Duane Kelderman

I've always been wary of congregational surveys and you have given me the language to understand my wariness. Thanks! I am equally wary of congregational votes on controversial issues.  I much prefer the deep listening you describe followed by council itself then deciding what they hear the congregation saying. With the deep listening, "over-communicating" every step of the way and caring relationships you describe, council will know the heart of the congregation and be in the best position to name and frame it in ways that the congregation can take constructive next steps, whatever those are.

Couldn't agree more on the leadership challenges we face in training pastors as excellent leaders.  And on some of the negative traits in some pastors.  Pray for Norm Thomasma and Cecil Van Niejenhuis who have to deal with pastor church conflict day and day out. One of the problems is the cycles that develop.  "Hurt people hurt people."  Congregations that have been hurt by a pastor (with the traits you describe above) hurt their next pastor(s).  On the cycle goes.  Duane Kelderman

 Thanks Judy.  I appreciate your fuller explanation of who you are and what you're doing in this area.  I would like to have contact information for you for future reference.  You can send it to me at [email protected] .  (I hope I'm not breaking a rule by putting my email address on line.) 

You mention abuse.  I think we need to unpack a little more the concept of spiritual abuse.  For another time . . . Thanks again, Judy.

Duane

 Thanks, Jim, for this article.  I'm embarrassed I haven't been part of this network conversation up until now.  I'm going to try to stay in touch with it more.  

To those four "c"s you mention--character, conviction, competencies, confluence, I've actually added a fifth.  If you recall, those four "c"s seek to name factors that are present in situations where there is good leadership.  I've come to the conclusion that a fifth factor that is virtually always present in situations of good leadership is Communication.  Leaders who communicate well usually lead well, and vice versa.  And by communicate, I'm thinking of both the quality of communication and the amount of communication.  

It's interesting to me that a guy like Rich DeVos, who is a great leader, virtually equates leadership and communication. Quentin Schultze, Calvin College communications prof, would also keep these two things very closely wed.  

I'll even go out on the limb and say that communication is one of our greatest challenges as leaders today.  Note that I teach leadership at the seminary, was on the taskforce of the document you have been commenting on, have been involved in the creation of the network, and have missed this whole conversation on the Network!  I just joined the Network this morning.   Is that because I'm so irresponsible?  Or because the network is so terrible at getting the word out?  No to both.  We're so overstimulated that very little sticks.  Including our sermons, our vision statements, etc.   But we carry on!!

Thanks for your work on the network!

Duane Kelderman

I'm grateful for the denominational ministry of each one of you.  The call to love in your statement is central to your respective ministries.  You are the hands and feet of Jesus in what you do day in and day out.  And your respective ministries have born good fruit.  Thank you for publicly, humbly reminding us that Jesus' call to love "the other" includes unconditionally loving LGBTQ people.  In these contentious times, it takes real courage for you to do this.  But you are doing exactly what the reports of 1973, 2002, 2016 and 2022 have done.  We'll always have disagreements about what love looks like in particular situations, which is why we need to "bear with one another in love" (Eph. 4:2), but no disagreements about Jesus' call to love.

Thanks, Syd.  

I'd rather talk about the 40 year old mom's cry of the heart.  

It certainly can.  I just think we overestimate how much our preaching connects with people's lives. I thought it was interesting that the post begins with her cry of the heart and then all of a sudden we're talking about lectionary instead of what she might have to teach us about preaching that engages (or doesn't engage) people where they are.  I have no strong opinions about lectionary.  I have very strong opinions that we need to listen to that 40 year old mom a lot more.  I can't put my finger on the data right now, but there has been plenty of survey data over the years to support the assertion that most people do not believe their preacher really understands their life.  That's my concern.  

Thanks for this piece, Sam!  On your last point about the Spirit and Scripture, I'll never forget how Henry Stob put it years ago when he was sitting in the seminary coffee shop with a group of us students.  Between puffs on his Salem menthol, he declared, "The Spirit always rides the back of Scripture."

One of the challenges is getting good data.  "Seminary trained pastors are more effective."  Oh?  Where's the data?  What is your definition of effective?  How do you measure effectiveness?  "People without seminary training do just as well as seminary trained pastors."  Same questions.  Virtually all of our "evidence" for any assertion in this conversation is anecdotal.  

In calling for data, I'm not crticizing anyone for not getting the data.  When I was a member of the Denominational Candidacy Committee we wanted such data, we decided to go after it, and found it to be virtually impossible to get the data.  For a bunch of reasons.  What's the definition of effective?  What measures would you use to define whether someone is effective or ineffective?  Length of time in congregation?  Article 17?  Surveys?  It's virtually impossible to find true measures of ministerial effectiveness (or ineffectiveness)  And then, if we did come up with measures,  try to get people from every classis to send the information needed to start drawing conclusions.  A response rate of over 50% from classes would be considered miraculous.  

So, people have tried to get data, and it hasn't worked, which I understand.  But until we get data, I fear that we're really are just swapping anecdotes that support our prior convictions.  I wish there was a way forward that included some reliable data.

Thanks for this, James.  A wonderful piece.  Your description of the stemwinder and the theological impulses behind that rhetorical style reminds me of three essays Henry Stob wrote in way back in 1952 in which he described the three "minds of the church"--the mind of safety, the mind of militance and the mind of love.  They are timeless essays that still explain so much about the CRC, and, back to your essay, why that rhetorical style worked like a charm.  Thanks again!  Keep writing, my friend.  

More than one leader in the CRC who heard Jamie deliver this speech said afterward, "I've been waiting for twenty years for someone to say this!."   Of course many people say this, often, but Jamie says it embodied in his own particular journey and it's powerful.  Jamie is a great gift to the CRC, not to mention the larger Christian church.