I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
I do try to understand what is driving this, because it is so rampant and the fruit is horrific and includes objectifying women/people, the human trafficking of women and children and many other types of abuse and violence, destroying how we are made in God's image, and so it is not only a holiness issue, but also a justice issue... one possibility for these stats is our lack of listening to the Holy Spirit, 1) because scripture says He will always give us a way out of our temptations, and 2) the Word (Eph 5) says there is not even to be a hint of immorality, and it seems we have just written that off as impossible, so why bother trying since we are "wired" this way... something serious is amiss... and these statistics tell me, somehow we have quenched the Holy Spirit to some debatable degree... I believe we can walk in holiness with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it seems, we don't think it's important, and that could be another reason for these high numbers, we don't understand how important walking in holiness is. is this a popular message? of course not, when we have a significant majority of christian men looking at this on a regular basis, and human tendency is to try and justify it. and doesn't scripture include self control as part of the fruit of the Spirit?
I am trying to understand, over the last several years, I have read "every man's battle" and "the pornography trap" as well as numerous articles and testimonies of people affected by porn. About a year ago, some Christian friends very openly shared with my husband and I, about the husband's struggle with porn and we've witnessed him doing a 180, speaking boldly to other men about this issue as well as other significant changes that he attributes to the Holy Spirit. My husband and I have talked about it often, and I have directly asked him about it, and his response was incredibly beautiful to me (If it's ok with you, i might pass this thread on to both of them and see if they would be willing to write a response from their "guy" perspective as well)... there is hope... but it's through the HOLY Spirit!
I believe this is a spiritual issue... as believers of Jesus Christ, He has made us new creations, and the old is gone and I'm not going to disregard the work He has done in your life or mine, but I'm going to acknowledge Him for what He has done and is doing sanctifying each of us... not saying, we will never struggle with lust, but at this level? many on a daily basis, with addiction rates to match? mmmm... something else is going on here... that indicates no genuine repentance or ????, at least can we agree it indicates something very serious is wrong?
prayer is the first weapon we have, and God reveals His heart to us as we spend time with Him in prayer (and the Word)... can I explain it? how does one explain the Living and active Word of God, infused with the breath of the Holy Spirit... is it "mystical"? not in the sense of eastern mysticism, but yes, in the sense that we can't explain with our intellect and logic how He works... it's super rational, not ir-rational... yes, He does supernaturally break into our lives and make changes... I have had numerous "experiences" that were so powerful and life changing, I cry just thinking about them... He has orchestrated statistically improbable/impossible (ie miraculous) connections and events numerous times as well. There is no way I can deny the Holy Spirit and His life changing work in my life, not only through the "experiences, connections, etc" but also through how He has made His Word Living and Active...
I understand our denomination does not have a great historical tradition when it comes to the Holy Spirit (we were cessationist on paper until 1973, when it was refuted by Synod on paper, but not so much in practice, and we are still struggling in this area, if we will be honest about it). Several books that helped me were Jack Deere's Surprised by the Voice of God and Surprised by the Power of the Spirit... Jack has a cessationist background, so we can relate to that... (quick disclaimer, read it with discernment, as at least one of the people he mentions have had some serious moral issues since the books were written). Just yesterday someone alerted me to a book called "Holy Fire" by RT Kendall... that will be one of my next readings...
I think one of the ways to fight this thing is to get a better understanding of the Holy Spirit, hungering for God and His Word. I feel I've only scratched the surface so far in my journey and for the last 7 years or so, the Holy Spirit has been one of the primary focuses of my studying and discussions with people and I will testify that Scripture has become significantly more living and active in the last 7 years than I had ever experienced in the 25 years before that. I've been very blessed in how God has connected me with other believers from different Christian "streams" to help me grow in this, but it will always take discernment and knowing His Word and spending time with Him.
one more point for now (and by the way, thanks for being willing to engage in discussion... I truly believe iron sharpens iron, and sometimes we avoid doing so because we don't want to offend anyone)... that was a great point that sin in general objectifies people, I had never thought of that before... however, I will submit that porn has a way of doing so at a far more rapid pace (which leads to abuse and violence), and there have been studies to show this.
and here's an article from 2012 as one example of some of the material I've read on this... and it's written by a guy who has worked with these types of issues for 20 years...
wow, that convinced me even more that it's the Holy Spirit and prayer over the suggestions you listed, they sound like man's ways/our own understanding... God's ways are good and beautiful, even if we don't understand them (I think of Prov 3:5-6/Is 55:9-10)... one of the prayers I pray often is from Eph 1 open the eyes (spiritual senses) our our hearts... we need our spiritual eyes and ears open to hear Him and see the world through His eyes... when our spiritual senses are awakened, sensitive to Him, our entire perspective changes... everyone is beautiful, no matter how the world "labels/views" them... because we are all God's creation made in His image... I "experienced" seeing people through "God's eyes" to some extent for about one year - I remember exactly when and where it started - it was profound, however, over time, it shifted back to "normal"... now i have to be intentional about seeing everyone as beautiful and recognizing the potential He has given to each person, which is fine, I'm very thankful I had that experience to help me better understand how God sees us... it gave me a glimpse of His heart for people, but also recognizing how the enemy tries to steal the potential God gave us.
another prayer is for a spiritual hunger to know Him more... Taste and see that the Lord is good... I hunger after Him, I relate to the cry in Psalm 84 where the psalmist says "my heart and flesh cry out for the living God..., better is one day in your courts than a 1000 elsewhere" and in Psalm 40 where the deer longs for water, so my soul longs for God... once we have tasted Him, we want more... nothing else will satisfy... including our fleshly desires... we sell ourselves way short when we try to satisfy ourselves through earthly pleasure (not saying they are all wrong, just saying they don't compare). One caveat, God responds differently if we are just looking for the "experience" or if we are truly seeking Him... I discovered that some are looking for the spiritual experience, not God necessarily, and then you get into really weird stuff and open yourself up to all kinds of counterfeit garbage (the enemy loves to deceive)...
I know God can "speak" to anyone, anyway, any time (and yes, He speaks through people - which is the prophetic)... Scripture is His primary way, and His "message" will always line up with His word (if it doesn't, it's not Him)... One other book that is my main go to guide on hearing God is "Can you hear Me? Tuning in to the God Who speaks" by Brad Jersak... The weekend I got that book, my entire prayer life shifted (not just because of the book, but also because of a sequence of "hearing God" very specifically emphasizing the prayer "open the eyes of my heart" - my "experience" of seeing through God's eyes happened 4 weeks later). My life has been profoundly affected since then... that weekend was when Scripture became Living and Active at a whole new level for me... before that prayer had mostly been a one way monologue (with some exception)... after that weekend... wow. God transformed my prayer life and my faith... it hasn't been easy... with the cessationist strain still in the crc, it's tended to be seen by some as heretical and gets dismissed or worse... but i would not and can not go back ... it is my heart's desire that all would "see and hear" Him to know Him more through our spiritual senses... nothing compares to Him... He alone is worthy of our worship and obedience... this is His due... pursue Him with all our hearts... as King David wrote... one thing I ask of the LORD, this is what I seek; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the BEAUTY of the Lord and to seek Him in His temple. That is one of my prayers for the Kingdom Church.
Thanks again for responding Roger... I do believe this issue deserves our attention and discussion and appreciate your willingness to continue the dialogue here... I agree that there will be "concrete" tools that we can use to help resist the temptation... I agree we are called to be "separate" or holy... we will "look" different than the world, to be in the world, but not of the world... and yes, I agree that Christian women have a responsibility to dress modestly and that has not been the case too often as well... but to place the blame for a porn struggle on outside influences is missing the personal responsibility each of us has been given. I don't think we will find healing until we own our part (free will) in it.
I believe it is the Holy Spirit Who gives each person the "concrete tool" they need to resist their temptation. For any struggle, including porn, it is not a one size fits all. Everyone's struggle is different to some degree, what started it, what triggers it, the emotional/psychological stuff that goes with it, etc.... the Holy Spirit as the Counselor knows precisely what "tool/s" is most effective for each person, for each struggle... and that's why I emphasize the Holy Spirit... many times it might be the same "tool" that works for different people... yes, it might be drastic, such as getting rid of the smart phone and going back to an "old fashioned" non data type phone... it might be limiting the internet access to the 10-20 sites for paying bills and reading the crcna network ;)... it might be adding covenant eyes or a similar app to whatever technology we use, it might be that the spouse has the passwords and you don't know what they are (we do this with our kids)... for some it might be rehab... but until we know how to discern and test the Holy Spirit, or even recognize how He leads us, our solutions will primarily be man's way... (can He lead us without our knowing how to listen to Him? of course He can and He does because God is good and generous and gracious, but there is something that happens when we intentionally seek His leading and acknowledge His ways, He uses it to grow our faith exponentially)
until we are serious about wanting to change and recognize the horrible fruit that is caused by porn (or any sin), realizing that we are contributing to that when we look at porn (or even just by tolerating it- I think of Rev 2 where Jesus says nevertheless, I have this against you, that you tolerate jezebel and her pornea), and that we are called to walk in the holiness/righteousness that Jesus gave to us through His suffering - He deserves our obedience because He is worthy, none of these "tools" will be as effective without the Holy Spirit's leading in our lives... not saying they can't work to some degree without Him, but they will be far more effective with His leading...
I read that some non-Christians are trying to quit porn because they are finding out it has seriously affected their sex lives in real life... that's the reason that they are desperate enough to stop... I would think that as believers we would be desperate enough for many other reasons as well.
(getting back to the original thread =) Maybe I'm wrong, but I see some hypocrisy when we tell people as a justice issue, we should only drink "free trade" coffee, and yet (as a justice issue) we don't let people know that porn contributes to human trafficking, so don't look at porn! let alone for all the other "bad fruit" reasons!
one of the areas I struggle with on this is we like to "be prophetic critics of the waste, injustice, and selfishness in our society,..." (Ordination of elders and deacons, GPH p1005), that's cool, relevant, makes us (the Church) look good and it's "safe"... however, if we actually follow the biblical charge from Paul in I Cor 5:12 to judge inside the church and not outside, this statement is exactly backwards... we are actually called to be prophetic critics of the injustice in the Church, (of course starting with ourselves with the help of the Holy Spirit)... and as you suggested, this doesn't go over well.... at all! because we/the Church will not look good...
here's a quote from Global trauma recovery website: BOQ It is a sad fact that many organizations (church/denom), when faced with the choice of protecting an abusive leader or victim, choose to protect the leader (and thus the organization) rather than the victims of that abuse. All too often, victims report that the failure of the system to respond well to their cries for help cause more harm than the original abuse. EOQ
so not only is the Church not helping the person who has been "oppressed"/victimized, too many times, we are actually making it worse and become part of the problem. The response of the Church is even worse to the victim, when leadership feels threatened over the exposure of the ungodly conduct.
when this ungodly behavior is threatened to be exposed in the Church, instead of transparency, we find secrecy, silence, and cover up, instead of integrity, we find manipulation, intimidation and deception (it's often very subtle ie...technically not a lie, but effectively very misleading), and instead of purity, we find abusive type behaviors including emotional and spiritual abuse to shun, dismiss, etc those who have been hurt or much worse because of the ungodly behavior... i could list numerous examples of this unbiblical response in the Church, including our beloved crc... and i find that is what people outside the church see very clearly... we are only fooling ourselves, not God, and not those outside the Church...
God calls us His people to humble ourselves, pray, seek His face and turn from our wicked ways.... He did not give this charge to the world/unbelievers, but to us, His people.
a quote from the following website dealing with abuse in the church:
http://globaltraumarecovery.org/
It is a sad fact that many organizations, when faced with the choice of protecting an abusive leader or victim, choose to protect the leader (and thus the organization) rather than the victims of that abuse. All too often, victims report that the failure of the system to respond well to their cries for help cause more harm than the original abuse.
I wrote this a few nights ago... the idea started after seeing the warning at the beginning of a movie... "piracy is not a victimless crime"... then later when i went to bed, the idea expanded into this telegram format... I put the original text of the "message" in the old fashioned courier style which did not copy to this comment...
TELEGRAM
URGENT
Pornography is not a victimless activity (Stop)
It hurts God (Stop)
It hurts you (Stop)
It hurts your family (Stop)
It hurts your friends and associates (Stop)
It hurts those who are involved in making the pornography (Stop)
It hurts the women and children enslaved in sex trafficking due to fueling the lust for selfish pleasure (Stop)
But while the culture wars rage on and draw the most attention, Lambert argued that the greatest moral threat to the church today is “the Christian pastor, the Christian school teacher, the Christian Bible college and seminary student, who exalts sound theology, who points to the Bible and then retreats to the basement computer to indulge in an hour or three of Internet pornography.”
and some of the comments are also very disturbing...
"Jesus’ way is the exact opposite of abuse." Amen, preach it sister... that line made me cry, because I've made a similar statment: we/the Church are doing exactly the opposite of what the Bible tells us when it comes to abuse and sexual immorality... I pray for the Church to step up and out, to walk in the potential God designed for her... being transparent and open, and humble, and honest, then, He will open the doors to bring healing through the Church...
I agree there is much potential, but we have to be willing to lose our lives (taking the risk to confess, repent, be honest and open, etc. ) first... and that's where it seems we get stuck... we don't understand and/or we refuse to acknowledge/recognize/admit it's the only way we can move forward... when in God's greater reality, it's the safest thing we can do, because it's God's way... He promises when we confess our sins TO ONE ANOTHER, that opens the door for healing (James 5)... and I have witnessed that and read testimonies that affirm that... it's a step of faith, and might feel like we are stepping off a cliff ( think of Indiana jones when he's going after the holy grail and he takes the step out into thin air, and there's an unseen rock bridge that blends in and so is invisible, but it's there!)
anyway... until there is significant, specific, transparent repentance (not some fairly safe, controlled, generic blanket statement acknowledging that we've messed up here and there, that just doesn't cut it or even come close)... I think the healing we experience in the Church will be limited... are we willing to lose our lives/reputation? are we willing to lay down our lives for those who have been hurt by/in the Church? somewhere I read, God's not worried about His reputation... the excuse of protecting reputation is a cop out by the leaders to justify cover up for each other... and it's the opposite of what Jesus did!
I know it's huge... and definitely not victimless... just the tip of the porn iceberg is horrific... a friend recently shared Mark Driscoll's book "a call to resurgence" with me, and in it, he gives a list of some of the consequences which include the ones you mention, and again, this list is just the tip:
Objectification of women
lack of intimacy with spouse
no need to marry
couples who watch porn together and each fantasize about other people
promotes sex trafficking and abuse, especially of women and children (I would hope this would appall anyone enough to be so horrified that they would never want to view porn again, they are all horrible, but I would pray no one would want to be connected at all to this type of evil)
contributes to sexual sin in ALL forms
downplays severity of sexual sin
deteriorates ability to be faithful and content in marriage, which opens the door to lots more issues with children, relationships, etc.
corrupts relationship between parents and children
(paraphrased list from A call to Resurgence; mark Driscoll; 2013; Tyndale; p54-57
What do you mean by OK?
so does having a culture where it's OK for pastors to be honest about their struggle with porn, mean that we are saying they don't have to worry about losing their job, that we will be ok with leaving them in leadership? do we really think it's ok, for our spiritual leaders to stay in leadership if porn is an issue for them? do we think they are still qualified to lead? is that biblical? Do we not view porn the same as adultery, even though that’s Jesus perspective in matthew 5? Why or why not? Why are the leaders so fearful? are they fighting tooth and nail, like the Catholic church to keep it covered up, because it's so pervasive? is it possible we could have half (or more) of our leaders that should consider stepping down from leadership if the statistics are at all accurate? ... is this issue so HUGE, that’s why leaders are afraid to even begin to address it, because it would mean that maybe 50+% would lose their positions of leadership, including themselves? are we downplaying how horrible porn is? I'm asking, because I'm stunned at how poorly the church has so far addressed this and would like to understand what is going on that this HUGE issue keeps getting covered up by the Church leaders… Do we think God is ok, with how the Church has responded so far?
...because at this point, doesn't it seem we are helping the enemy out because keeping it secret and hidden, in the dark – including through lies and deception, which is in agreement with the enemy's ways, (John 3 & 8) but God's way is bringing sin into the light, transparent truth (Eph 5), which doesn’t seem to be what we are doing? Am I wrong? I really struggle with understanding the fear, why are they so fearful? that indicates a number of things, including lack of trusting God with His ways, and much worse...
Again, we all must be willing to lose our life/job/reputation for His sake, then we will find it... that's God's way... hard? yes, but spiritually healthy per scripture! One article says statistically, only 1% voluntarily share their struggle with porn, the rest get found out. here's the link to a disturbing article on that... I think i've posted this one before on another response... but it's worth a re-read... http://blogs.christianpost.com/guest-views/sexual-sin-in-the-ministry-8613/
if it's child porn they are looking at, then they are definitely beyond any question not qualified, and I hope that would not even be a question... even the secular world, thank God, recognizes that as very sick and very wrong... so don't we see that when one is into porn, they are going to get more and more depraved and it tends to suck them into illegal child porn? That will ruin your very life quickly, when it's found out...
again, I will add a warning, the reading the article could trigger responses connected with abuse... porn is evil, and especially horrific when kids are involved... and so the related articles are tough reads...
God help us, His Bride, to be holy as He is holy...
the Church has a responsibility to protect others from being abused by the same person, especially if it's a spiritual leader, no matter how repentant and forgiven the offender/leader is, and that will include being disqualified (as long as you are crc?) from certain levels of leadership which hold significant levels of authority and trust by people. I am encouraged that classis Toronto made this decision and are sending a latter of regret for what this person had to go through (again). It's a start/step, and has helped bring a significant issue into the light... so, as others have mentioned, what now, to prevent similar situations from happening... including preventing the abuse happening in the first place!
Ezekiel 34 has been heavy on my heart for the last several years as more and more abuse by leadership situations come to my attention ... v 16 talks about those (fat and strong) who have sought their own welfare at the expense of others, and v 17 is about rams and goats (people of power/wealth) who oppress the sheep... v21 talks about the weak sheep (victims) being shoved and driven out by the fat sheep (those in power)... sounds like shunning to me... and lines up with Rachel's comment how someone said that she can never go to church again as she received hate from some for speaking out, and they made her feel like a horrible person...
Church, we are called to much higher standards of holiness... from a number of abusive situations that have been shared with me, the response from Church leadership has not been acceptable, and that includes the crc, so it is encouraging to see Classis Toronto step up with this righteous decision. It's way past time... this case took a year, there are others that have been going on considerably longer... or the person gave up, because it was so painful and traumatizing and continued to be abusive from the leadership's resistance to it being exposed.
Both are biblical, I do find it amusing/interesting that in our tradition of being averse to spiritual experiences to some debatable extent, someone FELT it necessary to change the phrase about how we feel... curious how that came up... that would be interesting to know...
This reminds me of a similar hymn that has also been altered in the 1987 crc psalter... Spirit of God Descend UPON My Heart to Spirit of God Dwell Thou WITHIN My Heart... both versions are biblically correct but speak to 2 different ways the Holy Spirit works... He dwells WITHIN us as believers and also comes UPON people
for times of special anointing for specific seasons, times of ministry, ie revival.
Another phrase in that song was also changed, from the "baptism of the Heaven descended Dove" to the "fullness of the Heaven descended Dove". This would be an interesting discussion as well, as it seems there are several understandings of "the baptism of the Spirit" and that is a concept Jesus mentions in Acts 1:5... for some reason this phrase was changed... again both are biblical, but I find it interesting as our theology of the Holy Spirit has been somewhat limited historically due to our traditional belief of cessationism.
and verse 2 of the Spirit of God song... i have rewritten that verse to a positive based on Paul's charge to us in I Cor 14:1... I ask FOR dreams and prophet ecstasies... etc.... AND take the dimness of my soul away. So if we sing v2 in church or anywhere I sing the positive version.
Posted in: Hypocrisy
I do try to understand what is driving this, because it is so rampant and the fruit is horrific and includes objectifying women/people, the human trafficking of women and children and many other types of abuse and violence, destroying how we are made in God's image, and so it is not only a holiness issue, but also a justice issue... one possibility for these stats is our lack of listening to the Holy Spirit, 1) because scripture says He will always give us a way out of our temptations, and 2) the Word (Eph 5) says there is not even to be a hint of immorality, and it seems we have just written that off as impossible, so why bother trying since we are "wired" this way... something serious is amiss... and these statistics tell me, somehow we have quenched the Holy Spirit to some debatable degree... I believe we can walk in holiness with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it seems, we don't think it's important, and that could be another reason for these high numbers, we don't understand how important walking in holiness is. is this a popular message? of course not, when we have a significant majority of christian men looking at this on a regular basis, and human tendency is to try and justify it. and doesn't scripture include self control as part of the fruit of the Spirit?
Posted in: Hypocrisy
I am trying to understand, over the last several years, I have read "every man's battle" and "the pornography trap" as well as numerous articles and testimonies of people affected by porn. About a year ago, some Christian friends very openly shared with my husband and I, about the husband's struggle with porn and we've witnessed him doing a 180, speaking boldly to other men about this issue as well as other significant changes that he attributes to the Holy Spirit. My husband and I have talked about it often, and I have directly asked him about it, and his response was incredibly beautiful to me (If it's ok with you, i might pass this thread on to both of them and see if they would be willing to write a response from their "guy" perspective as well)... there is hope... but it's through the HOLY Spirit!
I believe this is a spiritual issue... as believers of Jesus Christ, He has made us new creations, and the old is gone and I'm not going to disregard the work He has done in your life or mine, but I'm going to acknowledge Him for what He has done and is doing sanctifying each of us... not saying, we will never struggle with lust, but at this level? many on a daily basis, with addiction rates to match? mmmm... something else is going on here... that indicates no genuine repentance or ????, at least can we agree it indicates something very serious is wrong?
prayer is the first weapon we have, and God reveals His heart to us as we spend time with Him in prayer (and the Word)... can I explain it? how does one explain the Living and active Word of God, infused with the breath of the Holy Spirit... is it "mystical"? not in the sense of eastern mysticism, but yes, in the sense that we can't explain with our intellect and logic how He works... it's super rational, not ir-rational... yes, He does supernaturally break into our lives and make changes... I have had numerous "experiences" that were so powerful and life changing, I cry just thinking about them... He has orchestrated statistically improbable/impossible (ie miraculous) connections and events numerous times as well. There is no way I can deny the Holy Spirit and His life changing work in my life, not only through the "experiences, connections, etc" but also through how He has made His Word Living and Active...
I understand our denomination does not have a great historical tradition when it comes to the Holy Spirit (we were cessationist on paper until 1973, when it was refuted by Synod on paper, but not so much in practice, and we are still struggling in this area, if we will be honest about it). Several books that helped me were Jack Deere's Surprised by the Voice of God and Surprised by the Power of the Spirit... Jack has a cessationist background, so we can relate to that... (quick disclaimer, read it with discernment, as at least one of the people he mentions have had some serious moral issues since the books were written). Just yesterday someone alerted me to a book called "Holy Fire" by RT Kendall... that will be one of my next readings...
I think one of the ways to fight this thing is to get a better understanding of the Holy Spirit, hungering for God and His Word. I feel I've only scratched the surface so far in my journey and for the last 7 years or so, the Holy Spirit has been one of the primary focuses of my studying and discussions with people and I will testify that Scripture has become significantly more living and active in the last 7 years than I had ever experienced in the 25 years before that. I've been very blessed in how God has connected me with other believers from different Christian "streams" to help me grow in this, but it will always take discernment and knowing His Word and spending time with Him.
one more point for now (and by the way, thanks for being willing to engage in discussion... I truly believe iron sharpens iron, and sometimes we avoid doing so because we don't want to offend anyone)... that was a great point that sin in general objectifies people, I had never thought of that before... however, I will submit that porn has a way of doing so at a far more rapid pace (which leads to abuse and violence), and there have been studies to show this.
and here's an article from 2012 as one example of some of the material I've read on this... and it's written by a guy who has worked with these types of issues for 20 years...
http://blogs.christianpost.com/guest-views/sexual-sin-in-the-ministry-8613/
again, thank you for being will to share your thoughts... this is a HUGE issue, and so, yup, the responses get long...
Posted in: Hypocrisy
wow, that convinced me even more that it's the Holy Spirit and prayer over the suggestions you listed, they sound like man's ways/our own understanding... God's ways are good and beautiful, even if we don't understand them (I think of Prov 3:5-6/Is 55:9-10)... one of the prayers I pray often is from Eph 1 open the eyes (spiritual senses) our our hearts... we need our spiritual eyes and ears open to hear Him and see the world through His eyes... when our spiritual senses are awakened, sensitive to Him, our entire perspective changes... everyone is beautiful, no matter how the world "labels/views" them... because we are all God's creation made in His image... I "experienced" seeing people through "God's eyes" to some extent for about one year - I remember exactly when and where it started - it was profound, however, over time, it shifted back to "normal"... now i have to be intentional about seeing everyone as beautiful and recognizing the potential He has given to each person, which is fine, I'm very thankful I had that experience to help me better understand how God sees us... it gave me a glimpse of His heart for people, but also recognizing how the enemy tries to steal the potential God gave us.
another prayer is for a spiritual hunger to know Him more... Taste and see that the Lord is good... I hunger after Him, I relate to the cry in Psalm 84 where the psalmist says "my heart and flesh cry out for the living God..., better is one day in your courts than a 1000 elsewhere" and in Psalm 40 where the deer longs for water, so my soul longs for God... once we have tasted Him, we want more... nothing else will satisfy... including our fleshly desires... we sell ourselves way short when we try to satisfy ourselves through earthly pleasure (not saying they are all wrong, just saying they don't compare). One caveat, God responds differently if we are just looking for the "experience" or if we are truly seeking Him... I discovered that some are looking for the spiritual experience, not God necessarily, and then you get into really weird stuff and open yourself up to all kinds of counterfeit garbage (the enemy loves to deceive)...
I know God can "speak" to anyone, anyway, any time (and yes, He speaks through people - which is the prophetic)... Scripture is His primary way, and His "message" will always line up with His word (if it doesn't, it's not Him)... One other book that is my main go to guide on hearing God is "Can you hear Me? Tuning in to the God Who speaks" by Brad Jersak... The weekend I got that book, my entire prayer life shifted (not just because of the book, but also because of a sequence of "hearing God" very specifically emphasizing the prayer "open the eyes of my heart" - my "experience" of seeing through God's eyes happened 4 weeks later). My life has been profoundly affected since then... that weekend was when Scripture became Living and Active at a whole new level for me... before that prayer had mostly been a one way monologue (with some exception)... after that weekend... wow. God transformed my prayer life and my faith... it hasn't been easy... with the cessationist strain still in the crc, it's tended to be seen by some as heretical and gets dismissed or worse... but i would not and can not go back ... it is my heart's desire that all would "see and hear" Him to know Him more through our spiritual senses... nothing compares to Him... He alone is worthy of our worship and obedience... this is His due... pursue Him with all our hearts... as King David wrote... one thing I ask of the LORD, this is what I seek; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the BEAUTY of the Lord and to seek Him in His temple. That is one of my prayers for the Kingdom Church.
hope that makes sense ;) in a spiritual way!
Posted in: Hypocrisy
Thanks again for responding Roger... I do believe this issue deserves our attention and discussion and appreciate your willingness to continue the dialogue here... I agree that there will be "concrete" tools that we can use to help resist the temptation... I agree we are called to be "separate" or holy... we will "look" different than the world, to be in the world, but not of the world... and yes, I agree that Christian women have a responsibility to dress modestly and that has not been the case too often as well... but to place the blame for a porn struggle on outside influences is missing the personal responsibility each of us has been given. I don't think we will find healing until we own our part (free will) in it.
I believe it is the Holy Spirit Who gives each person the "concrete tool" they need to resist their temptation. For any struggle, including porn, it is not a one size fits all. Everyone's struggle is different to some degree, what started it, what triggers it, the emotional/psychological stuff that goes with it, etc.... the Holy Spirit as the Counselor knows precisely what "tool/s" is most effective for each person, for each struggle... and that's why I emphasize the Holy Spirit... many times it might be the same "tool" that works for different people... yes, it might be drastic, such as getting rid of the smart phone and going back to an "old fashioned" non data type phone... it might be limiting the internet access to the 10-20 sites for paying bills and reading the crcna network ;)... it might be adding covenant eyes or a similar app to whatever technology we use, it might be that the spouse has the passwords and you don't know what they are (we do this with our kids)... for some it might be rehab... but until we know how to discern and test the Holy Spirit, or even recognize how He leads us, our solutions will primarily be man's way... (can He lead us without our knowing how to listen to Him? of course He can and He does because God is good and generous and gracious, but there is something that happens when we intentionally seek His leading and acknowledge His ways, He uses it to grow our faith exponentially)
until we are serious about wanting to change and recognize the horrible fruit that is caused by porn (or any sin), realizing that we are contributing to that when we look at porn (or even just by tolerating it- I think of Rev 2 where Jesus says nevertheless, I have this against you, that you tolerate jezebel and her pornea), and that we are called to walk in the holiness/righteousness that Jesus gave to us through His suffering - He deserves our obedience because He is worthy, none of these "tools" will be as effective without the Holy Spirit's leading in our lives... not saying they can't work to some degree without Him, but they will be far more effective with His leading...
I read that some non-Christians are trying to quit porn because they are finding out it has seriously affected their sex lives in real life... that's the reason that they are desperate enough to stop... I would think that as believers we would be desperate enough for many other reasons as well.
(getting back to the original thread =) Maybe I'm wrong, but I see some hypocrisy when we tell people as a justice issue, we should only drink "free trade" coffee, and yet (as a justice issue) we don't let people know that porn contributes to human trafficking, so don't look at porn! let alone for all the other "bad fruit" reasons!
Posted in: Hypocrisy
one of the areas I struggle with on this is we like to "be prophetic critics of the waste, injustice, and selfishness in our society,..." (Ordination of elders and deacons, GPH p1005), that's cool, relevant, makes us (the Church) look good and it's "safe"... however, if we actually follow the biblical charge from Paul in I Cor 5:12 to judge inside the church and not outside, this statement is exactly backwards... we are actually called to be prophetic critics of the injustice in the Church, (of course starting with ourselves with the help of the Holy Spirit)... and as you suggested, this doesn't go over well.... at all! because we/the Church will not look good...
here's a quote from Global trauma recovery website:
BOQ It is a sad fact that many organizations (church/denom), when faced with the choice of protecting an abusive leader or victim, choose to protect the leader (and thus the organization) rather than the victims of that abuse. All too often, victims report that the failure of the system to respond well to their cries for help cause more harm than the original abuse. EOQ
so not only is the Church not helping the person who has been "oppressed"/victimized, too many times, we are actually making it worse and become part of the problem. The response of the Church is even worse to the victim, when leadership feels threatened over the exposure of the ungodly conduct.
when this ungodly behavior is threatened to be exposed in the Church, instead of transparency, we find secrecy, silence, and cover up, instead of integrity, we find manipulation, intimidation and deception (it's often very subtle ie...technically not a lie, but effectively very misleading), and instead of purity, we find abusive type behaviors including emotional and spiritual abuse to shun, dismiss, etc those who have been hurt or much worse because of the ungodly behavior... i could list numerous examples of this unbiblical response in the Church, including our beloved crc... and i find that is what people outside the church see very clearly... we are only fooling ourselves, not God, and not those outside the Church...
God calls us His people to humble ourselves, pray, seek His face and turn from our wicked ways.... He did not give this charge to the world/unbelievers, but to us, His people.
Posted in: Consider Our Response
a quote from the following website dealing with abuse in the church:
http://globaltraumarecovery.org/
It is a sad fact that many organizations, when faced with the choice of protecting an abusive leader or victim, choose to protect the leader (and thus the organization) rather than the victims of that abuse. All too often, victims report that the failure of the system to respond well to their cries for help cause more harm than the original abuse.
Posted in: Reflections on an Event
I wrote this a few nights ago... the idea started after seeing the warning at the beginning of a movie... "piracy is not a victimless crime"... then later when i went to bed, the idea expanded into this telegram format... I put the original text of the "message" in the old fashioned courier style which did not copy to this comment...
TELEGRAM
URGENT
Pornography is not a victimless activity (Stop)
It hurts God (Stop)
It hurts you (Stop)
It hurts your family (Stop)
It hurts your friends and associates (Stop)
It hurts those who are involved in making the pornography (Stop)
It hurts the women and children enslaved in sex trafficking due to fueling the lust for selfish pleasure (Stop)
Please (Stop)
Posted in: The Price of Porn
here's a recent article (warning: possible trigger for those who have been abused or affected by porn)...
there's a lot of work that still needs to be done by the Church in this area.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tmatt/2014/05/porn-again-facing-denial-in-conservative-pews/
very disturbing quote from article:
But while the culture wars rage on and draw the most attention, Lambert argued that the greatest moral threat to the church today is “the Christian pastor, the Christian school teacher, the Christian Bible college and seminary student, who exalts sound theology, who points to the Bible and then retreats to the basement computer to indulge in an hour or three of Internet pornography.”
and some of the comments are also very disturbing...
Posted in: Ministry "Speed Dating"
"Jesus’ way is the exact opposite of abuse." Amen, preach it sister... that line made me cry, because I've made a similar statment: we/the Church are doing exactly the opposite of what the Bible tells us when it comes to abuse and sexual immorality... I pray for the Church to step up and out, to walk in the potential God designed for her... being transparent and open, and humble, and honest, then, He will open the doors to bring healing through the Church...
I agree there is much potential, but we have to be willing to lose our lives (taking the risk to confess, repent, be honest and open, etc. ) first... and that's where it seems we get stuck... we don't understand and/or we refuse to acknowledge/recognize/admit it's the only way we can move forward... when in God's greater reality, it's the safest thing we can do, because it's God's way... He promises when we confess our sins TO ONE ANOTHER, that opens the door for healing (James 5)... and I have witnessed that and read testimonies that affirm that... it's a step of faith, and might feel like we are stepping off a cliff ( think of Indiana jones when he's going after the holy grail and he takes the step out into thin air, and there's an unseen rock bridge that blends in and so is invisible, but it's there!)
anyway... until there is significant, specific, transparent repentance (not some fairly safe, controlled, generic blanket statement acknowledging that we've messed up here and there, that just doesn't cut it or even come close)... I think the healing we experience in the Church will be limited... are we willing to lose our lives/reputation? are we willing to lay down our lives for those who have been hurt by/in the Church? somewhere I read, God's not worried about His reputation... the excuse of protecting reputation is a cop out by the leaders to justify cover up for each other... and it's the opposite of what Jesus did!
Posted in: The Price of Porn
I know it's huge... and definitely not victimless... just the tip of the porn iceberg is horrific... a friend recently shared Mark Driscoll's book "a call to resurgence" with me, and in it, he gives a list of some of the consequences which include the ones you mention, and again, this list is just the tip:
Objectification of women
lack of intimacy with spouse
no need to marry
couples who watch porn together and each fantasize about other people
promotes sex trafficking and abuse, especially of women and children (I would hope this would appall anyone enough to be so horrified that they would never want to view porn again, they are all horrible, but I would pray no one would want to be connected at all to this type of evil)
contributes to sexual sin in ALL forms
downplays severity of sexual sin
deteriorates ability to be faithful and content in marriage, which opens the door to lots more issues with children, relationships, etc.
corrupts relationship between parents and children
(paraphrased list from A call to Resurgence; mark Driscoll; 2013; Tyndale; p54-57
What do you mean by OK?
so does having a culture where it's OK for pastors to be honest about their struggle with porn, mean that we are saying they don't have to worry about losing their job, that we will be ok with leaving them in leadership? do we really think it's ok, for our spiritual leaders to stay in leadership if porn is an issue for them? do we think they are still qualified to lead? is that biblical? Do we not view porn the same as adultery, even though that’s Jesus perspective in matthew 5? Why or why not? Why are the leaders so fearful? are they fighting tooth and nail, like the Catholic church to keep it covered up, because it's so pervasive? is it possible we could have half (or more) of our leaders that should consider stepping down from leadership if the statistics are at all accurate? ... is this issue so HUGE, that’s why leaders are afraid to even begin to address it, because it would mean that maybe 50+% would lose their positions of leadership, including themselves? are we downplaying how horrible porn is? I'm asking, because I'm stunned at how poorly the church has so far addressed this and would like to understand what is going on that this HUGE issue keeps getting covered up by the Church leaders… Do we think God is ok, with how the Church has responded so far?
...because at this point, doesn't it seem we are helping the enemy out because keeping it secret and hidden, in the dark – including through lies and deception, which is in agreement with the enemy's ways, (John 3 & 8) but God's way is bringing sin into the light, transparent truth (Eph 5), which doesn’t seem to be what we are doing? Am I wrong? I really struggle with understanding the fear, why are they so fearful? that indicates a number of things, including lack of trusting God with His ways, and much worse...
Again, we all must be willing to lose our life/job/reputation for His sake, then we will find it... that's God's way... hard? yes, but spiritually healthy per scripture! One article says statistically, only 1% voluntarily share their struggle with porn, the rest get found out. here's the link to a disturbing article on that... I think i've posted this one before on another response... but it's worth a re-read... http://blogs.christianpost.com/guest-views/sexual-sin-in-the-ministry-8613/
if it's child porn they are looking at, then they are definitely beyond any question not qualified, and I hope that would not even be a question... even the secular world, thank God, recognizes that as very sick and very wrong... so don't we see that when one is into porn, they are going to get more and more depraved and it tends to suck them into illegal child porn? That will ruin your very life quickly, when it's found out...
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/dozens-charged-in-child-porn-case-in-nyc-area
again, I will add a warning, the reading the article could trigger responses connected with abuse... porn is evil, and especially horrific when kids are involved... and so the related articles are tough reads...
God help us, His Bride, to be holy as He is holy...
Posted in: Banner Article Highlights Need for Accountability
the Church has a responsibility to protect others from being abused by the same person, especially if it's a spiritual leader, no matter how repentant and forgiven the offender/leader is, and that will include being disqualified (as long as you are crc?) from certain levels of leadership which hold significant levels of authority and trust by people. I am encouraged that classis Toronto made this decision and are sending a latter of regret for what this person had to go through (again). It's a start/step, and has helped bring a significant issue into the light... so, as others have mentioned, what now, to prevent similar situations from happening... including preventing the abuse happening in the first place!
Ezekiel 34 has been heavy on my heart for the last several years as more and more abuse by leadership situations come to my attention ... v 16 talks about those (fat and strong) who have sought their own welfare at the expense of others, and v 17 is about rams and goats (people of power/wealth) who oppress the sheep... v21 talks about the weak sheep (victims) being shoved and driven out by the fat sheep (those in power)... sounds like shunning to me... and lines up with Rachel's comment how someone said that she can never go to church again as she received hate from some for speaking out, and they made her feel like a horrible person...
Church, we are called to much higher standards of holiness... from a number of abusive situations that have been shared with me, the response from Church leadership has not been acceptable, and that includes the crc, so it is encouraging to see Classis Toronto step up with this righteous decision. It's way past time... this case took a year, there are others that have been going on considerably longer... or the person gave up, because it was so painful and traumatizing and continued to be abusive from the leadership's resistance to it being exposed.
Posted in: Theology in Song: Dwell in Me, O Blessed Spirit
Both are biblical, I do find it amusing/interesting that in our tradition of being averse to spiritual experiences to some debatable extent, someone FELT it necessary to change the phrase about how we feel... curious how that came up... that would be interesting to know...
This reminds me of a similar hymn that has also been altered in the 1987 crc psalter... Spirit of God Descend UPON My Heart to Spirit of God Dwell Thou WITHIN My Heart... both versions are biblically correct but speak to 2 different ways the Holy Spirit works... He dwells WITHIN us as believers and also comes UPON people
for times of special anointing for specific seasons, times of ministry, ie revival.
Another phrase in that song was also changed, from the "baptism of the Heaven descended Dove" to the "fullness of the Heaven descended Dove". This would be an interesting discussion as well, as it seems there are several understandings of "the baptism of the Spirit" and that is a concept Jesus mentions in Acts 1:5... for some reason this phrase was changed... again both are biblical, but I find it interesting as our theology of the Holy Spirit has been somewhat limited historically due to our traditional belief of cessationism.
and verse 2 of the Spirit of God song... i have rewritten that verse to a positive based on Paul's charge to us in I Cor 14:1... I ask FOR dreams and prophet ecstasies... etc.... AND take the dimness of my soul away. So if we sing v2 in church or anywhere I sing the positive version.