithes and offerings were not just financial, of course, people gave of what they produced--mostly crops because Israel was an agricultural society.
  • Fourth, Jesus really seems to up the ante with giving in the New Testament--beyond Old Testament tithing and beyond all the other offerings too. Remember, of course, how Jesus interacts with the disciples about the old woman giving at the temple and the rich young ruler, and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
  • Fifth, add in the good Kuiperyian (sp?) reminder of the biblical truth of Jesus' sovereignty over all things and you're led (IMHO) to the following conclusions...(and I raise them partly to see what people's responses will be)
  1. We should be teach (and practice) that none of the money or resources that we have are ours--all of it belongs to God.
  2. We should teach (and practice) that Jesus doesn't give hard and fast rules about how much people should give, rather he teaches that more is better--more giving is better (as a general rule and as long as the motivations are right).
  3. We should teach that strictly giving financially to the church is not an option either--that the Bible teaches that giving of whatever you produce is the rule--not just the money you get. Giving back to God what is His in terms of talents and time are part of a proper picture of giving.
  4. And we should teach that if people need a guideline to start with then they should wrestle with God over the idea of giving 10% back to him, but that that is only the beginning of their journey of stewardship.

In other words, I don't think we should make the issue too easy for people. We should challenge ourselves to wrestle with God on this one--What does God want me to give at this time, and in this place? Jesus doesn't make these issues easy for anyone, but instead constantly challenged people to be more faithful, and more giving and more loving.

What do you think, folks?

Dan.

Daniel Zylstra on June 11, 2010

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

Thanks for the encouragement, Henry. You raise a good point about the other times when our families' ability to give is severely reduced. I really think that this is a matter we need to be constantly challenging ourselves on and that the ultimate decision is a faith one--faith in dialogue with God who guides us leading us to a true sacrificial giving that is still ultimately stewardly.

Anyway, I enjoy the discussion too. Blessings, all!

Daniel Zylstra on May 13, 2011

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

Dear Iowa Baptist,

Thanks for contributing to the discussion. I'm not sure what the baptist denominations are like in your neck of the woods, but in Ontario here you are absolutely correct in one sense, but I would humbly submit, totally incorrect in another. The truth of the matter that pretty much any Christian denomination would echo your statement that belief in Jesus is the only requirement for membership in the church.

However, the reality is that, practically speaking, almost all denominations and churches require more for actual "membership" per se. For example, most baptist churches require not only belief in Jesus Christ, but also they require that a person be baptised as a "believer" as opposed to not being baptized at all or being baptized as an infant. Most of the Baptist churches I've been involved with (and there've been quite a few) will not accept a person into full membership in the church without this believer's baptism.

Some baptist churches will not accept a person into full membership unless they've been baptized by full immersion as a believer too. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is evil somehow or anything like that. In the Reformed tradition we have other "requirements" for full membership--not just belief, but a baptism (infant or believer's) and/or a profession of faith afirming the promises of that infant baptism. Some of these requirements are good for sure. 

But, we sometimes hold on to a "reformed" or "baptist" or "pentecostal" distinctive at the expense of the gospel, I'm afraid. If reformed people truly believed that saving faith in Jesus was all that was required for membership in the church, then we wouldn't have the forms that we do have for profession of faith or baptism, would we? No. Those forms include not just that saving faith in Jesus, but also that saving faith in Jesus + belief that everything that this church teaches is the true interpretation of the gospel + that we've gone through whatever hoops we believe are required in addition to "just believing"

Anyway, sorry for being long winded, Iowa Baptist, but in the end I'm afraid that, unless your church/denomination is quite a bit different from all others I've come in contact with, I'll have to disagree with your statement that your church only requires faith in Jesus--that's not all my church requires either.

in His service,

Dan.

Daniel Zylstra on June 8, 2011

In reply to by anonymous_stub (not verified)

 

 

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, Richard, but let me just say that I LOVE what you've written here. It's very helpful for me.

But now I have another question: What if I said that "nailing down" innessentials is a SIN (not saying that's what I necessarily think--but just take it as a proposition)? 

If that proposition were true then:

1) It would be a SIN to require infant baptism over believer's only baptism and vice versa.

2) It would be a SIN to require women be allowed in office, but it would also be a SIN not to.

3) It would be a SIN to require that people be amillenial, premillenial, etc.

4) etc., etc.,

In other words the more we "codify" what the gospels supposedly teach on matters that can be legitimately debated, the more we fall into the sin of phariseeism.

Would that be a fair definition of phariseeism? If so, then wouldn't things like this year's "Faith Formation Report" (for Synod 2011) be a problem? It's stated madate is to "discourage" infant dedication. I myself agree wholeheartedly with infant baptism and the covenant theology surrounding it, but there are many who do not and who can make very good arguments the other way. Shouldn't we, as a denomination do something different here?

What do you think, everyone?

 

Dan.

I don't know about that, Larry. My reading of the proposed article 18 includes brackets around that part where it talks about the heresy of the Anabaptists. This is similar to what was don with the H.C. and the Roman Catholic mass being a "condemnable idolotry"-- the translation committee elected to keep the language, but note that it was historical and that we no longer believe that this is the actual situation. 

On the other hand, the HC change had a footnote to that effect, and I don't see one here, so I wonder...what do those brackets mean here?

Thoughts, anyone?

in His service,

 

Dan.

It doesn't. I don't mean to be rude, but if you read my comment, I say that the remarks in question have square brackets around them, and that similar square brackets in the HC concerning Q&A 80 are followed with a footnote that indicates that we no longer believe this to be true about the Catholic Church. I then go on to ask whether or not thes square brackets are supposed to mean something similar with regards to the Anabaptists. I don't claim that they for sure do mean something similar, I simply am speculating.

Dan.

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