Harry Boessenkool

Steve your comments about the options for CRWM might include sending a list of all missionaries by country to all churches with a cost for each country.  Then ask churches to commit to sponsoring missionaries in those countries with a certain amount.  The process might need to be formalized so that the commitments made can be met. But it would certainly involve the churches. At the CRWM you would need a template to help churches decide why they can or would support certain countries.

This is a very high level idea that would need lots of work.

Thank you Amy for doing this. It would be helpful if you could quote the source of your data; yearbook, direct contact etc.  As we are a bi-national church it would also be helpful if you would give some info on geography of the churches that grew by the percentages you mentioned.

Amy, the five points above do have relevance. You have to careful with the one on "strong leadership". When a new Pastor has to blame a previous Pastor for a decline or stagnating church, that makes it difficult to use the name of that church as an example for others.  Leadership of the local church does not rest with just the Pastor.

Pleas keep working with the info you have and keep in mind the tremendous diversity ( on every level ) in the CRCNA/RCA . To find generic ideas that will fit this diversity will be a challenge.

I am not sure I follow all the things you mentioned. I have a simple rule for worship. If the music/singing on the stage or front of the church is amplified I no longer am able to worship because I can not compete with microphones and amplifiers.  Why sing when the entertainers up front do it for you? Seems you teach the congregation NOT to sing.

1) Yup - I can read my Bible just as well as my bothers and sisters in the Denomonation or its assemblies

2) Yup - same reason

What deceptive definitions: religious insiders. Sorry but I don' t buy your  argument. 

Here is a part of the Heiderberg Catechism on which Banner Editor Bob DeMoor had Sermon recently):

26.Q.What do you believe when you say:I believe in God the Father almighty,Creator of heaven and earth?A.That the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,who out of nothing created heaven and earthand all that is in them, 1and who still upholds and governs them    (this is the key phrase that God is in control)by his eternal counsel and providence, 2is, for the sake of Christ his Son,my God and my Father. 3In him I trust so completelyas to have no doubtthat he will provide mewith all things necessary for body and soul, 4and will also turn to my goodwhatever adversity he sends mein this life of sorrow. 5He is able to do so as almighty God, 6and willing also as a faithful Father. 7

Meg, I agree that 2013 will be an inward looking Synod. Many years ago there was a concern expressed about Boardism. In reality not much has changed. The CRCNA at a corporate level has 4  key ministries and a host of smaller ones.The large ones have their own Boards and Managment and it would take a pretty strong leader at the Excutive Director level to take those folks on. Three of the large ministries have an "International/World" component to them. Overlap and duplication  must be taking place. A few years ago we had over 20 people from the CRCNA meeting in Haiti. The travel budgets of the all the agencies must be in the hundreds of thousands.

The issue that the church must deal with is that who is driving all this international activity? The Boards of the large agencies are generally self perpetuating and with Board Member threee year terms, the staff of these agencies tend to carry the day in the meetings. Once an Agency gets approval of its Board for a project what is the BOT going to say?  And then Synod?

The number of immigrants and refugees (not to mention illegals) entering North America must  be around 3 million per year. If Canada does 250,000 a year and the US is ten times bigger, it probably allows in 2.5 million. Maybe the CRCNA should abandon all foreign mission work and focus on North America as the name implies. An exception would of course me made for World Renew.

Bob de Moor had an interesting idea for the selection of a leader for the CRCNA in the Banner. I am personally surprised that the CRCNA has not done a better job of "grooming" leadership within its own organization(s).

More food for thought.

Hi Larry ,

Let's define self sustaining. The most conservative version of a self sustaining church plant is that it submits 100% of their denominational and classical ministry shares. That is one bit of information that the year book does not supply. Also the membership is not made up of transplanted CRC members. Another piece of information the yearbook is not very good at supplying. 

My record keeping of the CRC yearbooks show that the CRC  has created about 100 new congregations in the last 15 years.  If you average the total members over the total number of churches and compare that to 15 years ago the numbers are very disappointing . The CRC has a declining membership supporting more churches with a growing overhead at its headquarters level. If an average church costs about $200,000 per year to maintain, the CRC's overall denominational costs have increased by 20 million in 15 years with little or no growth in number of members.

We are very good at self governing, in fact so good that churches on average keep more funds in their own congregation as the percentage of Ministry shares over the whole denomination (I believe, because I have no proof) are declining marginally. Of course doing ministry locally is not a bad thing but the strengths of what the CRCNA can can do together is very significant and in my view is currently under significant stress.

Not sure what self propagating means. 

Interesting discussion in light of the overall issues in the CRCNA .

self-prop·a·gate

  [prop-uh-geyt]  Show IPA verb, prop·a·gat·ed, prop·a·gat·ing.verb (used with object)1.to cause (an organism) to multiply by any process of natural reproduction from the parent stock.2.to reproduce (itself, its kind, etc.), as an organism does.3.to transmit (hereditary features or elements) to, or through, offspring.4.to spread (a report, doctrine, practice, etc.) from person to person; disseminate.5.to cause to increase in number or amount. I'm still confused how to apply the above definition to Joel Hogans comment. However the tools to do at least part of the above are people skills and resources (time money etc.). I am a bit nervous about the use of this term. 

I commend you for starting this dicussion. Try and engage people from Barnabas (USA)  and Christian Stewardship Services (CDN). These folks are involved, usually, with CRC members on ``end of life``  financial issues.  Also suggest you seperate the USA discussion from the CND discussion because of the legal and tax issues that come up. It can be very confusing  if the person writing is not identified as coming from the USA or CND.

I am from CND.

I respect what you have to say but I love the way you folks run your geography. Chicago and Ontario! (Unless of course you mean Ontario, California) How would you like it if we Canadians referred to other areas as Vancouver B.C. and Texas. Suggest you use Greater Chicago area and Greater Toronto area as much more appropriate and similar size wise.