Thank you for all your comments. I am surprised that there aren't more but it is the summer.
First, let me reply to Joe. I read a lot of current affairs that use CE. I do not mean to make any theological statements by that.
Now to Harry. I am deeply distressed by events in Nigeria and the Middle East. We do need to be in prayer for our Christian brothers and sisters who are persecuted, forced to flee from their homes, traumatized. I realize that is is nearly impossible for Christians to live under IS. But I continue to believe that we should not judge all Muslims by these extremist groups, and in fact many Muslim leaders have denounced IS, Boko Haram and other groups using violent tactics that target minorities. We have to remember that much of the current violence is Muslim vs Muslim, not Muslim vs Christian. Before the current events in Syria, Muslims and Christians co-existed well - I know that from a Syrian Christian. My intent in this post was to compare Christianity to Islam, to help us understand why Sharia is important to Muslims and to show that in Christianity we have gone a completely different route - looking to the guidance of a living God and his Spirit rather than a codified law to guide us. In this the Anabaptist missionary and scholar Dr. David Shenk is my guide. His peace building focus is one that I hope we can all adopt.
Thanks Roger for contributing to the discussion. I appreciate where you are coming from and we need to continue this kind of dialogue (intra-faith dialogue).
Hi Dan thanks for your comments. They are very perceptive. In light of that I have been watching my Muslim friends and they seem to proclaim their faith quite openly without getting into the same trouble (offending others). That maybe due to the fact that they are in the minority and there is more tolerance for their approach and less tolerance for Christianity in our post-Christendom society. It may also be the lower key approach that Muslims take in these interfaith settings. You won't hear "Allahu Akbar" (God is greater), but you will hear the Quran being recited. They will be ready to hand out Qurans - but won't push it if you don't want one. So that makes me wonder if there isn't a middle road to wisely speaking truth without offending - some have called it winsome witness - perhaps a simple prayer acknowledging that Jesus is Lord. I don't have all of the answers but have appreciated this discussion.
Hi Roger, thank you for your comments and for this discussion. I think the answer to some of your questions is found in the writing of Lesslie Newbigin. Newbigin has both liberal and evangelical influences and was a big part of the ecumenical movement in the 20th century. He was committed to both ecumenism and world mission and I think lamented that the WCC moved away from evangelistic mission towards more justice oriented issues. Still it was also the end of colonialism and the independence movements of many countries. This was also the period when there was a call for a moratorium on foreign missions. Yet Newbigin managed to bridge these movements with his clear call to journey together towards Jesus as the answer for all peoples in all places and to journey in a way that does not judge but rather leads to or points to the saving work of Christ. So Newbigin would say that we should not judge but rather witness faithfully to the truth that has been entrusted to us faithfully by the Christian community. Newbigin points out that the problem with judging is that whenever Jesus refers to who exactly will gain entrance into heaven there is usually an element of surprise. So that means those who judge harshly the eternal future of others should also be worried about their own future (perhaps because they are already in danger of self-righteousness and theological pride). So I think Newbigin's theology of missions and religions does help us today with some of these dilemmas and challenges. I have only begun to unpack some of the richness of Newbigin's thinking on all of this.
Thank you Michelle we really need your perspective on these matters. Certainly our Reformed theology points to the depravity of all people and how easy we can be coaxed into evil (the Nazis as an example). It is too easy for us to scapegoat people with mental illness and as the Bell Lets Talk initiative shows, a lot of this is coming to light in the public square and there is much more awareness. Unfortunately there are still a lack of services and treatment in the area of mental health, long wait times for programs such as DBT and other challenges in our health care system on the Canada side. My other comment is that I think we have to start to look at mental illness more as mental health. Just like physical health we are all on a spectrum - some more healthy, some less. I meet few individuals who are 100% healthy mentally from what I can tell. Some practice mental fitness through therapy or medication and that should be encouraged. I wonder if it would decrease stigma if we thought more about a spectrum that we are all on rather than a black and white division between the mentally ill and the mentally well. We all experience the brokenness of this world in different ways and look forward and live forward to the telos of Jesus's coming again.
Thank you for raising this concern. I am not sure a post like this would make it on to the agenda of the EIRC but I will bring it to the attention of one of the members.
Thanks Jason for staying "on topic" and for your thoughts on this. You nail the tension in the universalist approach of some groups. It is important that we can declare Jesus as the way, truth and life. Lesslie Newbiggin is someone who charted an course in interfaith engagement that both did that yet opened the way for the religious other to speak and be heard. One way he did that was by focusing on witnessing rather than judging. I think also the Reformed doctrine of common grace helps us to look for where the Holy Spirit is shining through in other religions while at the same time remembering the antithesis of Romans 1 - that there is demonic subjugation as well - and for sure a human fallen tendency to create idols - but I am not comfortable painting other religious traditions with one brush (all demonic or all true). There is a complex mix - this ministry is messy and I value a place for discussion like this.
Excellent rebuttal Izaak. I am glad to see we are on topic. Not everyone agrees with the doctrine of common grace. I believe the Protestant Reformed Church rejected this doctrine. According to Berkhof's Systematic Theology. Calvin referred to common grace alongside special grace as curbing the destructive power of sin in the world, maintaining a measure of good order in the world as well as a moral order. This doctrine was further developed by Kuyper and Bavinck. Unlike special grace, it doesn't originate in the atoning work of Christ but rather the creation order. It comes from the idea that God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Rom 2:15 talks about knowing God but hindering the truth in unrighteousness. So I think this doctrine can help explain the moral order of other religious traditions. However this is not special or saving grace that can only come through Jesus and in fact the moral order can become an idol in itself (merit based legalism). So I can respect my religious neighbor for his or her charity or devotion to prayer without saying that they have found actual salvation in their religion. I think this is helpful. Perhaps "shining through" was an overstatement. Peaking through maybe. But the light is Jesus - that is something we should emphasize for sure. I hope that makes sense.
Thanks Jason for filling in a little more about common grace. I was mainly thinking of dialogue situations, and civic events like the one referred to in my post. Interfaith worship events are definitely trickier - I don't want to endorse them point blank. I think there are a number of factors that maybe necessitates another post. I do not want to enter into a setting where I appear to be giving allegiance to other belief systems and gods - that would be a more corporate interfaith worship setting. I have from time to time visited the mosque and then prayed quietly in the back in my own way (praying for Jesus to guide me in my visit and be honored in this place). That is a little different. When we are invited to more ceremonial services (that can be considered prayers, etc) after traumatic events in the wider community then we have to prayerfully discern if our presence, as you mention, will be a missional witness to our deep faith in the biblical revelation and a very Christ like desire to build peace and bring healing - or the opposite - that Christians don't really believe in anything because we are so secularlzed. Not easy.
You have some good insights Roger and I understand your position. I noticed this at the Parliament of World Religions as Christianity fit into that community (from my perspective) as an ethical system. This was also the theme of the conference. But it does conveniently avoid the scandal of the cross and salvation through Christ alone. This is a challenge for sure - and your caution about avoiding hypocrisy is important.
One solution that some of my colleagues are experimenting with is Scriptural Reasoning. It allows the dialogue to arise from sacred texts and makes space for each participant to read and explain his or her sacred text. The others listen intently and try to understand. The good thing about this is that all texts are fair game including ones that speak to the uniqueness of the Christian message of salvation by grace (choosing texts is of course up to the discretion of the participants). I think this has potential to both witness clearly to the Gospel yet also contribute to religious harmony. Perhaps we need to be ready to "embarrass" ourselves in such settings.
Good question Larry. Given our current structure I wouldn't recommend merging but we do need to coordinate more, and as a church see social justice as part of the mission of the church. So the Office of Social Justice is part of that, as is World Renew, and Resonate as we minister to the marginalized. That is what I take from the Johannine passage and from Newbigin's reflections on it. To quote him, "The Church is recognizable as the bearer of the Kingdom, the presence of the Kingdom, in so far as it is marked by the scars of the Passion. And the Passion of Jesus is not passive submission to evil, but the price paid for an active challenge to evil." Newbigin was also critical of the church growth movement of Donald McGavran. For Newbigin the purpose of the church was not simply to add new members, but to be the present reality of the reign of God in our local context.
Posted in: Sharia and the Holy Spirit
Thank you for all your comments. I am surprised that there aren't more but it is the summer.
First, let me reply to Joe. I read a lot of current affairs that use CE. I do not mean to make any theological statements by that.
Now to Harry. I am deeply distressed by events in Nigeria and the Middle East. We do need to be in prayer for our Christian brothers and sisters who are persecuted, forced to flee from their homes, traumatized. I realize that is is nearly impossible for Christians to live under IS. But I continue to believe that we should not judge all Muslims by these extremist groups, and in fact many Muslim leaders have denounced IS, Boko Haram and other groups using violent tactics that target minorities. We have to remember that much of the current violence is Muslim vs Muslim, not Muslim vs Christian. Before the current events in Syria, Muslims and Christians co-existed well - I know that from a Syrian Christian. My intent in this post was to compare Christianity to Islam, to help us understand why Sharia is important to Muslims and to show that in Christianity we have gone a completely different route - looking to the guidance of a living God and his Spirit rather than a codified law to guide us. In this the Anabaptist missionary and scholar Dr. David Shenk is my guide. His peace building focus is one that I hope we can all adopt.
Posted in: Inspire 2019 in Three Words
Diverse, challenging, hopeful.
Posted in: Where Are the Evangelicals?
Thanks Roger for contributing to the discussion. I appreciate where you are coming from and we need to continue this kind of dialogue (intra-faith dialogue).
Posted in: Where Are the Evangelicals?
Hi Dan thanks for your comments. They are very perceptive. In light of that I have been watching my Muslim friends and they seem to proclaim their faith quite openly without getting into the same trouble (offending others). That maybe due to the fact that they are in the minority and there is more tolerance for their approach and less tolerance for Christianity in our post-Christendom society. It may also be the lower key approach that Muslims take in these interfaith settings. You won't hear "Allahu Akbar" (God is greater), but you will hear the Quran being recited. They will be ready to hand out Qurans - but won't push it if you don't want one. So that makes me wonder if there isn't a middle road to wisely speaking truth without offending - some have called it winsome witness - perhaps a simple prayer acknowledging that Jesus is Lord. I don't have all of the answers but have appreciated this discussion.
Posted in: Where Are the Evangelicals?
Hi Roger, thank you for your comments and for this discussion. I think the answer to some of your questions is found in the writing of Lesslie Newbigin. Newbigin has both liberal and evangelical influences and was a big part of the ecumenical movement in the 20th century. He was committed to both ecumenism and world mission and I think lamented that the WCC moved away from evangelistic mission towards more justice oriented issues. Still it was also the end of colonialism and the independence movements of many countries. This was also the period when there was a call for a moratorium on foreign missions. Yet Newbigin managed to bridge these movements with his clear call to journey together towards Jesus as the answer for all peoples in all places and to journey in a way that does not judge but rather leads to or points to the saving work of Christ. So Newbigin would say that we should not judge but rather witness faithfully to the truth that has been entrusted to us faithfully by the Christian community. Newbigin points out that the problem with judging is that whenever Jesus refers to who exactly will gain entrance into heaven there is usually an element of surprise. So that means those who judge harshly the eternal future of others should also be worried about their own future (perhaps because they are already in danger of self-righteousness and theological pride). So I think Newbigin's theology of missions and religions does help us today with some of these dilemmas and challenges. I have only begun to unpack some of the richness of Newbigin's thinking on all of this.
Posted in: On Pinning Blame and Human Nature
Thank you Michelle we really need your perspective on these matters. Certainly our Reformed theology points to the depravity of all people and how easy we can be coaxed into evil (the Nazis as an example). It is too easy for us to scapegoat people with mental illness and as the Bell Lets Talk initiative shows, a lot of this is coming to light in the public square and there is much more awareness. Unfortunately there are still a lack of services and treatment in the area of mental health, long wait times for programs such as DBT and other challenges in our health care system on the Canada side. My other comment is that I think we have to start to look at mental illness more as mental health. Just like physical health we are all on a spectrum - some more healthy, some less. I meet few individuals who are 100% healthy mentally from what I can tell. Some practice mental fitness through therapy or medication and that should be encouraged. I wonder if it would decrease stigma if we thought more about a spectrum that we are all on rather than a black and white division between the mentally ill and the mentally well. We all experience the brokenness of this world in different ways and look forward and live forward to the telos of Jesus's coming again.
Posted in: Concerns on Our Ecumenical Trajectory
Thank you for raising this concern. I am not sure a post like this would make it on to the agenda of the EIRC but I will bring it to the attention of one of the members.
Posted in: Where Are the Evangelicals?
Thanks Jason for staying "on topic" and for your thoughts on this. You nail the tension in the universalist approach of some groups. It is important that we can declare Jesus as the way, truth and life. Lesslie Newbiggin is someone who charted an course in interfaith engagement that both did that yet opened the way for the religious other to speak and be heard. One way he did that was by focusing on witnessing rather than judging. I think also the Reformed doctrine of common grace helps us to look for where the Holy Spirit is shining through in other religions while at the same time remembering the antithesis of Romans 1 - that there is demonic subjugation as well - and for sure a human fallen tendency to create idols - but I am not comfortable painting other religious traditions with one brush (all demonic or all true). There is a complex mix - this ministry is messy and I value a place for discussion like this.
Posted in: Where Are the Evangelicals?
Excellent rebuttal Izaak. I am glad to see we are on topic. Not everyone agrees with the doctrine of common grace. I believe the Protestant Reformed Church rejected this doctrine. According to Berkhof's Systematic Theology. Calvin referred to common grace alongside special grace as curbing the destructive power of sin in the world, maintaining a measure of good order in the world as well as a moral order. This doctrine was further developed by Kuyper and Bavinck. Unlike special grace, it doesn't originate in the atoning work of Christ but rather the creation order. It comes from the idea that God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Rom 2:15 talks about knowing God but hindering the truth in unrighteousness. So I think this doctrine can help explain the moral order of other religious traditions. However this is not special or saving grace that can only come through Jesus and in fact the moral order can become an idol in itself (merit based legalism). So I can respect my religious neighbor for his or her charity or devotion to prayer without saying that they have found actual salvation in their religion. I think this is helpful. Perhaps "shining through" was an overstatement. Peaking through maybe. But the light is Jesus - that is something we should emphasize for sure. I hope that makes sense.
Posted in: Where Are the Evangelicals?
Thanks Jason for filling in a little more about common grace. I was mainly thinking of dialogue situations, and civic events like the one referred to in my post. Interfaith worship events are definitely trickier - I don't want to endorse them point blank. I think there are a number of factors that maybe necessitates another post. I do not want to enter into a setting where I appear to be giving allegiance to other belief systems and gods - that would be a more corporate interfaith worship setting. I have from time to time visited the mosque and then prayed quietly in the back in my own way (praying for Jesus to guide me in my visit and be honored in this place). That is a little different. When we are invited to more ceremonial services (that can be considered prayers, etc) after traumatic events in the wider community then we have to prayerfully discern if our presence, as you mention, will be a missional witness to our deep faith in the biblical revelation and a very Christ like desire to build peace and bring healing - or the opposite - that Christians don't really believe in anything because we are so secularlzed. Not easy.
Posted in: Where Are the Evangelicals?
You have some good insights Roger and I understand your position. I noticed this at the Parliament of World Religions as Christianity fit into that community (from my perspective) as an ethical system. This was also the theme of the conference. But it does conveniently avoid the scandal of the cross and salvation through Christ alone. This is a challenge for sure - and your caution about avoiding hypocrisy is important.
One solution that some of my colleagues are experimenting with is Scriptural Reasoning. It allows the dialogue to arise from sacred texts and makes space for each participant to read and explain his or her sacred text. The others listen intently and try to understand. The good thing about this is that all texts are fair game including ones that speak to the uniqueness of the Christian message of salvation by grace (choosing texts is of course up to the discretion of the participants). I think this has potential to both witness clearly to the Gospel yet also contribute to religious harmony. Perhaps we need to be ready to "embarrass" ourselves in such settings.
Posted in: The Great Commission(s)
Good question Larry. Given our current structure I wouldn't recommend merging but we do need to coordinate more, and as a church see social justice as part of the mission of the church. So the Office of Social Justice is part of that, as is World Renew, and Resonate as we minister to the marginalized. That is what I take from the Johannine passage and from Newbigin's reflections on it. To quote him, "The Church is recognizable as the bearer of the Kingdom, the presence of the Kingdom, in so far as it is marked by the scars of the Passion. And the Passion of Jesus is not passive submission to evil, but the price paid for an active challenge to evil." Newbigin was also critical of the church growth movement of Donald McGavran. For Newbigin the purpose of the church was not simply to add new members, but to be the present reality of the reign of God in our local context.