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Frank and Kelly, greetings.  Thanks again for your take on this particular story and on sexual abuse in the church by those in leadership, especially pastors and elders.  I’m hoping this will be a final comment.

As to this story.  My take is that there are only accusations, whether by this lady or by most of those commenting on this story.  Accusations do not make a person guilty.  The fact that there was no punishment states, to me, that there was no verdict of “sexual assault.”  That there was no formal process of church discipline also states there was no guilt involved (as to sexual assault).  I conclude that the two consistories did their job in good faith, and now there is only dissatisfaction and complaining by others after the completion of their task.

You two seem to imply that these two groups of elders, working together, was little more than an “old boys club” out to protect its own.  They had no interest in getting to the truth, but only of protecting those in leadership positions.  From your understanding and experience, this is common, not only in U.S. churches, but also within our CRC denomination.  You, Frank, explain this as the result of living in a fallen world.  Sin is rampant in the world, as well as in the church.

Your view portrays a very sick view of the church and Christianity.  What you have portrayed is what the typical non Christian believes about Christianity, that it does nothing for the way Christians live their lives.  Christians claim the inward working of the Holy Spirit in a process of sanctification, but such sanctification is far from evident.  Even pastors, who testify to a calling from God and who are led by God’s Spirit, do not portray such a Spirit led life and are poor examples, especially when it comes to sexual misconduct.  In fact, it is common for our pastors to falsely protect each other when it comes to accusations of misconduct.  There is no evidence that Christianity is any different from any other religion in aiding a godly life.  In evangelism, or campus ministry, is the gospel call, “Come to Christ.  He will do nothing for you?”  That’s what the non Christian believes and you seem to affirm this.  Thanks for your input.

Thanks, Mjill H, for your further comment.  I don’t know who you were quoting at the beginning of your comment, but it wasn’t me. I think you are quoting the original article.

As to your husband’s response to this story (and my comments), it is fine that he takes a different point of view than I did.  I don’t expect everyone to agree with my opinion.  I don’t expect all members of the consistory (elders) to agree with each other either.  That seems to be the obvious scenario in the case of this pastor and woman that came before the elders of two churches.  In the end, though, he was vindicated of the charge of sexual assault.  It would be interesting to know his side of the story, because in the end he was not charged in any way.  So it would seem that his thoughts or opinions were relevant to this situation.

I’m not saying that what this pastor did was right.  Definitely, pastors should not go around pinching parishioners on the rear end.  I simply said, that this incident did not rank in the category of “sexual assault.”   As to how he intended his pinch and comment, we will never really know.  We haven’t and will not hear his side of the story.  But the elders did, and charges were not pressed.

Thanks, Bev, for sharing those alarming statistics.  67 percent and counting!!! That’s like saying the majority of those in leadership, including pastors, are abusers of their power.  And they are the example setters to the flock.  Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this?  I think that must be worse than the secular setting.  And yes, the Catholic church: abusers of children, as well as adults.  The church is looking like a pretty sick place.  And Christians are telling those on the other side of the fence to turn to Christ and his body (the church) for new and abundant life.  It looks, Bev, like you are confirming the non-Christian’s skepticism toward Christianity.  At least, you are up front, in revealing the church with all its warts.  As Kelly suggests, the church is unsafe for vulnerable people.

Thanks Kelly, for trying to further this conversation.  You ask if I agree that 2% of our elders and deacons are actively abusing their office, a total figure of 190 abusers annually.  I suppose abuse of office could come in many forms, sexual abuse being just one form.  If 2% is the is the average figure for sexual and emotional abuse in all denominations, is that average in the U.S. or the U.S. and Canada, or is it world wide?  Does that include 3rd world countries, as well as 1st world countries?  Your figure is pretty vague and hard to evaluate.  I would guess sexual abuse in our denomination involves a much lower percentage.  To get a more accurate figure, you would have to check with our denomination or maybe even Safe Church Ministry.  I doubt that the number comes close to the 190 abusers that you cite.  I’ve been in a number of Classes over the last 25 years and the number of reported incidents seem much lower.  So I have a difficult time with your figure of 2% or 190 abusers annually amongst our elders (including pastors) and deacons.

The simplest definition of Safe Church is, “Equipping congregations in abuse awareness, prevention, and response.”  A more elaborate definition is, “Safe Church Ministry equips congregations in abuse awareness, prevention, and response. We help build communities where the value of each person is honored; where people are free to worship and grow free from abuse; and where abuse has occurred, the response is compassion and justice that foster healing.”  I would imagine this equipping of congregations comes, first and foremost, through education.   I imagine that Safe Church is also willing to offer counsel when asked for.  So when I said, educate away, I meant this as a means of encouragement to continue this educational ministry.  This was a positive encouragement, in contrast to a negative, such as saying, “This is how the "Old Boys Club" played out back in the day.”  Are you serious?

You ask what a safe church might look and feel like for women.  Isn’t that contained in the longer definition of Safe Church Ministry?  “...communities where the value of each person is honored; where people are free to worship and grow free from abuse; and where abuse has occurred, the response is compassion and justice that foster healing.”

Thanks, Kelly, for your input to an interesting conversation.

Thank you, Kelly’s husband, for your input.  I take it this comment was written by Kelly’s husband because further in the comment you say, “My wife (an ordained minister of the Word and Sacraments).”  You also mentioned going to the men’s washroom during a break at a Classis meeting in which you talked to other men.  That would be unusual for a woman, especially at a CRC Classis meeting.  It would be helpful if you would identify yourself at the beginning of your response, like everyone else.  Thanks.

As to Baylor’s accuracy of + or - 3%, we are talking of 2% on average of abuse in American denominations.  Wouldn’t a 3% change up or down change a 2% figure drastically?  Beside that, if only one in seven incidents are ever reported, how can an accurate count be formulated?  If the other six incidents are never reported how would Baylor know to include them?  Something’s fishy here.

You say my opinion is irrelevant in regard to this particular story because it is not true.  All opinions are relevant, yours included.  Church councils work on the basis that all opinions count, especially when a vote is taken. Not all council members are going to vote the same, but when the tally is taken the majority wins.  In this particular situation, this man was vindicated of sexual assault, plain and simple.  In the CRC we trust our church councils to make the best decisions in situations they deal with, regardless of the male/female make up of our elder/deacon boards.  If you don’t trust your elders and are accusing them of dishonesty, you are either in the wrong church or wrong denomination. 

Everyone sees situations through different lenses or biases.  Obviously this woman saw this incident through a bias of thinking she was sexually assaulted.  And obviously this pastor saw it as something other than assault, significantly less.  When these two groups of elders (two churches) heard their stories, in the end, they didn’t judge the situation as assault either.  Pinching a person on the rear end is not good decorum or right, but is it assault?  My opinion says no, as was the opinion of this church council. 

You say that this case was obviously mishandled and my opinion is irrelevant.  Is that your opinion, or fact?  Was there ever an apology by the council to the congregation for their decision?  Was the church ever reprimanded by the Classis or Synod for a wrong decision?  Then I take it the church was not at fault in their decision making process.  

Hi, husband of Kelly.  This is awkward, not even knowing your name.  How should I address you?  I do like your picture, although it is a little fuzzy on this website format.  Please use your name in the future.  It clarifies which family member is responding, or use the personal pronoun “we.”

Art. 83 of CRC church order states, “One of the key dynamics in considering abuse of office is the imbalance and misuse of power. The power inherent in the role of officebearer represents a sacred trust and must not be misused.”  There is no official documentation citing that this incident violated the new article 83.  Nor do I believe that past settled and binding cases are retroactively retried according to the new legislation.  Past councils (elders and deacons) did their honest best to resolve all cases in Christian love.  But certainly art. 83 is a good reminder in moving forward into the future in considering cases of abuse.

So, husband, I don’t see how anyone’s opinion is invalid according to this article, mine included. Does this article also mean that your opinion is invalid?  We are both simply stating opinions.   Blessings to you.

Thanks, Safe Church, for your concluding statement, “ It takes all of us working together and holding each other accountable in these matters to maintain an environment that is welcoming and safe for all of God's children.”  I would think that is a statement we can all agree to. Thanks.

Hi Frank.  I understand that you are baiting me with this comment.  That’s true because you have misconstrued most of what I have said in previous comments.  But I will still try to answer your questions.

First, and foremost, it is never ok to pinch any woman on the rear end, unless perhaps your own wife as gesture of love or compassion, like a kiss on the back of the neck.  Of course, kissing other women on the neck would fall into the same category as giving her a pinch on the hiney, and is off limits. 

As to pastors doing this, certainly it seems to be in order to give training in seminary to both male and female students.  In this new age of #Me too, it might be in good order to teach future pastors to never touch a women or a man, whether on the arm or shoulder or anywhere.  It can too easily be misconstrued as sexual misconduct.   As to this pastor, in this story, I have no idea what his motive was, other than I doubt that he was sexually assaulting her (in her husband’s presence).  His motive, whether in jest or as sexual assault, does not justify his action.  So pastors, “No pinching.”  Don’t be stupid.  And you can tell your sons the same.

As to what do you tell your two beautiful daughters.  I have one, too, and she is beautiful.  Should boys pinch her on the hiney, I would have suggested that she should face the boy or man and confront him immediately. “What do you think you are doing?”  Demand an explanation, as well as an apology if the pinch was unwanted.  If the pinch was from her boyfriend, that might be another story.  I imagine that would be the end of the incident.

I hear the stories of other men in leadership misusing their authority.  We’ve all heard them.  I hear stories in the news of men drugging women and while semiconscious raping them.  Or men holding a woman’s future career over her head unless she has sex with him.  I hear of pastors pressuring their staff members to perform oral sex on them.  But I’ve never heard of someone being brought up on sexual assault charges, whether in society or the church, for a pinch on the hiney.  And in this case, I can certainly understand the decision of the elders.

Thanks Frank, for your further comment.  I appreciate your concern for situations like this.  This incident took place in 1995, some 23 years ago.  That’s a long time ago.  This story is the retelling of an incident as she saw and remembers it from the past.  This is her account of what happened, but we have no accounting of events from this pastor, from his perspective.  In fact he is dead and cannot even tell his story.  But I do believe these elders from two churches heard his perspective, and finally sided with him in judging this was not sexual assault and dismissed any charges.  I am not at liberty, nor should you be, to hear a one-sided account and make a judgement.  If I had heard only his accounting and not hers or others, then I would be just as at guilty in making a biased judgement.  It’s too bad that these S.O.S accounts are given from only one perspective, therefore not impartial.

As I read this story and hear of the bitterness held still many years later, it would have been helpful to arrange for some counseling for this women to help her through her trauma.  It may or may not have been offered.  I don’t know seeing as this is a story as seen through one person’s lens.

Thanks, M Jill H, for sharing your own story and how you perceived the abuse that you experienced.  I have little comment for what happened to you, except that I’m sorry.  I hope that time and the love of those who surround you will contribute to your healing and comfort.

Life is full of valleys and mountain tops.  The mountain tops can come from a hundred different directions, as can the valleys.  Some people are struck with physical, mental, monetary, or psychological ups and downs that can be an extreme benefit or deficit upon one’s life.  In this roller coaster of life, it’s hard to predict the presence or beneficence of a loving God, especially when caught in a valley (as you have suggested).  The Psalmist often felt abandoned by God.  “The length of our days is seventy years—or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away” (Psalm 90:10) The deist suggests, that God exists, he created this world as a watchmaker but is far removed from human activity.  His activity might be best seen in and through the natural laws (including the laws of relationships) that we experience daily.  So, to experience God’s healing and comfort in the valleys of life, it is important to avail ourselves of that which brings healing, such as counseling, understanding and loving friendships, and time.  I only wish the best for you in your situation.

Throughout my posting of comments, I have focused, in my opinion, on one flaw in this story.  The retribution sought by this women against this pastor far outweighed the crime.  Yes, he was wrong to pinch this lady on the hiney.  Even the church elders seemed to indicate this by their initial response.  But to classify this as “sexual assault,” was going too far.  And so the elders, of not one church, but two, dropped the charge.  To remove his pastoral credentials, even for a short time, would probably bring the end (ruin) to his ministry, a ministry that he had spent years preparing for.  I believe that these elders recognized this and refused to charge this minister with sexual assault, a charge that did not fit the crime of a pinch on the hiney, even with an unkind comment.  That’s my opinion, and now after all these other comments, I am convinced is still valid.  Thanks for stating your opinions, as well.

Thanks Anthony for this article on whether putting culture or putting Christianity should come first in one’s life.  Quite frankly, I think you are rather naive in thinking that Christianity should win the battle for dominance over culture.  On what grounds do you think your students should abandon their cultural values for those of Christianity?  What makes Christianity any more valid than the Islamic religion or the traditional religions of Kenya?  Are the core teachings of Christianity any more valid or verifiable than those of other religions?  Don’t the teachings of the Bible, especially the New Testament, have to be accepted by faith, apart from any verifiable evidence?  Is there any evidence to verify that God is a three person being or that Jesus is one of those three persons who has come down from heaven to be crucified and then rise in some kind of victory over the world which we can’t see or verify?  So why would or should your students so completely abandon their traditional beliefs for those of Christianity?  It can't be that our beliefs are more rational or verifiable.

You may suggest that the teachings of Christianity are true, maybe even verifiable, because the Bible, God’s inspired word, teaches those truths.  But the Koran, and I’m quite certain that Kenyan traditional religions, will affirm that their teachings are also completely reliable because they are also inspired of God and therefore completely true.  As to truthfulness, other religions make the same claim as Christianity. So, again, why should your students jump on your wagon and abandon what they have been taught all their lives? Certainly, the fact that you believe, shouldn’t convince them anymore than what they believe would convince you to change what you believe.  Again, it seems naive on your part to think that your perspective is any better than theirs. What is your rationale for saying that my religion is better and therefore it makes sense to jump all ships but mine?

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