Bert, I agree with you that the quran will not help us to understand the bible better. But what I think was meant by the phrase (could have been said better), is that christians can use their knowledge of the quran to lead moslems to the bible. There are some similar sayings and there are some references to Jesus, which provide a kind of natural link to talking about the truths found in the bible. I agree with you that "Bridge" is a poor term, because it suggests we need to cross the bridge of quran in order to understand or receive scripture, and that is not so.
Norman, there are probably two ways of making progress on a discussion for change, just like there are two ways of learning. One way is to examine all the theoretical angles and possibilities at length. This way is great for philosophers and abstract thinkers. The other way is just to start doing something. Trial and error. If it works, great, if not then try again. For example you mentioned that we seem to be getting less devotional generally in the denomination. If you don't get much uptake in abstract undefined discussion, then perhaps it would be more effective to simply propose some change in focus for devotions. For example, we used to make mealtimes the primary focus of family devotions, but now mealtimes seem both hurried and disjointed in many cases. Perhaps it makes more sense for some to have family devotions with their children in the evening just before the kids go to bed. To allocate at least twenty or thirty minutes to bible reading, story telling, explanations, questions and singing. So here is a concrete proposal which can be debated or discussed as to pros and cons.
Or, for others, they might get up thirty minutes earlier every morning so that they have time for morning devotions before or during breakfast.
Perhaps some added impetus could be added as well, both in regards to teaching children who are entrusted to us by God, and who we would like to see in heaven, not in the other place. Some added impetus would also include the fact that if we do not spend time in devotions, perhaps we are lying when we say we love the Lord? and likely God will take note of that lie? Devotions are not just a side issue but they are foundational. Living without devotions is like being married without kissing your wife or husband; it can be done, but you might wonder if this stale life contains any love.
Sam, your gardening analogy is interesting. I like my garden with potatoes as high as my pockets, and peas, beets, carrots doing their thing. Weeds are probably the biggest hindrance to growing a good garden, with fertility a big second, after moisture, of course. In your analogy, it would be interesting to imagine what the "weeds" are that we need to pull out, in order for the garden to thrive. And how do we pick these weeds without hurting the crop we want?
This is a good article. It is very important to use language that people understand. Last night I watched a movie called "Flywheel", produced by the same group as for "Courageous"and "Fireproof". In this movie the used car salesman heard a story from a customer who could no longer make payments on her car, and would have to give the car back, because of loss of work, medical bills, etc. The car salesman asked how much she still owed on the car, and she replied about $1200. He wrote her out a bill of sale and title to the car, and told her he believed her and that she no longer owed anything. Done. Car payments forgiven and eliminated. Maybe not a perfect example, but a modern example or analogy of God's grace. This example touched me because I could understand it, and maybe because of how it was presented.
I wonder if part of the reason why people many only attend church twice a month on average (which is similar to findings of national gallup and diary surverys), is because we can seem to discuss this issue so cooly and intellectually. Without passion, without purpose, without a sense of urgency or committment, there is no real reason for people to be concerned about whether they attend church every week or not. The lack of passion that allowed people to put social visiting, or football games or hockey games, or disney ahead of any extra effort it might take to gather together as God's people to honor God, rather than self, rather than human beings, rather than our own comfort or convenience, rather than work which could be done at another time, is the same cause for our present twice a month average as it was for our once a Sunday service (instead of twice a sunday, plus young people's in the evening).
I know people will come up with exceptions and all kinds of examples to the contrary, but the stats speak for themselves. In spite of fewer services, many people do less service and worship outside of worship services than they used to do in spite of twice a sunday worship. I'm presently reading thru Kings, and the repetition of a certain phrase sticks in my mind. A king would do what is pleasing to God, but he did not remove the high places where the people offered sacrifices and incense to other gods. Always the other false gods were in the background, causing a divergence of worship, replacing the single minded devotion to God that God himself required. In the end, Israel and Judah paid for their attempted worship of many gods, in a very serious and sad way. I wonder what we ourselves are really like.
Personally I just can't imagine how people could neglect worshipping God on sunday, in whatever location they are in, with whatever group of christians they can find. It would be like going to live with your secretary, or your boss, or your football friends every other week, instead of going home to your wife and kids. We are not removing the many "high places" of false worship in our lives.
Good points made by Don J. Sometimes we pull out very convenient scriptures, don't we?
With regard to Verlyn's point about discerning the body of Christ, I have pondered a bit more. Some versions translate that as recognizing the body of Christ. I'm thinking that the action is actually not about self reflection but is about knowing and recognizing the body of Christ. Yes, that does have implications for how we treat the members of the body, which is the main thrust of this passage. But, the real problem is that some Corinthians were not recognizing the body of christ, but only looking at their outward human appearance with outward social conditions. As John 7:24 says, "stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly". They were forgetting that these people were the body of Christ; they were judging these people, but with the wrong criteria. To judge these other christians means to recognize them as saved repentant fellow believers, since they confessed Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Are "krino" and "diakrino" gramatically related? I get krino - to judge, and diakrino - to judge thoroughly (back and forth).
Phil, and Mark. Attending church is all about value judgements. If we have to ask why we do it, if we don't know why, then that alone is part of the problem. God gave a command of keeping Sabbaths. If we think we are smarter than God, then that is part of the problem too. For me, it is not about a personal investment as a pastor. That would be a problem in itself. No one ought to be attending church to satisfy the personal investment of a pastor or a song leader.
The values attached to church attendance simply have to do with honoring God. It has to do with saying and indicating that honoring God is more important than the superbowl, more important than my personal physical comfort, more important than the latest reality show, more important than my work, more important than cutting the grass or cooking a big meal, and more important than the so-called wants and desires of family and friends. That is what the weekly worship signifies. Its not about making a pastor happy, and its not about making me happy, and its not about making my kids happy.
For that reason, church attendance is an indication of the values that are important in our lives. Church attendance is not about us. It is about God.
We should not confuse alternate methods of church attendance with a total lack of attendance. If a small group worship is done sincerely and completely, then it is still a worship service. A small church with ten families is just as much worship as a large church with 400 families. But if it is merely a friendly social barbecue, without prayer and bible reading and exposition and examination of the word, without praise, and without singing, then it is not a worship service. There is a danger that small group worship can deteriorate into a social party, if the leadership is not very determined and purposeful, so small groups need this extra warning.
We should also recognize that because people do travel much more than in the past, that they may not be participating in worship at home, but can still participate in worship at a church in another town. This happens for students, for retirees, for vacationers. Sometimes family reunions will establish their own church service on a Sunday. Sometimes people may even worship at another church in the same town for special reasons. While this is not desireable if it happens too often, it is not the same issue as someone who stays home because they need a break, or someone who sits on the beach or goes on a hike as a substitute because they are on vacation. God does not take a vacation from us. Parents cannot take a vacation from their young children. And we ought not to take a vacation from our relationship with God. It hurts our relationship with God.
I have once in the last five years, remained in a resort hotel on a Sunday morning with my family, because we had arrived late the evening before, and did not know where a local church was in a strange town. We watched five different worship services on tv that morning, in sequence, an enlightening and enriching thing in itself. But it is no substitute for worship, for actual participation in singing and prayer and fellowship.
Merely analyzing trends in some cold objective fashion and justifying or finding a way to adjust, will do nothing to bring us closer to God. God accused the Israelites of committing adultery against Him when they did not keep his Sabbaths. They committed adultery/idolatry when other gods were worshipped on the "high places" and altars of the false gods. Whenever we think we are somehow inately better than the Israelites, and that our practices cannot be judged, then we have fallen into the same trap as the Israelites. And what makes us think that we will not suffer a similar fate that the Israelites and old kings of Judah suffered? Do we think that our pride and smug superiority and other sacrifices will redeem us?
Faith without works is dead, we read in James. While attending church will not save us from our sins, because only Christ redeems us, it is still an indication of where our heart is, and how we value our relationship with God. It is not just a social trend. It is a direct indication of what is important to us, and where our heart is.
Phil, if you put "church attendance USA" into your search, you should find it. Here is one link: religioustolerance.org › Christianity › History, beliefs, practices
Although many more passages in scripture mention God being the judge, and that we should judge ourselves, A couple of passages that talk about the necessity of judging others, or judging between others in the church are found in I cor. 5 and 6. It would also seem there are two aspects to this judging. One is discernment of what is obedience to God or not obedience to God. The second aspect is to judge an appropriate consequence to disobedience. I corinthians 5 talks about quite a severe consequence for an obvious rebellion. But I Cor 6 mentions judging in the sense of settling disputes. These disputes seem often to be personal disputes maybe about business or property, but perhaps could also include disputes about how we are to live in obedience before the Lord. The focus seems to be on actions requiring judgement, not on condemnation for eternal judgement, which is God's job, not ours.
I Corinthians 5 "It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”"
I Corinthians 6:2-4 "Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church?"
A couple of additional comments: Phil, those who come for an aesthetic experience, or for community fellowship, will in the end find it easy to find the same things at a ballgame, or an art show, or a concert performance, or a curling rink. And in fact they are finding it there, perhaps because they assume that if that's really the only reason to go to church anyway, so what's the difference. In reality, the primary legitimate reason is to worship God together, and members ought to know and understand that first of all. If they don't, its the fault of the preachers. If they don't, they are being led astray by somebody. Figure out who it is... Change the message about the purpose of church getting together.
Now I realize that new visitors and seekers will have different reasons, and we also ought to pay attention to that. Fellowship in particular is also essential (but not foundational). But other reasons can never be a long term foundational purpose.
Last week I wrote a sermon about the "high places" in our lives, similar to old testament Israel. (tied in with Romans 6). It is those "high places" that divert people to different purposes, and decrease both attendance of members, and membership itself. If we don't have a good grasp of the purpose of worship, then it will be impossible for us to have any kind of grasp of the purpose of creation care, or christian education, or home missions, or christian relief efforts. Instead of honoring God thru these other efforts, they will simply become false idols and other altars, if we do not understand the purpose of gathering together for worship (and make it our priority).
I appreciate what Bev is saying too. More prayer! I can feel from week to week, when prayer is weak, then my faith life slides and suffers.
Mavis, as a dedicated Christian, when you are out of town, do you still find a place to worship with believers? Last Sunday we had a few missing as well, but I'm quite sure that they were worshipping at a very small church one and a half hours away, another church an hour away, or at another church seven hours away. On the other hand, we had some guests too.
One more comment regarding Joe who said that Jesus did not put much emphasis on weekly worship. First, Scripture gives no indication that Jesus missed Sabbath worship. Often it indicates that he was invited to speak in the synogogue on the sabbath. Second, Jesus often had his own worship, with many more people than would fit in a regular synogogue. And his sermons were better too. He spoke with authority. Third, Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. But that does not mean he was suggesting that everyone should just do whatever they did every other day of the week. The fact that the Sabbath was made for man, meant it was a gift to man. A gift to be used for what it was intended, not a gift to be squandered and wasted. Many people squander and waste the sabbath on their own selfish desires, on their own false gods of money, or business, or recreation, concerts, meetings, vacation, and organized sports. For some, only a thin thread keeps them connected to the path that Jesus wants us to follow Him on.
Posted in: The Quran and the Mission of the Church
Bert, I agree with you that the quran will not help us to understand the bible better. But what I think was meant by the phrase (could have been said better), is that christians can use their knowledge of the quran to lead moslems to the bible. There are some similar sayings and there are some references to Jesus, which provide a kind of natural link to talking about the truths found in the bible. I agree with you that "Bridge" is a poor term, because it suggests we need to cross the bridge of quran in order to understand or receive scripture, and that is not so.
Posted in: Take Note
Norman, there are probably two ways of making progress on a discussion for change, just like there are two ways of learning. One way is to examine all the theoretical angles and possibilities at length. This way is great for philosophers and abstract thinkers. The other way is just to start doing something. Trial and error. If it works, great, if not then try again. For example you mentioned that we seem to be getting less devotional generally in the denomination. If you don't get much uptake in abstract undefined discussion, then perhaps it would be more effective to simply propose some change in focus for devotions. For example, we used to make mealtimes the primary focus of family devotions, but now mealtimes seem both hurried and disjointed in many cases. Perhaps it makes more sense for some to have family devotions with their children in the evening just before the kids go to bed. To allocate at least twenty or thirty minutes to bible reading, story telling, explanations, questions and singing. So here is a concrete proposal which can be debated or discussed as to pros and cons.
Or, for others, they might get up thirty minutes earlier every morning so that they have time for morning devotions before or during breakfast.
Perhaps some added impetus could be added as well, both in regards to teaching children who are entrusted to us by God, and who we would like to see in heaven, not in the other place. Some added impetus would also include the fact that if we do not spend time in devotions, perhaps we are lying when we say we love the Lord? and likely God will take note of that lie? Devotions are not just a side issue but they are foundational. Living without devotions is like being married without kissing your wife or husband; it can be done, but you might wonder if this stale life contains any love.
Posted in: The Parable of the Neglectful Gardener
Sam, your gardening analogy is interesting. I like my garden with potatoes as high as my pockets, and peas, beets, carrots doing their thing. Weeds are probably the biggest hindrance to growing a good garden, with fertility a big second, after moisture, of course. In your analogy, it would be interesting to imagine what the "weeds" are that we need to pull out, in order for the garden to thrive. And how do we pick these weeds without hurting the crop we want?
Posted in: What Language are You Using?
This is a good article. It is very important to use language that people understand. Last night I watched a movie called "Flywheel", produced by the same group as for "Courageous"and "Fireproof". In this movie the used car salesman heard a story from a customer who could no longer make payments on her car, and would have to give the car back, because of loss of work, medical bills, etc. The car salesman asked how much she still owed on the car, and she replied about $1200. He wrote her out a bill of sale and title to the car, and told her he believed her and that she no longer owed anything. Done. Car payments forgiven and eliminated. Maybe not a perfect example, but a modern example or analogy of God's grace. This example touched me because I could understand it, and maybe because of how it was presented.
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
I wonder if part of the reason why people many only attend church twice a month on average (which is similar to findings of national gallup and diary surverys), is because we can seem to discuss this issue so cooly and intellectually. Without passion, without purpose, without a sense of urgency or committment, there is no real reason for people to be concerned about whether they attend church every week or not. The lack of passion that allowed people to put social visiting, or football games or hockey games, or disney ahead of any extra effort it might take to gather together as God's people to honor God, rather than self, rather than human beings, rather than our own comfort or convenience, rather than work which could be done at another time, is the same cause for our present twice a month average as it was for our once a Sunday service (instead of twice a sunday, plus young people's in the evening).
I know people will come up with exceptions and all kinds of examples to the contrary, but the stats speak for themselves. In spite of fewer services, many people do less service and worship outside of worship services than they used to do in spite of twice a sunday worship. I'm presently reading thru Kings, and the repetition of a certain phrase sticks in my mind. A king would do what is pleasing to God, but he did not remove the high places where the people offered sacrifices and incense to other gods. Always the other false gods were in the background, causing a divergence of worship, replacing the single minded devotion to God that God himself required. In the end, Israel and Judah paid for their attempted worship of many gods, in a very serious and sad way. I wonder what we ourselves are really like.
Personally I just can't imagine how people could neglect worshipping God on sunday, in whatever location they are in, with whatever group of christians they can find. It would be like going to live with your secretary, or your boss, or your football friends every other week, instead of going home to your wife and kids. We are not removing the many "high places" of false worship in our lives.
Posted in: To Judge or Not to Judge: That Is the Question
Good points made by Don J. Sometimes we pull out very convenient scriptures, don't we?
With regard to Verlyn's point about discerning the body of Christ, I have pondered a bit more. Some versions translate that as recognizing the body of Christ. I'm thinking that the action is actually not about self reflection but is about knowing and recognizing the body of Christ. Yes, that does have implications for how we treat the members of the body, which is the main thrust of this passage. But, the real problem is that some Corinthians were not recognizing the body of christ, but only looking at their outward human appearance with outward social conditions. As John 7:24 says, "stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly". They were forgetting that these people were the body of Christ; they were judging these people, but with the wrong criteria. To judge these other christians means to recognize them as saved repentant fellow believers, since they confessed Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Are "krino" and "diakrino" gramatically related? I get krino - to judge, and diakrino - to judge thoroughly (back and forth).
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
Phil, and Mark. Attending church is all about value judgements. If we have to ask why we do it, if we don't know why, then that alone is part of the problem. God gave a command of keeping Sabbaths. If we think we are smarter than God, then that is part of the problem too. For me, it is not about a personal investment as a pastor. That would be a problem in itself. No one ought to be attending church to satisfy the personal investment of a pastor or a song leader.
The values attached to church attendance simply have to do with honoring God. It has to do with saying and indicating that honoring God is more important than the superbowl, more important than my personal physical comfort, more important than the latest reality show, more important than my work, more important than cutting the grass or cooking a big meal, and more important than the so-called wants and desires of family and friends. That is what the weekly worship signifies. Its not about making a pastor happy, and its not about making me happy, and its not about making my kids happy.
For that reason, church attendance is an indication of the values that are important in our lives. Church attendance is not about us. It is about God.
We should not confuse alternate methods of church attendance with a total lack of attendance. If a small group worship is done sincerely and completely, then it is still a worship service. A small church with ten families is just as much worship as a large church with 400 families. But if it is merely a friendly social barbecue, without prayer and bible reading and exposition and examination of the word, without praise, and without singing, then it is not a worship service. There is a danger that small group worship can deteriorate into a social party, if the leadership is not very determined and purposeful, so small groups need this extra warning.
We should also recognize that because people do travel much more than in the past, that they may not be participating in worship at home, but can still participate in worship at a church in another town. This happens for students, for retirees, for vacationers. Sometimes family reunions will establish their own church service on a Sunday. Sometimes people may even worship at another church in the same town for special reasons. While this is not desireable if it happens too often, it is not the same issue as someone who stays home because they need a break, or someone who sits on the beach or goes on a hike as a substitute because they are on vacation. God does not take a vacation from us. Parents cannot take a vacation from their young children. And we ought not to take a vacation from our relationship with God. It hurts our relationship with God.
I have once in the last five years, remained in a resort hotel on a Sunday morning with my family, because we had arrived late the evening before, and did not know where a local church was in a strange town. We watched five different worship services on tv that morning, in sequence, an enlightening and enriching thing in itself. But it is no substitute for worship, for actual participation in singing and prayer and fellowship.
Merely analyzing trends in some cold objective fashion and justifying or finding a way to adjust, will do nothing to bring us closer to God. God accused the Israelites of committing adultery against Him when they did not keep his Sabbaths. They committed adultery/idolatry when other gods were worshipped on the "high places" and altars of the false gods. Whenever we think we are somehow inately better than the Israelites, and that our practices cannot be judged, then we have fallen into the same trap as the Israelites. And what makes us think that we will not suffer a similar fate that the Israelites and old kings of Judah suffered? Do we think that our pride and smug superiority and other sacrifices will redeem us?
Faith without works is dead, we read in James. While attending church will not save us from our sins, because only Christ redeems us, it is still an indication of where our heart is, and how we value our relationship with God. It is not just a social trend. It is a direct indication of what is important to us, and where our heart is.
God help us!
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
Phil, if you put "church attendance USA" into your search, you should find it. Here is one link: religioustolerance.org › Christianity › History, beliefs, practices
The gall
the gallup surveys are pretty common knowledge.
Posted in: To Judge or Not to Judge: That Is the Question
Although many more passages in scripture mention God being the judge, and that we should judge ourselves, A couple of passages that talk about the necessity of judging others, or judging between others in the church are found in I cor. 5 and 6. It would also seem there are two aspects to this judging. One is discernment of what is obedience to God or not obedience to God. The second aspect is to judge an appropriate consequence to disobedience. I corinthians 5 talks about quite a severe consequence for an obvious rebellion. But I Cor 6 mentions judging in the sense of settling disputes. These disputes seem often to be personal disputes maybe about business or property, but perhaps could also include disputes about how we are to live in obedience before the Lord. The focus seems to be on actions requiring judgement, not on condemnation for eternal judgement, which is God's job, not ours.
I Corinthians 5 "It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”"
I Corinthians 6:2-4 "Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church?"
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
A couple of additional comments: Phil, those who come for an aesthetic experience, or for community fellowship, will in the end find it easy to find the same things at a ballgame, or an art show, or a concert performance, or a curling rink. And in fact they are finding it there, perhaps because they assume that if that's really the only reason to go to church anyway, so what's the difference. In reality, the primary legitimate reason is to worship God together, and members ought to know and understand that first of all. If they don't, its the fault of the preachers. If they don't, they are being led astray by somebody. Figure out who it is... Change the message about the purpose of church getting together.
Now I realize that new visitors and seekers will have different reasons, and we also ought to pay attention to that. Fellowship in particular is also essential (but not foundational). But other reasons can never be a long term foundational purpose.
Last week I wrote a sermon about the "high places" in our lives, similar to old testament Israel. (tied in with Romans 6). It is those "high places" that divert people to different purposes, and decrease both attendance of members, and membership itself. If we don't have a good grasp of the purpose of worship, then it will be impossible for us to have any kind of grasp of the purpose of creation care, or christian education, or home missions, or christian relief efforts. Instead of honoring God thru these other efforts, they will simply become false idols and other altars, if we do not understand the purpose of gathering together for worship (and make it our priority).
I appreciate what Bev is saying too. More prayer! I can feel from week to week, when prayer is weak, then my faith life slides and suffers.
Mavis, as a dedicated Christian, when you are out of town, do you still find a place to worship with believers? Last Sunday we had a few missing as well, but I'm quite sure that they were worshipping at a very small church one and a half hours away, another church an hour away, or at another church seven hours away. On the other hand, we had some guests too.
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
One more comment regarding Joe who said that Jesus did not put much emphasis on weekly worship. First, Scripture gives no indication that Jesus missed Sabbath worship. Often it indicates that he was invited to speak in the synogogue on the sabbath. Second, Jesus often had his own worship, with many more people than would fit in a regular synogogue. And his sermons were better too. He spoke with authority. Third, Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. But that does not mean he was suggesting that everyone should just do whatever they did every other day of the week. The fact that the Sabbath was made for man, meant it was a gift to man. A gift to be used for what it was intended, not a gift to be squandered and wasted. Many people squander and waste the sabbath on their own selfish desires, on their own false gods of money, or business, or recreation, concerts, meetings, vacation, and organized sports. For some, only a thin thread keeps them connected to the path that Jesus wants us to follow Him on.
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
Scripture says it better than we do, doesn't it?