As to the question of "How can a porn addict present a spotless Bride to our Lord Jesus Christ?” the answer is quite simple…. He or she does it because Christ Jesus died for the sin of porn addiction the same as he died for the sin of contempt.
The idea that a Pastor or leader can not have or should not have sinned is why many men and women suffer from addictions (sin) in secrecy. The distained and unforgiveness of the congregation is often too hateful to expect a Pastor or Leader to come forward and admit to his/her sins. The fact remains that these are men and women who are called to Pastor or Lead and as such, they too have human failings. They are as susceptible to sin as you and I are.
Providing a safe place for a person to disclose sinful behaviour is not providing a place for them to negate their responsibility it is providing what Christ has asked of us but that which most of us as congregants refuse to provide. Forgiveness and love as Christ did for us.
It seems to me that the discussion so far has centered on how these men and women who suffer in sin need to be removed from their positions regardless of the impact on their spouses and children; and little has been said about providing a safe place for confession, repentance and renewal in the Lord.
From the description offered here of a Pastor who is taken with sin, the non-Christian reading this would reason that we served an impotent God.
They have violated their role as Pastors, have no integrity, are deceptive and are hypocrites. They have deep rooted childhood issues, blame others, deny, avoid and they think they are “special”. They are adulterers, narcissistic and they defile their office and they must be removed.
Is this truly how we believe God, our heavenly father sees a Pastor who is struggling with sin? Do we truly believe that this is how He would have us treat his appointed? These comments describing a Minister are much more a worldly view of psychological and Freudian thought on addiction and “deep rooted childhood issues”. We as Christians need to speak to the spiritual issues and we need to speak with the power of Christ Jesus.
As to the question of whether or not we need support groups for Pastors as a select group, I say no. A spiritual illness in a Pastor is no different than a spiritual illness in any follower of Christ. To separate people based on position in the church just feeds the false premise that there is a shame or blame associated with spiritual illness. I believe we need support groups with a Christ centered approach for Christians as a whole who are suffering from spiritual illness. Pornography is just one vice in a myriad of sins which thrive in our Christian community today and this needs to be a concern for all Christians.
I do not accept porn addiction as a physical or psychological illness but as a spiritual illness. It is the manifestation of self, secrecy and isolation that forms an obsession which is then built upon and fortified by Satan through the vise of fear.
The latest studies show that in the United States alone, pornography was a 16.3 billion dollar industry. World wide it is a $107.6 billion dollar industry.
One in every four internet users enters a pornography site daily in the United States.
Every second - 28,258 internet users are viewing pornography.
There are 181 Million websites with the “XXX” in its title.
The demographics on internet search terms such as “sex, group sex and sex chat” are 50/50 in the gender category.
The numbers tell us that it is not an issue for our Pastors solely. It is a spiritual issue that is decimating the Christian community because we choose to be blind to the realities of pornography and simply remove the offending individual rather than speak truth into their lives and into our own at the same time.
The reality is that the only ones being removed are those who are caught in their sin or those who ask for help. The vast majority of those suffering in this particular sin are sitting in the pews each week terrified that they will be found out, persecuted and rejected. They are the everyday Christian who not only battle a sinful life of porn obsession; but live with the constant fear that if they confess and reach out for help; the very people who they need to support them would be the people who would turn them away.
When Jesus met the lady at the well in Samaria did he call her a tramp? Did he tell her she would never change her ways. That she was unforgiveable? When the crowds gathered stones to slay the adulteress in the streets did Jesus say go ahead…. she will not overcome her sin or that she will never be good enough to walk with me? I and my father are powerless to help her?
We are talking as if God is defeated by spiritual illness….
Why do you believe the discussion needs to stay with Ministers and Porn only? When discussing porn we easily move into discussing other sexualy imorrial sin so why can we not move from a Christian Minister to a Christian Man/Woman? Is there a reason why you believe that we must seperate the individual which is affected by spiritual illness? Thank you
Hello Anonymous:
Recognising that there are five of us participating in this conversation I wonder if you would expand on your comment "I think some of the write - ins lack solid background into undersatnding this subject" please.
I just wanted to note that it may be tomorrow evening before I get to come back online. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and I look forward to reading yoru responses.
Thank you Bev for taking the time to share your reasoning with me, I appreciate it very much. I am sorry that we have not had a reply from Anonymous (Concern) to my question for clarification but it most likely would not have changed my position on spiritual illness and the one healer being Christ Jesus. While I respect and can appreciate mans involvement in the process, he can often time be a barrier to allowing God to work his healing. When we start to put psychology first then someone or something has to take a back seat.
I wanted to share with everyone some questions that a Christian friend sent to me following both a verbal, and email conversation which I had had with him regarding the question of providing support groups for pastors who had issues with pornography. I believe his questions bring to light many of my concerns I have with the black and white responses that we have been sharing.
Have a blessed day everyone and I pray that each of us will strive to live the life of the blessing which we individually and collectively are.
Here is the scenario which he presented.
"Let's say you were on the elder board of your church. Your pastor, who has been serving your congregation for the past 4 years, comes to your elder board and confesses that for the past 3 months he/she has been viewing pornography online. He/she believes that the Lord has convicted him/her of this sin, felt led to confess it to those in authority over him/her, and believes the Lord has called him/her to seek out support from the body of Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, in efforts to overcome this sin. The pastor is married (and has confessed and sought forgiveness from their spouse) and has 3 children.
1) How would you provide pastoral care for this pastor? How would you come alongside them and their family? What support would you offer them?
2) Would you release this pastor from ministry from your church? If not, how would you respond to some of the Scripture texts that have been noted I.E. the standards of holiness required of teachers and leaders? If you would release them, would the financial needs of the pastor and the family no longer be your responsibility because they are no longer employed by your church? Would the spiritual needs of the pastor and her/his family still be the responsibility of the church? If not, why not? If so, how would you suggest the church provide for the pastor and her/his family?
3) Would it be your desire to see this pastor restored back into ministry, if at all possible or do you believe he/she has disqualified themselves permanently from ministry because they viewed pornography for three months and, therefore, it is not allowable for them to return to ministry?
4) Would your response to the above questions change if the variables in the situation changed?
What if the pastor had been viewing pornography for the last week?
What if the pastor had been viewing pornography for the last 5 years?
What if the pastor had repented of a different sin?
What if he/she confessed to yelling/being rageful at their spouse for the last three months?
What if he /she confessed to being addicted to their work and neglecting their children for the past five years?
What if she/he confessed to loving money and purchasing lottery tickets for the last year?
What if he/she confessed to entertaining lustful thoughts towards those they provided pastoral care for though they had not been physically intimate with anyone but their spouse, yet for the last 6 months?
What if it was the youth pastor?
What if it was the office administrator?
What if the person was single?
What if she/he was caught in the sin, confronted on it, and agreed with you and confessed their sin?
What if they were caught in the sin, but were unrepentant of it?
5) What steps might we take as councils and classis to encourage, nurture and build up the spiritual health and vitality of our pastors and church leaders in an effort to confront the works of the devil and to spur our church leaders on to greater acts of love, service, obedience, humility, and righteousness?
6) What does "expel the immoral person" mean in our context today? Assuming a sinful person is unrepentant in their sin of pornography, does it mean that we rescind their membership in our church? Does it mean that we do not allow them to participate in the Lord's Supper? Does it mean we no longer welcome them into our church building, whether for programs or worship services? Does it mean we nolonger speak to or associate with the person? Does it mean we call the other non-CRC church down the road (where the wayward person is now attending) and inform them of the person and his/her shameful behaviour?
My concern is with the sexism found in this article. We can argue that violence in general within dating relationships is a male offender dominated issue but this does nothing to protect or to educate the male victims or female offenders. As Christians we have a responsibility not to allow sexist attitudes and idealology to define our Safe Church education and/or information.
Violence does not discriminate on the basis of gender and neither should we.
Thank you Rachel. I am familar with Bonnie Nicholas's understanding on the topic . My concern was and is with allowing and promoting sexism within the Safe Church information such as is seen in this article "Is your Teen Safe". It is a very worldly view on violence which advocates a female victim only and male offender only model. I believe as a Christian site we should be promoting a more Christlike model on violence.... one which looks at how to change the pattern regardless of the gender of the victim or the gender of the offender. Again violence as a whole does not discriminate.
It is simply a suggestion in response to your shared articles question "We’d love to hear your ideas about ways that churches and families can reduce the risks and promote respectful relationships among teens. " . My suggestion is to remove the sexism in the information shared in this article.
Thank you for sharing your views on why gender is part of the equation in violence. I however hold a complete different view and believe there is no valid reason to include gender. Recycling the fact that certain forms of violence are perpetrated against females more than males is valid for what reason other than to lessen the impact of that specific form of violence on the minority gender. The opposite is also true and factual. There are many forms of violence that are disproportionately perpetrated against males. How does this teach us to be more Christ-like and to turn away from violence?
I know of no scripture which suggests that sin has anything to do with gender so I do not hold to the belief that “part of our fallenness is that abuse is not a gender-neutral issue”. My experience has shown me that violence is sustained and built upon because we as a society have made it a gender based issue rather than recognizing it as sin and a spiritual matter. One being a worldly ideology and the other Christian. Regardless violence itself does not discriminate in scripture or in our world today. Both Christians and non-Christians alike are victims and offenders of violence. We as a society in general have chosen to discriminate by giving gender a position in the equation of violence, which is not reflected in God's word. As such, I do not believe gender has any part in our “fall in sin”.
Having been raised by a documented sadistic paedophile I understand first hand what victimization is and what it can do to a person. I accept and respect many of the worldly views on violence but the one which I believe has brought the greatest injustices to the victim is the inclusion of gender. I know without doubt that the gender of my perpetrator mattered nothing to me or to my brothers or sisters either then during the assaults or now in our individual recoveries.
What did matter was knowing that God loved me regardless of the actions of my perpetrator. That He valued me equally to anyone else and that despite the crimes being committed against us; He was going to find a way out for me and my siblings. My gender or the gender of my siblings or offender held no importance.
Violence is gender-neutral as is God.
What we can do as a Christian community to educate and lessen the risks of violence in our teens would be to remove the sexism in our information we put out for them. By removing gender and inserting God into the equation we bring the focus back to the act of violence, (sin) and are able to focus on overcoming the sinful behavior by following scriptures direction on how to overcome sin. In other words, we take the focus of gender and put it where it belongs rather than creating and promoting stereotypes.
I realise it sounds simplified and many will and have accused me of overly simplifying things, yet I believe the only solution to violence is that simple. The God I serve is not a God of genders or of confusion. He is a God of equality, of effectiveness and of simplistic awesomeness which is shown in His justice and in His love.
My belief is based on my acceptance and understanding that Gods love for me was and is identical to His love for my offender. That His forgiveness for me is equal to His forgiveness for my offender and that His gift of healing to me and my siblings is the same gift of healing He offered to my offender. At no time was or is my gender or the gender of my offender an issue to God. Neither was or is it an issue in my recovery through Christ Jesus.
God has not made gender part of the equation in violence which is why I suggested that as a Christian website, we not make gender an issue in education on teen violence. The only area where gender played a role in my recovery was in putting up barriers and the God which I serve is not a God of barriers or ideologies.
Again, the article asked for suggestions on how churches and families can reduce the risks of violence and promote respectful relationships among teens and I suggested that we remove the sexism in the information we provide to them. I believe both as a Christian looking to Gods word for direction and as a victim/Survivor that my gender did nothing to promote or discourage the violence perpetrated against me; nor did my mothers’ gender promote her crimes against my siblings and I.
I respect your right and that of others to believe differently.
You note that the offenders are almost exclusively male (88 - 98%). Where is this number from and can this even remotely be associated with church where the vast majority of caregiver/overseers are female?
Posted in: How should we train our new small groups ministry coordinator?
I just checked out Faith Alive Resources and found many books on sale.... thank you for posting the link.
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
""""
As to the question of "How can a porn addict present a spotless Bride to our Lord Jesus Christ?” the answer is quite simple…. He or she does it because Christ Jesus died for the sin of porn addiction the same as he died for the sin of contempt.
The idea that a Pastor or leader can not have or should not have sinned is why many men and women suffer from addictions (sin) in secrecy. The distained and unforgiveness of the congregation is often too hateful to expect a Pastor or Leader to come forward and admit to his/her sins. The fact remains that these are men and women who are called to Pastor or Lead and as such, they too have human failings. They are as susceptible to sin as you and I are.
Providing a safe place for a person to disclose sinful behaviour is not providing a place for them to negate their responsibility it is providing what Christ has asked of us but that which most of us as congregants refuse to provide. Forgiveness and love as Christ did for us.
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
It seems to me that the discussion so far has centered on how these men and women who suffer in sin need to be removed from their positions regardless of the impact on their spouses and children; and little has been said about providing a safe place for confession, repentance and renewal in the Lord.
From the description offered here of a Pastor who is taken with sin, the non-Christian reading this would reason that we served an impotent God.
They have violated their role as Pastors, have no integrity, are deceptive and are hypocrites. They have deep rooted childhood issues, blame others, deny, avoid and they think they are “special”. They are adulterers, narcissistic and they defile their office and they must be removed.
Is this truly how we believe God, our heavenly father sees a Pastor who is struggling with sin? Do we truly believe that this is how He would have us treat his appointed? These comments describing a Minister are much more a worldly view of psychological and Freudian thought on addiction and “deep rooted childhood issues”. We as Christians need to speak to the spiritual issues and we need to speak with the power of Christ Jesus.
As to the question of whether or not we need support groups for Pastors as a select group, I say no. A spiritual illness in a Pastor is no different than a spiritual illness in any follower of Christ. To separate people based on position in the church just feeds the false premise that there is a shame or blame associated with spiritual illness. I believe we need support groups with a Christ centered approach for Christians as a whole who are suffering from spiritual illness. Pornography is just one vice in a myriad of sins which thrive in our Christian community today and this needs to be a concern for all Christians.
I do not accept porn addiction as a physical or psychological illness but as a spiritual illness. It is the manifestation of self, secrecy and isolation that forms an obsession which is then built upon and fortified by Satan through the vise of fear.
The latest studies show that in the United States alone, pornography was a 16.3 billion dollar industry. World wide it is a $107.6 billion dollar industry.
One in every four internet users enters a pornography site daily in the United States.
Every second - 28,258 internet users are viewing pornography.
There are 181 Million websites with the “XXX” in its title.
The demographics on internet search terms such as “sex, group sex and sex chat” are 50/50 in the gender category.
The numbers tell us that it is not an issue for our Pastors solely. It is a spiritual issue that is decimating the Christian community because we choose to be blind to the realities of pornography and simply remove the offending individual rather than speak truth into their lives and into our own at the same time.
The reality is that the only ones being removed are those who are caught in their sin or those who ask for help. The vast majority of those suffering in this particular sin are sitting in the pews each week terrified that they will be found out, persecuted and rejected. They are the everyday Christian who not only battle a sinful life of porn obsession; but live with the constant fear that if they confess and reach out for help; the very people who they need to support them would be the people who would turn them away.
When Jesus met the lady at the well in Samaria did he call her a tramp? Did he tell her she would never change her ways. That she was unforgiveable? When the crowds gathered stones to slay the adulteress in the streets did Jesus say go ahead…. she will not overcome her sin or that she will never be good enough to walk with me? I and my father are powerless to help her?
We are talking as if God is defeated by spiritual illness….
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
.
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
Hello Bev:
Why do you believe the discussion needs to stay with Ministers and Porn only? When discussing porn we easily move into discussing other sexualy imorrial sin so why can we not move from a Christian Minister to a Christian Man/Woman? Is there a reason why you believe that we must seperate the individual which is affected by spiritual illness? Thank you
Hello Anonymous:
Recognising that there are five of us participating in this conversation I wonder if you would expand on your comment "I think some of the write - ins lack solid background into undersatnding this subject" please.
Thank you
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
Hello Everyone:
I just wanted to note that it may be tomorrow evening before I get to come back online. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and I look forward to reading yoru responses.
Stay blessed
Posted in: A Support Group for Ministers Dealing With Pornography
Hello Everyone:
Thank you Bev for taking the time to share your reasoning with me, I appreciate it very much. I am sorry that we have not had a reply from Anonymous (Concern) to my question for clarification but it most likely would not have changed my position on spiritual illness and the one healer being Christ Jesus. While I respect and can appreciate mans involvement in the process, he can often time be a barrier to allowing God to work his healing. When we start to put psychology first then someone or something has to take a back seat.
I wanted to share with everyone some questions that a Christian friend sent to me following both a verbal, and email conversation which I had had with him regarding the question of providing support groups for pastors who had issues with pornography. I believe his questions bring to light many of my concerns I have with the black and white responses that we have been sharing.
Have a blessed day everyone and I pray that each of us will strive to live the life of the blessing which we individually and collectively are.
Here is the scenario which he presented.
"Let's say you were on the elder board of your church. Your pastor, who has been serving your congregation for the past 4 years, comes to your elder board and confesses that for the past 3 months he/she has been viewing pornography online. He/she believes that the Lord has convicted him/her of this sin, felt led to confess it to those in authority over him/her, and believes the Lord has called him/her to seek out support from the body of Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, in efforts to overcome this sin. The pastor is married (and has confessed and sought forgiveness from their spouse) and has 3 children.
1) How would you provide pastoral care for this pastor? How would you come alongside them and their family? What support would you offer them?
2) Would you release this pastor from ministry from your church? If not, how would you respond to some of the Scripture texts that have been noted I.E. the standards of holiness required of teachers and leaders? If you would release them, would the financial needs of the pastor and the family no longer be your responsibility because they are no longer employed by your church? Would the spiritual needs of the pastor and her/his family still be the responsibility of the church? If not, why not? If so, how would you suggest the church provide for the pastor and her/his family?
3) Would it be your desire to see this pastor restored back into ministry, if at all possible or do you believe he/she has disqualified themselves permanently from ministry because they viewed pornography for three months and, therefore, it is not allowable for them to return to ministry?
4) Would your response to the above questions change if the variables in the situation changed?
What if the pastor had been viewing pornography for the last week?
What if the pastor had been viewing pornography for the last 5 years?
What if the pastor had repented of a different sin?
What if he/she confessed to yelling/being rageful at their spouse for the last three months?
What if he /she confessed to being addicted to their work and neglecting their children for the past five years?
What if she/he confessed to loving money and purchasing lottery tickets for the last year?
What if he/she confessed to entertaining lustful thoughts towards those they provided pastoral care for though they had not been physically intimate with anyone but their spouse, yet for the last 6 months?
What if it was the youth pastor?
What if it was the office administrator?
What if the person was single?
What if she/he was caught in the sin, confronted on it, and agreed with you and confessed their sin?
What if they were caught in the sin, but were unrepentant of it?
5) What steps might we take as councils and classis to encourage, nurture and build up the spiritual health and vitality of our pastors and church leaders in an effort to confront the works of the devil and to spur our church leaders on to greater acts of love, service, obedience, humility, and righteousness?
6) What does "expel the immoral person" mean in our context today? Assuming a sinful person is unrepentant in their sin of pornography, does it mean that we rescind their membership in our church? Does it mean that we do not allow them to participate in the Lord's Supper? Does it mean we no longer welcome them into our church building, whether for programs or worship services? Does it mean we nolonger speak to or associate with the person? Does it mean we call the other non-CRC church down the road (where the wayward person is now attending) and inform them of the person and his/her shameful behaviour?
Posted in: The CRCNA Makes the List
@Randy Blacketer
Maybe it is a situation of them being aware of the Safe Church Policies and it's practices.
"Clearly they are unaware of our Safe Church ministry and the safe church teams of our classes and the policies of our individual congregations."
Posted in: Is Your Teen Safe?
My concern is with the sexism found in this article. We can argue that violence in general within dating relationships is a male offender dominated issue but this does nothing to protect or to educate the male victims or female offenders. As Christians we have a responsibility not to allow sexist attitudes and idealology to define our Safe Church education and/or information.
Violence does not discriminate on the basis of gender and neither should we.
Posted in: Is Your Teen Safe?
Thank you Rachel. I am familar with Bonnie Nicholas's understanding on the topic . My concern was and is with allowing and promoting sexism within the Safe Church information such as is seen in this article "Is your Teen Safe". It is a very worldly view on violence which advocates a female victim only and male offender only model. I believe as a Christian site we should be promoting a more Christlike model on violence.... one which looks at how to change the pattern regardless of the gender of the victim or the gender of the offender. Again violence as a whole does not discriminate.
It is simply a suggestion in response to your shared articles question "We’d love to hear your ideas about ways that churches and families can reduce the risks and promote respectful relationships among teens. " . My suggestion is to remove the sexism in the information shared in this article.
Thanks and be blessed
Posted in: Is Your Teen Safe?
Hello Bonnie:
Thank you for sharing your views on why gender is part of the equation in violence. I however hold a complete different view and believe there is no valid reason to include gender. Recycling the fact that certain forms of violence are perpetrated against females more than males is valid for what reason other than to lessen the impact of that specific form of violence on the minority gender. The opposite is also true and factual. There are many forms of violence that are disproportionately perpetrated against males. How does this teach us to be more Christ-like and to turn away from violence?
I know of no scripture which suggests that sin has anything to do with gender so I do not hold to the belief that “part of our fallenness is that abuse is not a gender-neutral issue”. My experience has shown me that violence is sustained and built upon because we as a society have made it a gender based issue rather than recognizing it as sin and a spiritual matter. One being a worldly ideology and the other Christian. Regardless violence itself does not discriminate in scripture or in our world today. Both Christians and non-Christians alike are victims and offenders of violence. We as a society in general have chosen to discriminate by giving gender a position in the equation of violence, which is not reflected in God's word. As such, I do not believe gender has any part in our “fall in sin”.
Having been raised by a documented sadistic paedophile I understand first hand what victimization is and what it can do to a person. I accept and respect many of the worldly views on violence but the one which I believe has brought the greatest injustices to the victim is the inclusion of gender. I know without doubt that the gender of my perpetrator mattered nothing to me or to my brothers or sisters either then during the assaults or now in our individual recoveries.
What did matter was knowing that God loved me regardless of the actions of my perpetrator. That He valued me equally to anyone else and that despite the crimes being committed against us; He was going to find a way out for me and my siblings. My gender or the gender of my siblings or offender held no importance.
Violence is gender-neutral as is God.
What we can do as a Christian community to educate and lessen the risks of violence in our teens would be to remove the sexism in our information we put out for them. By removing gender and inserting God into the equation we bring the focus back to the act of violence, (sin) and are able to focus on overcoming the sinful behavior by following scriptures direction on how to overcome sin. In other words, we take the focus of gender and put it where it belongs rather than creating and promoting stereotypes.
I realise it sounds simplified and many will and have accused me of overly simplifying things, yet I believe the only solution to violence is that simple. The God I serve is not a God of genders or of confusion. He is a God of equality, of effectiveness and of simplistic awesomeness which is shown in His justice and in His love.
My belief is based on my acceptance and understanding that Gods love for me was and is identical to His love for my offender. That His forgiveness for me is equal to His forgiveness for my offender and that His gift of healing to me and my siblings is the same gift of healing He offered to my offender. At no time was or is my gender or the gender of my offender an issue to God. Neither was or is it an issue in my recovery through Christ Jesus.
God has not made gender part of the equation in violence which is why I suggested that as a Christian website, we not make gender an issue in education on teen violence. The only area where gender played a role in my recovery was in putting up barriers and the God which I serve is not a God of barriers or ideologies.
Again, the article asked for suggestions on how churches and families can reduce the risks of violence and promote respectful relationships among teens and I suggested that we remove the sexism in the information we provide to them. I believe both as a Christian looking to Gods word for direction and as a victim/Survivor that my gender did nothing to promote or discourage the violence perpetrated against me; nor did my mothers’ gender promote her crimes against my siblings and I.
I respect your right and that of others to believe differently.
Posted in: Individuals with Disabilities Face Increased Risks of Abuse
Hello Rachel:
You note that the offenders are almost exclusively male (88 - 98%). Where is this number from and can this even remotely be associated with church where the vast majority of caregiver/overseers are female?
Thank you
Shawn