I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
Hey James KA Smith... I remember reading your article in 2008 or 2009 and contacting you back then, because the few "reformed charismatics" seemed to be fairly isolated, and so was thankful that i wasn't the only one, or so it seemed...
just curious what you have experienced in the last 3 years since you wrote that article, but maybe I'll just have to get a copy of the thinking in tongues book.
One of the things that's on my heart, that when i re-read the dancing article, i was reminded of, is "high praise". For some reason, which I have yet to discover the why of it, the niv omitted the adjective "high" which I understand was a very specific Hebrew word "rowmemah" in Ps. 149:6. There are a few other instances where it seems the intensity was decreased in this translation, ie. Jude 3 contend for the faith, vs. earnestly contend found in the NKJV...
As someone pointed out, I think it was in one of these replies, we have been practically "binitarian' therefore minimizing"/quenching the Spirit. I hope that finally, after 40 years of not embracing the Holy Spirit, even though we had confessionally refuted cessationism in 1973 (Thank God! we did at least do that), I hope and pray that "now is the time of God's favor..."
This is one thing I struggle with, that there is no place/table, if you will, in the crc structure for the gift of prophecy to be tested/shared in a safe way. I call this cessationist residue. The council might be a place, but if you are a woman, and there are no women on the council, we are potentially missing 1/2 of the prophetic gifting available to the church. This is totally separate from women in office. It is about the prophetic gifting.
Hey David... first welcome to the network... and next... your post here and your info on your personal page are fascinating to me, as one of the things on my heart is this dance between the charismatics and the more traditional streams... as we dance in step with the Holy Spirit... thx. for sharing your thoughts and experience...
both lines are biblical. (MVL... the PCUSA suggestion is "the love of God was MAGNIFIED!")
Isn't the wrath line in agreement with Romans 5:9 (and other scriptures as well)? and one of the most powerful and prevalent lines of scripture is His mercy/love/chesed endures forever... the contexts of when this line is quoted in scripture is incredible
His anger is but a moment, and His mercy/lovingkindness is eternal... He will not harbor anger forever.... but His love endures forever...
so whether we focus on His wrath or His love... thank God,along with our brothers and sisters in the PCUSA that our eternal salvation is in Christ alone! Worthy is the Lamb!
maybe for every one time we sing it with wrath, we should sing it 5 times with love, or just sing the verse 2x alternating this line
I might sing it the suggested PCUSA way next time =)
Rich, rich, rich discussions... somehow missed this one last month =), but that 's ok... It was immensely encouraging to read it now! Wonderful stuff!!
one comment on hearing the "Voice" within. a year or so ago, I was driving out in the county, and passed a farm, that I knew the family that lived there like 25-30 years ago. As i drove past, i thought about them, but then I kept thinking about them, which made me think, "LORD, do you want me to pray for them?" Well, I thought, if it's the LORD, or if it's me, it doesn't matter, because prayer is almost always a good thing, and definitely lines up with scripture, and in this situation it definitely won't hurt. So I spent a few minutes praying for that family, it was very vague because i hadn't seen them in over 20 years. and then forgot about it when I got to my destination.
The very next day, I ran into one of the daughters that I had gone to school with. and then had the opportunity to pray with her. Hmmm... somehow God was preparing me to meet her the very next day... haven't seen any of the family since.
Love the additional insight of "listening" with other believers... That is so what we're missing... because we haven't been "taught" how to hear, how to discern, how to test and how to confirm.
Love the addition of experience. I often share with people, that the Holy Spirit is an experience.
Love the comment about our emotions. King David was the most emotional guy there was, and the only person in the Bible called a man "after God's heart"! brings up our fear of "emotionalism" which is something we need to better understand the difference between experienceing our emotions and "emotionalism. Fervency is ok in at sporting events and concerts, but not in worship =(
Looking forward to and praying for the day, when we are more enthusiastic about worshipping the Sovereign, the Almighty, the LORD of Hosts, and our high praises ring out, and the sound will be "heard a long way off" (Ezra 3:13)
Having recently read numerous blogs/articles related to the sovereign grace ministries lawsuit, as well as becoming aware of a number of situations where (all kinds of) abuse and inappropriate sexual behavior have been covered up in the Church, I have found several headlines that I believe sum up what is going on: "Abuse thrives in a cultures of shame and silence" and "protecting the powerful at the expense of the weak"
it is time for honest transparency in the Church, to stop covering up and saving face...
it's time to follow I Timothy 5:20 so other leaders will be warned.
and it's time to deal with the sexual objectification of women that is so prevalent in our culture
It's time to speak up on behalf of the weak and vulnerable, that are the victims of abuse!
This is not good news, and I find it a disturbing trend. We/the crc are suppose to be a fairly mature denomination of believers. This does not indicate that. This indicates heart issues (faith formation?) that need to be addressed. It seems we have made many other things a priority, other than the Kingdom. I know there are many reasons why we can not be in church every time the doors are open, some are valid, some are not, but God calls us to seek His Kingdom first. This is one indicator that we are not. We are to love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind... I know we will never perfectly attain this until we get through heaven's gate, but this is an indicator that we are not and instead maybe we are treating Jesus more as a "mascot" instead of as our "Monarch". (see David Bryant's "Christ is ALL" p.12-14)
The level of prayer in the North American church is another indicator of our lack of investing our resources into the Kingdom (95% of believers pray 5 minutes or less a day).
The giving level of believers at 2-3% of income is a significant indicator, and lack of fasting another indicator. These are all serious problems in the Church. Why? We have significantly missed the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit for a variety of reasons. I'm not saying we have totally missed it, but we have to a significant extent.
I appreciate John's comments. and I would love to see the Church gathering on a daily basis at various levels... I think the Koreans gather every morning for prayer...
Why is attendance important? It's one indicator of our heart's desire to love God with all our hearts, souls, mind and strength, it is one indicator of seeking His Kingdom first. That God and spending time with Him is our top priority. God tells us over and over again to seek His face, worshipping together is a key way.
Why are we not meeting daily like the early church? I would love to see this happen. Curious as to when and where did we lose this rhythm?
under the emotional investment... whatever we do is first unto the LORD! He is our audience of One! I help lead an extended time of worship, and it doesn't matter how many people are there, because we are there for Jesus! Because He is worthy of our praise. God takes the pain of poor attendance and lack of enthusiasm to spend time with Him far more "starkly" than we ever will.
thanks Phil, I agree that it is a key component for the health of our congregations... I'm hoping to watch the workshop you shared at the prayer summit on this... do you know if they are available for viewing yet?
I think I will work on encouraging believers in the use of the daily office, maybe through a website such as oremus, to use as one of their devotional times...
thanks John for your encouragement... Believe you me, I am "influencing" every opportunity the Spirit gives me =) and I'm very thankful for forums like the network that let us discuss and sharpen concepts with others that have a similar frame of reference regarding our faith, as well as thankful to be given numerous occasions to have face to face discussions... but I will say I do get frustrated when people are resistant/fearful of this particular gift of the Spirit. I believe there are many (and all do to some extent per Acts 2) in our denomination that have the gift of prophecy, but are basically unaware of it, because it has not been taught or identified; it seems it is not understood very well. I have discussed this with numerous people, and when i share with them how the gifting works, it's like an "aha" moment for them... then there are others that insist God doesn't "speak" to us anymore other than through scripture and its illumination by the Holy Spirit, or that such "listening" is dangerous.
No, it's more dangerous for us not to walk in this gifting (therefore quenching the Spirit), then to walk in it, even if we do make mistakes. Again, scripture says to "eagerly desire". Training and teaching on this gifting will hopefully eliminate many of the mistakes that can be made. That is one of the reasons why people are resistant, because they can point to examples where significant harm was done because someone said "thus saith the LORD" or "God told me..." .. that's why it's very important learning how to test, and test together whatever "prophetic" insight is shared. Otherwise it is a door for people to get off track into a cult and chaos to occur per John McArthur. Several keys for those operating in the prophetic are: to be much in the Word, to be much in prayer and worship, and to be in fellowship with and under the authority of a local church. If believers are not willing to honor and submit to the authority of the church, that is an indication of not being in alignment with the Spirit. I will say the Spirit really opened up this gifting for me as He worked on my prayer life, and I see this gifting stronger with those who spend significant amounts of time in prayer. Now is that a hard and fast rule, probably not, but the 2 do seem to have a pretty strong correlation.
So yes, I'll keep "influencing" ;)... but hopefully it's sharpening, because as Michael shared (oh yeah, that was in another thread =) so see PVK's thread on women and classis under the classis forum for that comment), everything must line up with scripture, we cannot go outside of scripture - that is dangerous, and that's why being in a body of believers is so important to keep us accountable.
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
Hey James KA Smith... I remember reading your article in 2008 or 2009 and contacting you back then, because the few "reformed charismatics" seemed to be fairly isolated, and so was thankful that i wasn't the only one, or so it seemed...
just curious what you have experienced in the last 3 years since you wrote that article, but maybe I'll just have to get a copy of the thinking in tongues book.
One of the things that's on my heart, that when i re-read the dancing article, i was reminded of, is "high praise". For some reason, which I have yet to discover the why of it, the niv omitted the adjective "high" which I understand was a very specific Hebrew word "rowmemah" in Ps. 149:6. There are a few other instances where it seems the intensity was decreased in this translation, ie. Jude 3 contend for the faith, vs. earnestly contend found in the NKJV...
As someone pointed out, I think it was in one of these replies, we have been practically "binitarian' therefore minimizing"/quenching the Spirit. I hope that finally, after 40 years of not embracing the Holy Spirit, even though we had confessionally refuted cessationism in 1973 (Thank God! we did at least do that), I hope and pray that "now is the time of God's favor..."
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
Sam, I would like to know of these scriptures... do you have a link or document or something as a resource on this? Thx.
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
This is one thing I struggle with, that there is no place/table, if you will, in the crc structure for the gift of prophecy to be tested/shared in a safe way. I call this cessationist residue. The council might be a place, but if you are a woman, and there are no women on the council, we are potentially missing 1/2 of the prophetic gifting available to the church. This is totally separate from women in office. It is about the prophetic gifting.
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
Hey David... first welcome to the network... and next... your post here and your info on your personal page are fascinating to me, as one of the things on my heart is this dance between the charismatics and the more traditional streams... as we dance in step with the Holy Spirit... thx. for sharing your thoughts and experience...
Posted in: Orthodoxy and In Christ Alone
both lines are biblical. (MVL... the PCUSA suggestion is "the love of God was MAGNIFIED!")
Isn't the wrath line in agreement with Romans 5:9 (and other scriptures as well)? and one of the most powerful and prevalent lines of scripture is His mercy/love/chesed endures forever... the contexts of when this line is quoted in scripture is incredible
His anger is but a moment, and His mercy/lovingkindness is eternal... He will not harbor anger forever.... but His love endures forever...
so whether we focus on His wrath or His love... thank God,along with our brothers and sisters in the PCUSA that our eternal salvation is in Christ alone! Worthy is the Lamb!
maybe for every one time we sing it with wrath, we should sing it 5 times with love, or just sing the verse 2x alternating this line
I might sing it the suggested PCUSA way next time =)
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
Rich, rich, rich discussions... somehow missed this one last month =), but that 's ok... It was immensely encouraging to read it now! Wonderful stuff!!
one comment on hearing the "Voice" within. a year or so ago, I was driving out in the county, and passed a farm, that I knew the family that lived there like 25-30 years ago. As i drove past, i thought about them, but then I kept thinking about them, which made me think, "LORD, do you want me to pray for them?" Well, I thought, if it's the LORD, or if it's me, it doesn't matter, because prayer is almost always a good thing, and definitely lines up with scripture, and in this situation it definitely won't hurt. So I spent a few minutes praying for that family, it was very vague because i hadn't seen them in over 20 years. and then forgot about it when I got to my destination.
The very next day, I ran into one of the daughters that I had gone to school with. and then had the opportunity to pray with her. Hmmm... somehow God was preparing me to meet her the very next day... haven't seen any of the family since.
Love the additional insight of "listening" with other believers... That is so what we're missing... because we haven't been "taught" how to hear, how to discern, how to test and how to confirm.
Love the addition of experience. I often share with people, that the Holy Spirit is an experience.
Love the comment about our emotions. King David was the most emotional guy there was, and the only person in the Bible called a man "after God's heart"! brings up our fear of "emotionalism" which is something we need to better understand the difference between experienceing our emotions and "emotionalism. Fervency is ok in at sporting events and concerts, but not in worship =(
Looking forward to and praying for the day, when we are more enthusiastic about worshipping the Sovereign, the Almighty, the LORD of Hosts, and our high praises ring out, and the sound will be "heard a long way off" (Ezra 3:13)
Posted in: Teaching Boys to Respect Girls: Why It Matters
Having recently read numerous blogs/articles related to the sovereign grace ministries lawsuit, as well as becoming aware of a number of situations where (all kinds of) abuse and inappropriate sexual behavior have been covered up in the Church, I have found several headlines that I believe sum up what is going on: "Abuse thrives in a cultures of shame and silence" and "protecting the powerful at the expense of the weak"
it is time for honest transparency in the Church, to stop covering up and saving face...
it's time to follow I Timothy 5:20 so other leaders will be warned.
and it's time to deal with the sexual objectification of women that is so prevalent in our culture
It's time to speak up on behalf of the weak and vulnerable, that are the victims of abuse!
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
This is not good news, and I find it a disturbing trend. We/the crc are suppose to be a fairly mature denomination of believers. This does not indicate that. This indicates heart issues (faith formation?) that need to be addressed. It seems we have made many other things a priority, other than the Kingdom. I know there are many reasons why we can not be in church every time the doors are open, some are valid, some are not, but God calls us to seek His Kingdom first. This is one indicator that we are not. We are to love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind... I know we will never perfectly attain this until we get through heaven's gate, but this is an indicator that we are not and instead maybe we are treating Jesus more as a "mascot" instead of as our "Monarch". (see David Bryant's "Christ is ALL" p.12-14)
The level of prayer in the North American church is another indicator of our lack of investing our resources into the Kingdom (95% of believers pray 5 minutes or less a day).
The giving level of believers at 2-3% of income is a significant indicator, and lack of fasting another indicator. These are all serious problems in the Church. Why? We have significantly missed the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit for a variety of reasons. I'm not saying we have totally missed it, but we have to a significant extent.
I appreciate John's comments. and I would love to see the Church gathering on a daily basis at various levels... I think the Koreans gather every morning for prayer...
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
Why is attendance important? It's one indicator of our heart's desire to love God with all our hearts, souls, mind and strength, it is one indicator of seeking His Kingdom first. That God and spending time with Him is our top priority. God tells us over and over again to seek His face, worshipping together is a key way.
Why are we not meeting daily like the early church? I would love to see this happen. Curious as to when and where did we lose this rhythm?
under the emotional investment... whatever we do is first unto the LORD! He is our audience of One! I help lead an extended time of worship, and it doesn't matter how many people are there, because we are there for Jesus! Because He is worthy of our praise. God takes the pain of poor attendance and lack of enthusiasm to spend time with Him far more "starkly" than we ever will.
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
John, your posts make me think of Isaiah 58:13-14...
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
thanks Phil, I agree that it is a key component for the health of our congregations... I'm hoping to watch the workshop you shared at the prayer summit on this... do you know if they are available for viewing yet?
I think I will work on encouraging believers in the use of the daily office, maybe through a website such as oremus, to use as one of their devotional times...
http://oremus.org/
blessings as the Spirit gives you insight to build up and edify the Bride of Christ...
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
thanks John for your encouragement... Believe you me, I am "influencing" every opportunity the Spirit gives me =) and I'm very thankful for forums like the network that let us discuss and sharpen concepts with others that have a similar frame of reference regarding our faith, as well as thankful to be given numerous occasions to have face to face discussions... but I will say I do get frustrated when people are resistant/fearful of this particular gift of the Spirit. I believe there are many (and all do to some extent per Acts 2) in our denomination that have the gift of prophecy, but are basically unaware of it, because it has not been taught or identified; it seems it is not understood very well. I have discussed this with numerous people, and when i share with them how the gifting works, it's like an "aha" moment for them... then there are others that insist God doesn't "speak" to us anymore other than through scripture and its illumination by the Holy Spirit, or that such "listening" is dangerous.
No, it's more dangerous for us not to walk in this gifting (therefore quenching the Spirit), then to walk in it, even if we do make mistakes. Again, scripture says to "eagerly desire". Training and teaching on this gifting will hopefully eliminate many of the mistakes that can be made. That is one of the reasons why people are resistant, because they can point to examples where significant harm was done because someone said "thus saith the LORD" or "God told me..." .. that's why it's very important learning how to test, and test together whatever "prophetic" insight is shared. Otherwise it is a door for people to get off track into a cult and chaos to occur per John McArthur. Several keys for those operating in the prophetic are: to be much in the Word, to be much in prayer and worship, and to be in fellowship with and under the authority of a local church. If believers are not willing to honor and submit to the authority of the church, that is an indication of not being in alignment with the Spirit. I will say the Spirit really opened up this gifting for me as He worked on my prayer life, and I see this gifting stronger with those who spend significant amounts of time in prayer. Now is that a hard and fast rule, probably not, but the 2 do seem to have a pretty strong correlation.
So yes, I'll keep "influencing" ;)... but hopefully it's sharpening, because as Michael shared (oh yeah, that was in another thread =) so see PVK's thread on women and classis under the classis forum for that comment), everything must line up with scripture, we cannot go outside of scripture - that is dangerous, and that's why being in a body of believers is so important to keep us accountable.