I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
BOQ.. which is to say that Classis are regularly appointed according to geography and have never been previously created on the basis of a theological barrier or divide. EOQ
where I struggle is this theological barrier/divide seems to be totally ok at the denominational level, but then not ok at a classical level... how can we apply this to one level, and totally ignore it at a higher/broader level?
isn't this how the CRC broke away from the RCA in the first place?
maybe our "denominations" should also be regional instead of based on theological, etc. differences.... maybe we need to be looking at a bigger dimension than just classis... it seems we are ok with gathering all the "like" minded denominations into alliances.... and that's not by region/geography... so which one is it? is the Church to be expressed by region or by like mindedness? Which one does Scripture support?
bless your heart Meg for your response... that is a great quote, and it was also the motto of the Moravians in the 1700's, who if you aren't familiar with them, they are worth researching...
this is an amazing thing i have found, when I pray with brothers and sisters in the LORD, from all different streams, we are almost always in unity... as soon as we finish praying and start talking, I quickly realize we have some different theological pages... but yet, when we pray together in the Name of Jesus, there is a definite sense of unity.
What is interesting to me, is how in Revelation, the 7 churches are addressed by geographical area. I think God intended us to have to work through our theological differences of understanding (iron sharpens iron), and yes, when it is heresy, then to deal with it and repent, again using the letters to the 7 churches as examples.. however, what is heresy, and what is not, can be a difficult question, and the Word of God, under the enlightenment of the Spirit, is our plumbline. The confusion comes in with interpretation/understanding. (This hits so close to home, as I just got an email re this very thing, so sorry if I'm vague and just scratching the surface on this, but it's a huge topic)
and your last question:
And, regardless, how are we tasked to demonstrate charity?
honoring each other is huge (Rom 12:10), we honor the Church, as the Bride of Christ, and so we honor each other as brothers and sisters in the LORD.
a second thing that has helped me, is knowing that our battle is not against each other, not against flesh and blood, but it's against the enemy who is trying to steal, kill, destroy, divide and deceive.
but here's our assurance!! Greater is He that is in us...
LORD, pour Your love into the hearts of Your followers, by Your Spirit, so that we can be one, as You and the Father are one!
my hope and prayer for Synod, is that there will be such an outpouring of the Spirit for unity... going back to the Moravians, they had many struggles over doctrine - far more diverse than what we're wrestling with here, as they had religious refugees from various streams (moravian brethren / catholic / protestant / lutheran / etc) all coming together to live in Hernhut, close to Count Nicolaus von Zinzendorf's estate (he wrote #513 in Gray Psalter - Christian Hearts in Love United - works well with tune of Come all Christians be Committed as an option). They were so divided that they walked to church/communion on separate sides of the street. at one point, through prayer and research led by Zinzendorf, a covenant of unity was drawn up, and shortly thereafter the Holy Spirit fell upon them in one of the most powerful outpourings since Pentecost. I think most of us would love for such an outpouring to fall on the crc / synod / michigan /any state / any congregation !!
BOQ The refugees established a new village called Herrnhut, about 2 miles (3 km) from Berthelsdorf. The town initially grew steadily, but major religious disagreements emerged and by 1727 the community was divided into warring factions. Count Zinzendorf worked to bring about unity in the town and the Brotherly Agreement was adopted by the community on 12 May 1727. This is considered the beginning of the renewal. Then, on 13 August 1727 the community underwent a dramatic transformation when the inhabitants of Herrnhut "learned to love one another", following an experience that they attributed to a visitation of the Holy Spirit, similar to that recorded in the Bible on the day of Pentecost. EOQ
warring factions hmmm? can we relate?
again, their history is fascinating, as the Moravian Brethren come from the pre-reformers of Jan Hus and John Comenius... I encourage you to do your own research on them... maybe this should be mandatory reading for synod delegates =)
RE: CO supplement to Article 84 (this is what I meant to refer to in my previous reply, but I simply said CO article 84)... it seems to me from researching this a while back, the office bearer can be given a 2nd chance unless the "sexual misconduct" is against a minor (1.a.) than it's one strike they are out. But if there is more than one incident of "sexual misconduct" or one incident of "sexual misconduct" AND one incident of ungodly behavior (1.d.), then the door for reinstatement is closed. (any experts on CO, such as Henry DeMoor, feel free to correct or affirm my understanding of this =)
One of the questions I have, and the CO is not clear to me (again CO experts please clarify!), is... what if there are several known incidents of "ungodly behavior" (so there is an indication of a pattern), but not any known "sexual misconduct"? I think with exhibitionism/voyeurism/prostitution we already know that if caught, this will result in a public criminal charge, that will most likely follow the officebearer for the rest of their life through complete background checks. So, what about the ungodly conduct (such as looking at/engaging in porn) that does not result in a criminal charge, but where there have been several incidents for the same officebearer? Does the CO equate "engaging" as in "habitually" viewing", viewing and physically "reacting/responding/etc" or any "intentional" viewing? If there is any information on this anywhere, it would be helpful to know.
FYI...
Supplement, Article 84
Regulations for Reinstatement of Office Bearers Guilty of Sexual Misconduct
When reinstatement is requested by a former officebearer who confessed to or was determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct leading up to suspension and deposition from office:
1. Reinstatement to office shall be denied to individuals who:
a. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct against a minor.
b. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct against more than one victim in a single church or community.
c. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct in more than one community or church.
d. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct and other related ungodly conduct.
Examples of related ungodly conduct include but are not limited to engaging in adult or child pornography, engaging a prostitute for sexual contact, exhibitionistic or voyeuristic behavior, attending a nudist camp, sexual addiction, and so forth.
2. Councils and classes shall not reinstate a former officebearer suspended or deposed for sexual misconduct or ungodly conduct not covered in items 1, a-d without receiving the advice of legal counsel concerning the church’s liability and the advice of a Christian licensed psychologist concerning the likelihood of an officebearer’s reoffending.
Note: In Church Order Article 84 and its Supplement, the expression sexual misconduct is defined as: The sexual exploitation of a parishioner, minor or adult, regardless of age or consent, for the purposes of sexual gratification and maintaining control over the person. The expression determined abuser is defined as: An officebearer who either confesses to or is adjudicated to be guilty of sexual misconduct by a court of competent jurisdiction or an ecclesiastical assembly.
on June 15 @22:25 there was a posting in this discussion by "nobody"... who is also named Ken. he hed been a fairly active "poster" on the network and I had been missing his posts, and somewhere on one of the forums I saw that in May he had requested his account to be closed... so when I saw the June post, but under the name "nobody" instead of Ken. I was glad he was still involved. however... I haven't seen anything from him again, and praying he's ok...
so Ken, if you read this... I miss your thoughts, and you are not a nobody...
ok... I was going to post something on Mt. St. Helens, and the network was denying access the other day, so will try to do that later...
i tried to reply specifically to this post, but somehow messed up... anyway, providential timing is amazing! and I'm glad you are on the network and sharing your thoughts as well! look forward to "hearing" more from you Ken Van Dellen =).
I almost forgot, but in another blog this topic came up which reminded me I was going to post this article on Mt. St. Helens and its implications on evolution and for creation..
wow... just caught up on this topic and it's posts... well, what blows my brain is the concept of a God Who always was, is and will be, never had to be created... He's the "Uncreated Creator"... . Then let's throw the angelic and demonic beings in to make it more interesting... when where they created, and how did lucifer fall, how was hell "created" etc... for me, believing creation is easy after these.
so if we struggle with the concept that God made the world like He shares with us in His Word in Genesis, what do we do with believing in a God, that never had to be created and is perfectly good, all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present, 3 in One Being, etc.? That's the BIG step of faith for me... my mind cannot compute it...my mind "chokes" to borrow a crc pastor's phrase. To me, creation is an easy step, if we are believing in an almighty, powerful God, Who has always existed, breathes light at 186,000 miles per SECOND... (yes, that probably caused quite a bang! I could feel the concussion of a little M80 explosion) He cares about and numbers every hair on our head... mind boggling as well... has our earth spinning @ 1000 miles per hour and I'm not sure what word to use for us hurtling around the sun @ a wild and crazy 67,000 miles an hour ((93Million mile radius x 2 X pi)/365/24hrs) and we're not even aware of it!
so here's my 5 loaves and 2 fishes worth... if it's from the LORD, He will multiply it... last year my 10 year old son had to do a report for school, it was on Mt. St. Helens... in doing the research with him, we discovered that what happened in seconds/minutes through the explosion, later looked like it had happened over millions of years... I will try to find the article on this...
second, I have had Divine timing of events in my life, where the statistical probability is off the charts. Not just once, but often... If this happened once in a lifetime, we could statistically accept it, but this is a fairly common part of my walk with Him as I follow the leading of His Spirit. He surprises me with the most amazing timing that can only be orchestrated by Him. So, what do you do with promptings by the Holy Spirit? No scientific explanation for that.
Is believing in creation ridiculous, irrational? I call it super-rational. God is often very counter-intutitive. just think about tithing in a bad economy...don't make no sense... Oh, wait, that means it does, but only because God is part of the equation.
Just curious what those with the evolutionist view think about the molecular structure of laminin? I will try to find something to post on that as well, but encourage you all to look it up.
lastly, I think it is interesting that there seems to be a lot of confusion about how the world started and how it's going to end... these discussions are interesting, and I'm surprised at the energy put into this discussion, but as "nobody" posted...
" You people realize this isn't that important to what we are supposed to be doing? ""
so, if intellectuals think I am very "silly" and simplistic, I'm totally ok with that... should they be ashamed that we are part of the same denomination? I hope not.. .we need to honor the Church (not science), the Church is the Bride of Christ, and Jesus is very protective of His Bride. I have struggled with denominational concerns on other issues, and still do, but the answer is not attacking each other, the Church. Our battle is NOT against flesh and blood aka each other, it is against the enemy and he is the father of lies, it is his native language (Eph. 6/John 8). as someone discussed in an earlier post, every world view (that is not 100% God's), has some truth in it... but then the enemy twists and perverts the rest.
ps. Ken, aka "nobody" - glad to see you're still here and posting =)
BOQ...I mean, if a person is willing to lie to self, a spouse, a church council, a congregation and to God, why do we expect that person will be honest and transparent in an accountability group? EOQ
Oh wow, does that hit the nail on the head.... what I have found in researching porn issues, is that those with addictions are experts at lying, deceiving and manipulating... unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, they go hand in hand...
I believe one of the ways the Church is meant to expose these "secret sins" is through prophetic revelation from the Holy Spirit. Due to our cessationist history, we/crc are not very experienced in that for a number of reasons. I would recommend reading "Surprised by the Voice of God" by Jack Deere a pastor trained in cessationism, who had his spiritual eyes and ears opened to the Spirit (so he's no longer cessationist). In the first chapter he shares a testimony of how God gave him the word "pornography" (a word of knowledge) when he was meeting with a student, and through that the student confessed and the LORD used that to free the student from his sexual sins.
I look forward to when when the Church is walking more fully in the gifts of the Spirit, including the revelatory supernatural gifts, so the the Bride will be pure, without spot or wrinkle.
thx. for the invitation for input here... I know i'm a bit late to this thread, and classes are already back in session for the fall...
I'm a lay leader, and when/if my pastor/spiritual leaders have a lifestyle of praying and fasting, my confidence in all the other areas/decisions will be much higher that they are walking in step with and sensitive and open to the leading of the Spirit. I believe the Spirit will help with whatever wisdom and insight they will need for whatever situation will arise, including using the potential gifts of other believers for certain situations, and that the leading of the Spirit will always be in line with the Word of God.
I will briefly discuss 3 areas that are connected to that, and it's possible these are already discussed in another class.
prayerlessness, The average time spent in prayer for 95% of believers is less than 5 minutes a day, and for pastors that average is 6-7 minutes/day. there are all kinds of statistics on this, and I believe there is currently a group (Denominational prayer leaders network?) that is working on connecting with seminary leaders to encourage an increased emphasis on prayer in their curriculum.
One of my theories on prayerlessness is because many churches no longer view/teach Song of Songs as an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, the Church... Song of Songs is a beautiful picture of that relationship (spiritual intimacy) if we are willing to work at understanding what each phrase symbolizes, instead of letting our culture influence what it means to us. (that's an entire discussion on its own ;)
and then there's the "practice" of fasting ;) that is often closely tied to prayer... I think that would be an interesting discussion as well!! Fasting is almost unheard of in today's church culture, and if brought up, the result is often strange looks along with "why in the world would we do that?" or "that's not for the NT church"
and a discussion on cessationism/continuationism of the gifts I think would be very insightful. What I have found is that "listening" prayer, that the Holy Spirit speaks and prompts today, is still considered a heresy by some, even though we/crc refuted cessationism back in 1973.
I love Psalm 91:1 NKJV Those who dwell in the secret place of the Most High (Elyon)... I have shared this concept of the secret place with others, and it often resonates.. I will encourage them to imagine their secret place, ie imagine a fort like you made as little child, or what often resonates for women is a secret garden, for some it might be a hay barn, or the woods, or the hills, it is whatever is meaningful and safe for you and Jesus.
I had the privilege of sharing this concept last week with a women's bible study at the local Christian Health Care center, and the day before I was there, I was getting some ideas for flowers for church that week and was at a home and garden store and came across this precious sign... it was 2 little girls in bare feet and sweet little dresses, running down a path toward a walled, enclosed garden... and the sign said "Secret Garden ahead"... what it says to me, is that we run to meet with Jesus in our "secret" place, whatever that might look like for each of us... that sign is now hanging over my desk, one of the areas I meet with Jesus, and spend time in His Word.
I had already planned on sharing on Psalm 91:1 and the secret place, and so this literal "sign" was a wonderful confirmation on sharing that message. The LORD also confirmed that message through one of the health care workers that sat in on the study with us.
I personally love the Secret Garden image, it also reminds me of Song of Songs 4:12-5:1, and if we are open to this book of the Bible being an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, us, His Church, it expands on this concept of the garden.
When I saw the comment yesterday re the BOT's request, I had an immediate burden to pray for them... I don't think I've ever prayed specifically for the CRC BOT...often pray for the pastors and elders and council and teachers and leaders in general and Synod come every June...but not specifically for this group...
I cringe when we try to use intellectual "human" ways to orchestrate Kingdom dynamics instead of letting the Spirit guide us with fasting and prayer...Have we ever tried selecting our leaders after prayer AND fasting?!?! (Acts 13:1-3, vs2 - As they ministered to the LORD and FASTED, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.")... not very intellectual, but amazing results (trust me, our elders did this last year with calling a new pastor)... I just weep in desperation that we will become far more sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and fasting does help us be more sensitive as well as other things we don't understand... Listening to the Holy Spirit blows our intellect to bits... Be still, listen for that still, small voice... and then obey!
I know merit is a starting place for leader selection, but as followers of Christ, we need to go much deeper than that and look at eligible leaders from a spiritual perspective...ie. are they Spirit led, men and women of prayer (like 2+ hours a day -no, the Jesuits spirituality on the run of 15 minutes a day does not usually cut it, unless that is a specific call God gave you), with a close relationship with Jesus, that have been obedient in their walk with the LORD... we often assume this of course when someone is talented and successful, but do we actually ask about their prayer life, what is a recent testimony of God working in their life, how they are growing in their relationship with God... and then after prayer and fasting, listen for the Spirit's leading...make sense!?!??! hahahaha...only in a God way....
Posted in: Overtures 3 & 4: Laying Out the Debate
BOQ.. which is to say that Classis are regularly appointed according to geography and have never been previously created on the basis of a theological barrier or divide. EOQ
where I struggle is this theological barrier/divide seems to be totally ok at the denominational level, but then not ok at a classical level... how can we apply this to one level, and totally ignore it at a higher/broader level?
isn't this how the CRC broke away from the RCA in the first place?
maybe our "denominations" should also be regional instead of based on theological, etc. differences.... maybe we need to be looking at a bigger dimension than just classis... it seems we are ok with gathering all the "like" minded denominations into alliances.... and that's not by region/geography... so which one is it? is the Church to be expressed by region or by like mindedness? Which one does Scripture support?
Posted in: Overtures 3 & 4: Laying Out the Debate
bless your heart Meg for your response... that is a great quote, and it was also the motto of the Moravians in the 1700's, who if you aren't familiar with them, they are worth researching...
this is an amazing thing i have found, when I pray with brothers and sisters in the LORD, from all different streams, we are almost always in unity... as soon as we finish praying and start talking, I quickly realize we have some different theological pages... but yet, when we pray together in the Name of Jesus, there is a definite sense of unity.
What is interesting to me, is how in Revelation, the 7 churches are addressed by geographical area. I think God intended us to have to work through our theological differences of understanding (iron sharpens iron), and yes, when it is heresy, then to deal with it and repent, again using the letters to the 7 churches as examples.. however, what is heresy, and what is not, can be a difficult question, and the Word of God, under the enlightenment of the Spirit, is our plumbline. The confusion comes in with interpretation/understanding. (This hits so close to home, as I just got an email re this very thing, so sorry if I'm vague and just scratching the surface on this, but it's a huge topic)
and your last question:
And, regardless, how are we tasked to demonstrate charity?
honoring each other is huge (Rom 12:10), we honor the Church, as the Bride of Christ, and so we honor each other as brothers and sisters in the LORD.
a second thing that has helped me, is knowing that our battle is not against each other, not against flesh and blood, but it's against the enemy who is trying to steal, kill, destroy, divide and deceive.
but here's our assurance!! Greater is He that is in us...
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=victors+crown&mid=6EEDEC9F617436DB646F6EEDEC9F617436DB646F&view=detail&FORM=VIRE3
Posted in: Overtures 3 & 4: Laying Out the Debate
LORD, pour Your love into the hearts of Your followers, by Your Spirit, so that we can be one, as You and the Father are one!
my hope and prayer for Synod, is that there will be such an outpouring of the Spirit for unity... going back to the Moravians, they had many struggles over doctrine - far more diverse than what we're wrestling with here, as they had religious refugees from various streams (moravian brethren / catholic / protestant / lutheran / etc) all coming together to live in Hernhut, close to Count Nicolaus von Zinzendorf's estate (he wrote #513 in Gray Psalter - Christian Hearts in Love United - works well with tune of Come all Christians be Committed as an option). They were so divided that they walked to church/communion on separate sides of the street. at one point, through prayer and research led by Zinzendorf, a covenant of unity was drawn up, and shortly thereafter the Holy Spirit fell upon them in one of the most powerful outpourings since Pentecost. I think most of us would love for such an outpouring to fall on the crc / synod / michigan /any state / any congregation !!
here's a quote from the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Church
BOQ The refugees established a new village called Herrnhut, about 2 miles (3 km) from Berthelsdorf. The town initially grew steadily, but major religious disagreements emerged and by 1727 the community was divided into warring factions. Count Zinzendorf worked to bring about unity in the town and the Brotherly Agreement was adopted by the community on 12 May 1727. This is considered the beginning of the renewal. Then, on 13 August 1727 the community underwent a dramatic transformation when the inhabitants of Herrnhut "learned to love one another", following an experience that they attributed to a visitation of the Holy Spirit, similar to that recorded in the Bible on the day of Pentecost. EOQ
warring factions hmmm? can we relate?
again, their history is fascinating, as the Moravian Brethren come from the pre-reformers of Jan Hus and John Comenius... I encourage you to do your own research on them... maybe this should be mandatory reading for synod delegates =)
Posted in: Of Rob Ford and Pastors
RE: CO supplement to Article 84 (this is what I meant to refer to in my previous reply, but I simply said CO article 84)... it seems to me from researching this a while back, the office bearer can be given a 2nd chance unless the "sexual misconduct" is against a minor (1.a.) than it's one strike they are out. But if there is more than one incident of "sexual misconduct" or one incident of "sexual misconduct" AND one incident of ungodly behavior (1.d.), then the door for reinstatement is closed. (any experts on CO, such as Henry DeMoor, feel free to correct or affirm my understanding of this =)
One of the questions I have, and the CO is not clear to me (again CO experts please clarify!), is... what if there are several known incidents of "ungodly behavior" (so there is an indication of a pattern), but not any known "sexual misconduct"? I think with exhibitionism/voyeurism/prostitution we already know that if caught, this will result in a public criminal charge, that will most likely follow the officebearer for the rest of their life through complete background checks. So, what about the ungodly conduct (such as looking at/engaging in porn) that does not result in a criminal charge, but where there have been several incidents for the same officebearer? Does the CO equate "engaging" as in "habitually" viewing", viewing and physically "reacting/responding/etc" or any "intentional" viewing? If there is any information on this anywhere, it would be helpful to know.
FYI...
Supplement, Article 84
Regulations for Reinstatement of Office Bearers Guilty of Sexual Misconduct
When reinstatement is requested by a former officebearer who confessed to or was determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct leading up to suspension and deposition from office:
1. Reinstatement to office shall be denied to individuals who:
a. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct against a minor.
b. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct against more than one victim in a single church or community.
c. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct in more than one community or church.
d. Confessed to or are determined to be guilty of sexual misconduct and other related ungodly conduct.
Examples of related ungodly conduct include but are not limited to engaging in adult or child pornography, engaging a prostitute for sexual contact, exhibitionistic or voyeuristic behavior, attending a nudist camp, sexual addiction, and so forth.
2. Councils and classes shall not reinstate a former officebearer suspended or deposed for sexual misconduct or ungodly conduct not covered in items 1, a-d without receiving the advice of legal counsel concerning the church’s liability and the advice of a Christian licensed psychologist concerning the likelihood of an officebearer’s reoffending.
Note: In Church Order Article 84 and its Supplement, the expression sexual misconduct is defined as: The sexual exploitation of a parishioner, minor or adult, regardless of age or consent, for the purposes of sexual gratification and maintaining control over the person. The expression determined abuser is defined as: An officebearer who either confesses to or is adjudicated to be guilty of sexual misconduct by a court of competent jurisdiction or an ecclesiastical assembly.
(Acts of Synod 2004, pp. 611-12)
Posted in: Genesis - Again!
on June 15 @22:25 there was a posting in this discussion by "nobody"... who is also named Ken. he hed been a fairly active "poster" on the network and I had been missing his posts, and somewhere on one of the forums I saw that in May he had requested his account to be closed... so when I saw the June post, but under the name "nobody" instead of Ken. I was glad he was still involved. however... I haven't seen anything from him again, and praying he's ok...
so Ken, if you read this... I miss your thoughts, and you are not a nobody...
ok... I was going to post something on Mt. St. Helens, and the network was denying access the other day, so will try to do that later...
Posted in: Genesis - Again!
i tried to reply specifically to this post, but somehow messed up... anyway, providential timing is amazing! and I'm glad you are on the network and sharing your thoughts as well! look forward to "hearing" more from you Ken Van Dellen =).
Posted in: Genesis - Again!
I almost forgot, but in another blog this topic came up which reminded me I was going to post this article on Mt. St. Helens and its implications on evolution and for creation..
http://nwcreation.net/mtsthelens.html
Posted in: Genesis - Again!
wow... just caught up on this topic and it's posts... well, what blows my brain is the concept of a God Who always was, is and will be, never had to be created... He's the "Uncreated Creator"... . Then let's throw the angelic and demonic beings in to make it more interesting... when where they created, and how did lucifer fall, how was hell "created" etc... for me, believing creation is easy after these.
so if we struggle with the concept that God made the world like He shares with us in His Word in Genesis, what do we do with believing in a God, that never had to be created and is perfectly good, all powerful, all knowing, everywhere present, 3 in One Being, etc.? That's the BIG step of faith for me... my mind cannot compute it...my mind "chokes" to borrow a crc pastor's phrase. To me, creation is an easy step, if we are believing in an almighty, powerful God, Who has always existed, breathes light at 186,000 miles per SECOND... (yes, that probably caused quite a bang! I could feel the concussion of a little M80 explosion) He cares about and numbers every hair on our head... mind boggling as well... has our earth spinning @ 1000 miles per hour and I'm not sure what word to use for us hurtling around the sun @ a wild and crazy 67,000 miles an hour ((93Million mile radius x 2 X pi)/365/24hrs) and we're not even aware of it!
so here's my 5 loaves and 2 fishes worth... if it's from the LORD, He will multiply it... last year my 10 year old son had to do a report for school, it was on Mt. St. Helens... in doing the research with him, we discovered that what happened in seconds/minutes through the explosion, later looked like it had happened over millions of years... I will try to find the article on this...
second, I have had Divine timing of events in my life, where the statistical probability is off the charts. Not just once, but often... If this happened once in a lifetime, we could statistically accept it, but this is a fairly common part of my walk with Him as I follow the leading of His Spirit. He surprises me with the most amazing timing that can only be orchestrated by Him. So, what do you do with promptings by the Holy Spirit? No scientific explanation for that.
Is believing in creation ridiculous, irrational? I call it super-rational. God is often very counter-intutitive. just think about tithing in a bad economy...don't make no sense... Oh, wait, that means it does, but only because God is part of the equation.
Just curious what those with the evolutionist view think about the molecular structure of laminin? I will try to find something to post on that as well, but encourage you all to look it up.
lastly, I think it is interesting that there seems to be a lot of confusion about how the world started and how it's going to end... these discussions are interesting, and I'm surprised at the energy put into this discussion, but as "nobody" posted...
" You people realize this isn't that important to what we are supposed to be doing? ""
so, if intellectuals think I am very "silly" and simplistic, I'm totally ok with that... should they be ashamed that we are part of the same denomination? I hope not.. .we need to honor the Church (not science), the Church is the Bride of Christ, and Jesus is very protective of His Bride. I have struggled with denominational concerns on other issues, and still do, but the answer is not attacking each other, the Church. Our battle is NOT against flesh and blood aka each other, it is against the enemy and he is the father of lies, it is his native language (Eph. 6/John 8). as someone discussed in an earlier post, every world view (that is not 100% God's), has some truth in it... but then the enemy twists and perverts the rest.
ps. Ken, aka "nobody" - glad to see you're still here and posting =)
Posted in: Accountability
BOQ...I mean, if a person is willing to lie to self, a spouse, a church council, a congregation and to God, why do we expect that person will be honest and transparent in an accountability group? EOQ
Oh wow, does that hit the nail on the head.... what I have found in researching porn issues, is that those with addictions are experts at lying, deceiving and manipulating... unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, they go hand in hand...
I believe one of the ways the Church is meant to expose these "secret sins" is through prophetic revelation from the Holy Spirit. Due to our cessationist history, we/crc are not very experienced in that for a number of reasons. I would recommend reading "Surprised by the Voice of God" by Jack Deere a pastor trained in cessationism, who had his spiritual eyes and ears opened to the Spirit (so he's no longer cessationist). In the first chapter he shares a testimony of how God gave him the word "pornography" (a word of knowledge) when he was meeting with a student, and through that the student confessed and the LORD used that to free the student from his sexual sins.
I look forward to when when the Church is walking more fully in the gifts of the Spirit, including the revelatory supernatural gifts, so the the Bride will be pure, without spot or wrinkle.
Posted in: Leadership in Ministry Course - Your Input Needed
thx. for the invitation for input here... I know i'm a bit late to this thread, and classes are already back in session for the fall...
I'm a lay leader, and when/if my pastor/spiritual leaders have a lifestyle of praying and fasting, my confidence in all the other areas/decisions will be much higher that they are walking in step with and sensitive and open to the leading of the Spirit. I believe the Spirit will help with whatever wisdom and insight they will need for whatever situation will arise, including using the potential gifts of other believers for certain situations, and that the leading of the Spirit will always be in line with the Word of God.
I will briefly discuss 3 areas that are connected to that, and it's possible these are already discussed in another class.
prayerlessness, The average time spent in prayer for 95% of believers is less than 5 minutes a day, and for pastors that average is 6-7 minutes/day. there are all kinds of statistics on this, and I believe there is currently a group (Denominational prayer leaders network?) that is working on connecting with seminary leaders to encourage an increased emphasis on prayer in their curriculum.
One of my theories on prayerlessness is because many churches no longer view/teach Song of Songs as an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, the Church... Song of Songs is a beautiful picture of that relationship (spiritual intimacy) if we are willing to work at understanding what each phrase symbolizes, instead of letting our culture influence what it means to us. (that's an entire discussion on its own ;)
and then there's the "practice" of fasting ;) that is often closely tied to prayer... I think that would be an interesting discussion as well!! Fasting is almost unheard of in today's church culture, and if brought up, the result is often strange looks along with "why in the world would we do that?" or "that's not for the NT church"
and a discussion on cessationism/continuationism of the gifts I think would be very insightful. What I have found is that "listening" prayer, that the Holy Spirit speaks and prompts today, is still considered a heresy by some, even though we/crc refuted cessationism back in 1973.
hope that makes sense!
again, thanks for asking =)
Posted in: Sacred Space at Home
I love Psalm 91:1 NKJV Those who dwell in the secret place of the Most High (Elyon)... I have shared this concept of the secret place with others, and it often resonates.. I will encourage them to imagine their secret place, ie imagine a fort like you made as little child, or what often resonates for women is a secret garden, for some it might be a hay barn, or the woods, or the hills, it is whatever is meaningful and safe for you and Jesus.
I had the privilege of sharing this concept last week with a women's bible study at the local Christian Health Care center, and the day before I was there, I was getting some ideas for flowers for church that week and was at a home and garden store and came across this precious sign... it was 2 little girls in bare feet and sweet little dresses, running down a path toward a walled, enclosed garden... and the sign said "Secret Garden ahead"... what it says to me, is that we run to meet with Jesus in our "secret" place, whatever that might look like for each of us... that sign is now hanging over my desk, one of the areas I meet with Jesus, and spend time in His Word.
I had already planned on sharing on Psalm 91:1 and the secret place, and so this literal "sign" was a wonderful confirmation on sharing that message. The LORD also confirmed that message through one of the health care workers that sat in on the study with us.
I personally love the Secret Garden image, it also reminds me of Song of Songs 4:12-5:1, and if we are open to this book of the Bible being an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, us, His Church, it expands on this concept of the garden.
Posted in: The Love of God in Belhar?
When I saw the comment yesterday re the BOT's request, I had an immediate burden to pray for them... I don't think I've ever prayed specifically for the CRC BOT...often pray for the pastors and elders and council and teachers and leaders in general and Synod come every June...but not specifically for this group...
I cringe when we try to use intellectual "human" ways to orchestrate Kingdom dynamics instead of letting the Spirit guide us with fasting and prayer...Have we ever tried selecting our leaders after prayer AND fasting?!?! (Acts 13:1-3, vs2 - As they ministered to the LORD and FASTED, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.")... not very intellectual, but amazing results (trust me, our elders did this last year with calling a new pastor)... I just weep in desperation that we will become far more sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and fasting does help us be more sensitive as well as other things we don't understand... Listening to the Holy Spirit blows our intellect to bits... Be still, listen for that still, small voice... and then obey!
I know merit is a starting place for leader selection, but as followers of Christ, we need to go much deeper than that and look at eligible leaders from a spiritual perspective...ie. are they Spirit led, men and women of prayer (like 2+ hours a day -no, the Jesuits spirituality on the run of 15 minutes a day does not usually cut it, unless that is a specific call God gave you), with a close relationship with Jesus, that have been obedient in their walk with the LORD... we often assume this of course when someone is talented and successful, but do we actually ask about their prayer life, what is a recent testimony of God working in their life, how they are growing in their relationship with God... and then after prayer and fasting, listen for the Spirit's leading...make sense!?!??! hahahaha...only in a God way....