I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
BOQ...I mean, if a person is willing to lie to self, a spouse, a church council, a congregation and to God, why do we expect that person will be honest and transparent in an accountability group? EOQ
Oh wow, does that hit the nail on the head.... what I have found in researching porn issues, is that those with addictions are experts at lying, deceiving and manipulating... unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, they go hand in hand...
I believe one of the ways the Church is meant to expose these "secret sins" is through prophetic revelation from the Holy Spirit. Due to our cessationist history, we/crc are not very experienced in that for a number of reasons. I would recommend reading "Surprised by the Voice of God" by Jack Deere a pastor trained in cessationism, who had his spiritual eyes and ears opened to the Spirit (so he's no longer cessationist). In the first chapter he shares a testimony of how God gave him the word "pornography" (a word of knowledge) when he was meeting with a student, and through that the student confessed and the LORD used that to free the student from his sexual sins.
I look forward to when when the Church is walking more fully in the gifts of the Spirit, including the revelatory supernatural gifts, so the the Bride will be pure, without spot or wrinkle.
thx. for the invitation for input here... I know i'm a bit late to this thread, and classes are already back in session for the fall...
I'm a lay leader, and when/if my pastor/spiritual leaders have a lifestyle of praying and fasting, my confidence in all the other areas/decisions will be much higher that they are walking in step with and sensitive and open to the leading of the Spirit. I believe the Spirit will help with whatever wisdom and insight they will need for whatever situation will arise, including using the potential gifts of other believers for certain situations, and that the leading of the Spirit will always be in line with the Word of God.
I will briefly discuss 3 areas that are connected to that, and it's possible these are already discussed in another class.
prayerlessness, The average time spent in prayer for 95% of believers is less than 5 minutes a day, and for pastors that average is 6-7 minutes/day. there are all kinds of statistics on this, and I believe there is currently a group (Denominational prayer leaders network?) that is working on connecting with seminary leaders to encourage an increased emphasis on prayer in their curriculum.
One of my theories on prayerlessness is because many churches no longer view/teach Song of Songs as an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, the Church... Song of Songs is a beautiful picture of that relationship (spiritual intimacy) if we are willing to work at understanding what each phrase symbolizes, instead of letting our culture influence what it means to us. (that's an entire discussion on its own ;)
and then there's the "practice" of fasting ;) that is often closely tied to prayer... I think that would be an interesting discussion as well!! Fasting is almost unheard of in today's church culture, and if brought up, the result is often strange looks along with "why in the world would we do that?" or "that's not for the NT church"
and a discussion on cessationism/continuationism of the gifts I think would be very insightful. What I have found is that "listening" prayer, that the Holy Spirit speaks and prompts today, is still considered a heresy by some, even though we/crc refuted cessationism back in 1973.
I love Psalm 91:1 NKJV Those who dwell in the secret place of the Most High (Elyon)... I have shared this concept of the secret place with others, and it often resonates.. I will encourage them to imagine their secret place, ie imagine a fort like you made as little child, or what often resonates for women is a secret garden, for some it might be a hay barn, or the woods, or the hills, it is whatever is meaningful and safe for you and Jesus.
I had the privilege of sharing this concept last week with a women's bible study at the local Christian Health Care center, and the day before I was there, I was getting some ideas for flowers for church that week and was at a home and garden store and came across this precious sign... it was 2 little girls in bare feet and sweet little dresses, running down a path toward a walled, enclosed garden... and the sign said "Secret Garden ahead"... what it says to me, is that we run to meet with Jesus in our "secret" place, whatever that might look like for each of us... that sign is now hanging over my desk, one of the areas I meet with Jesus, and spend time in His Word.
I had already planned on sharing on Psalm 91:1 and the secret place, and so this literal "sign" was a wonderful confirmation on sharing that message. The LORD also confirmed that message through one of the health care workers that sat in on the study with us.
I personally love the Secret Garden image, it also reminds me of Song of Songs 4:12-5:1, and if we are open to this book of the Bible being an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, us, His Church, it expands on this concept of the garden.
that was Dallas Willard, as interestingly, I just read about that concept in a book earlier today =) he considered silence and solitude the 2 most radical discplines of the Christian life. and Henri Nouwen said that "without solitude it is almost impossible to live a spiritual life."
interestingly the Native Americans tended to live in sync with their natural rhythm but it is not looked upon with much affirmation and usually to their detriment by those that don't follow their natural rhythms... most of us would quite likely get fired and lose our jobs if we did live in accordance with our natural rhythm... if you are self employed, you have much more flexibility with your work schedule...
what was fascinating to me from my reading today, and I had never thought of this before, was that while the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, they worked 365 days a year, every day was the same, there was no Sabbath and the command to honor it had not been given yet... it was after they were freed that God gave them the gift of a day of rest via Mt. Sinai.
When I saw the comment yesterday re the BOT's request, I had an immediate burden to pray for them... I don't think I've ever prayed specifically for the CRC BOT...often pray for the pastors and elders and council and teachers and leaders in general and Synod come every June...but not specifically for this group...
I cringe when we try to use intellectual "human" ways to orchestrate Kingdom dynamics instead of letting the Spirit guide us with fasting and prayer...Have we ever tried selecting our leaders after prayer AND fasting?!?! (Acts 13:1-3, vs2 - As they ministered to the LORD and FASTED, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.")... not very intellectual, but amazing results (trust me, our elders did this last year with calling a new pastor)... I just weep in desperation that we will become far more sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and fasting does help us be more sensitive as well as other things we don't understand... Listening to the Holy Spirit blows our intellect to bits... Be still, listen for that still, small voice... and then obey!
I know merit is a starting place for leader selection, but as followers of Christ, we need to go much deeper than that and look at eligible leaders from a spiritual perspective...ie. are they Spirit led, men and women of prayer (like 2+ hours a day -no, the Jesuits spirituality on the run of 15 minutes a day does not usually cut it, unless that is a specific call God gave you), with a close relationship with Jesus, that have been obedient in their walk with the LORD... we often assume this of course when someone is talented and successful, but do we actually ask about their prayer life, what is a recent testimony of God working in their life, how they are growing in their relationship with God... and then after prayer and fasting, listen for the Spirit's leading...make sense!?!??! hahahaha...only in a God way....
I apologize for setting the Jesuits in a negative light...believe you me, that is not my intent...I love their spirituality and "mystic" experiences, their awareness of God with every breath...yes, our Catholic brothers and sisters are not far apart from us in many ways and it is a treat to worship with them from time to time....It would be awesome if we could really practice it the way it was meant, we would see amazing results...this world would be a different place.... my concern, since the Banner article does not fully explain the Jesuit practice and most of us are not as disciplined as the Jesuits were (and get weirded out over mystic experiences), is that the general reader might assume that 15 minutes a day with God is enough, and the rest spent with other activity, with not much thought of our relationship with God again. Again, 15 minutes of focused quiet time might be someone's personal call when they practice the Presence of God as Brother Lawrence does. I personally know I need more than 15 minutes a day of quiet time with Him in the secret place, and have found that many leaders and intercessors I pray with need far more than 15 minutes of quiet time with Him as well... It really comes down to a deep concern over prayerlessness in the church and in leadership, which when people/churches are honest with themselves, is a problem... but no one likes to 'fess up to it... I have seen amazing turn around when people vocalized it and admitted that they really struggle with prayer... God loves to answer the prayer "Lord, teach us to pray" as the disciples requested...they didn't ask Him to show how to serve or preach but how to pray ....so, LORD, help our congregations/churches become houses of prayer for You.
Hey David... first welcome to the network... and next... your post here and your info on your personal page are fascinating to me, as one of the things on my heart is this dance between the charismatics and the more traditional streams... as we dance in step with the Holy Spirit... thx. for sharing your thoughts and experience...
both lines are biblical. (MVL... the PCUSA suggestion is "the love of God was MAGNIFIED!")
Isn't the wrath line in agreement with Romans 5:9 (and other scriptures as well)? and one of the most powerful and prevalent lines of scripture is His mercy/love/chesed endures forever... the contexts of when this line is quoted in scripture is incredible
His anger is but a moment, and His mercy/lovingkindness is eternal... He will not harbor anger forever.... but His love endures forever...
so whether we focus on His wrath or His love... thank God,along with our brothers and sisters in the PCUSA that our eternal salvation is in Christ alone! Worthy is the Lamb!
maybe for every one time we sing it with wrath, we should sing it 5 times with love, or just sing the verse 2x alternating this line
I might sing it the suggested PCUSA way next time =)
Rich, rich, rich discussions... somehow missed this one last month =), but that 's ok... It was immensely encouraging to read it now! Wonderful stuff!!
one comment on hearing the "Voice" within. a year or so ago, I was driving out in the county, and passed a farm, that I knew the family that lived there like 25-30 years ago. As i drove past, i thought about them, but then I kept thinking about them, which made me think, "LORD, do you want me to pray for them?" Well, I thought, if it's the LORD, or if it's me, it doesn't matter, because prayer is almost always a good thing, and definitely lines up with scripture, and in this situation it definitely won't hurt. So I spent a few minutes praying for that family, it was very vague because i hadn't seen them in over 20 years. and then forgot about it when I got to my destination.
The very next day, I ran into one of the daughters that I had gone to school with. and then had the opportunity to pray with her. Hmmm... somehow God was preparing me to meet her the very next day... haven't seen any of the family since.
Love the additional insight of "listening" with other believers... That is so what we're missing... because we haven't been "taught" how to hear, how to discern, how to test and how to confirm.
Love the addition of experience. I often share with people, that the Holy Spirit is an experience.
Love the comment about our emotions. King David was the most emotional guy there was, and the only person in the Bible called a man "after God's heart"! brings up our fear of "emotionalism" which is something we need to better understand the difference between experienceing our emotions and "emotionalism. Fervency is ok in at sporting events and concerts, but not in worship =(
Looking forward to and praying for the day, when we are more enthusiastic about worshipping the Sovereign, the Almighty, the LORD of Hosts, and our high praises ring out, and the sound will be "heard a long way off" (Ezra 3:13)
Hey James KA Smith... I remember reading your article in 2008 or 2009 and contacting you back then, because the few "reformed charismatics" seemed to be fairly isolated, and so was thankful that i wasn't the only one, or so it seemed...
just curious what you have experienced in the last 3 years since you wrote that article, but maybe I'll just have to get a copy of the thinking in tongues book.
One of the things that's on my heart, that when i re-read the dancing article, i was reminded of, is "high praise". For some reason, which I have yet to discover the why of it, the niv omitted the adjective "high" which I understand was a very specific Hebrew word "rowmemah" in Ps. 149:6. There are a few other instances where it seems the intensity was decreased in this translation, ie. Jude 3 contend for the faith, vs. earnestly contend found in the NKJV...
As someone pointed out, I think it was in one of these replies, we have been practically "binitarian' therefore minimizing"/quenching the Spirit. I hope that finally, after 40 years of not embracing the Holy Spirit, even though we had confessionally refuted cessationism in 1973 (Thank God! we did at least do that), I hope and pray that "now is the time of God's favor..."
Posted in: Accountability
BOQ...I mean, if a person is willing to lie to self, a spouse, a church council, a congregation and to God, why do we expect that person will be honest and transparent in an accountability group? EOQ
Oh wow, does that hit the nail on the head.... what I have found in researching porn issues, is that those with addictions are experts at lying, deceiving and manipulating... unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, they go hand in hand...
I believe one of the ways the Church is meant to expose these "secret sins" is through prophetic revelation from the Holy Spirit. Due to our cessationist history, we/crc are not very experienced in that for a number of reasons. I would recommend reading "Surprised by the Voice of God" by Jack Deere a pastor trained in cessationism, who had his spiritual eyes and ears opened to the Spirit (so he's no longer cessationist). In the first chapter he shares a testimony of how God gave him the word "pornography" (a word of knowledge) when he was meeting with a student, and through that the student confessed and the LORD used that to free the student from his sexual sins.
I look forward to when when the Church is walking more fully in the gifts of the Spirit, including the revelatory supernatural gifts, so the the Bride will be pure, without spot or wrinkle.
Posted in: Leadership in Ministry Course - Your Input Needed
thx. for the invitation for input here... I know i'm a bit late to this thread, and classes are already back in session for the fall...
I'm a lay leader, and when/if my pastor/spiritual leaders have a lifestyle of praying and fasting, my confidence in all the other areas/decisions will be much higher that they are walking in step with and sensitive and open to the leading of the Spirit. I believe the Spirit will help with whatever wisdom and insight they will need for whatever situation will arise, including using the potential gifts of other believers for certain situations, and that the leading of the Spirit will always be in line with the Word of God.
I will briefly discuss 3 areas that are connected to that, and it's possible these are already discussed in another class.
prayerlessness, The average time spent in prayer for 95% of believers is less than 5 minutes a day, and for pastors that average is 6-7 minutes/day. there are all kinds of statistics on this, and I believe there is currently a group (Denominational prayer leaders network?) that is working on connecting with seminary leaders to encourage an increased emphasis on prayer in their curriculum.
One of my theories on prayerlessness is because many churches no longer view/teach Song of Songs as an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, the Church... Song of Songs is a beautiful picture of that relationship (spiritual intimacy) if we are willing to work at understanding what each phrase symbolizes, instead of letting our culture influence what it means to us. (that's an entire discussion on its own ;)
and then there's the "practice" of fasting ;) that is often closely tied to prayer... I think that would be an interesting discussion as well!! Fasting is almost unheard of in today's church culture, and if brought up, the result is often strange looks along with "why in the world would we do that?" or "that's not for the NT church"
and a discussion on cessationism/continuationism of the gifts I think would be very insightful. What I have found is that "listening" prayer, that the Holy Spirit speaks and prompts today, is still considered a heresy by some, even though we/crc refuted cessationism back in 1973.
hope that makes sense!
again, thanks for asking =)
Posted in: Sacred Space at Home
I love Psalm 91:1 NKJV Those who dwell in the secret place of the Most High (Elyon)... I have shared this concept of the secret place with others, and it often resonates.. I will encourage them to imagine their secret place, ie imagine a fort like you made as little child, or what often resonates for women is a secret garden, for some it might be a hay barn, or the woods, or the hills, it is whatever is meaningful and safe for you and Jesus.
I had the privilege of sharing this concept last week with a women's bible study at the local Christian Health Care center, and the day before I was there, I was getting some ideas for flowers for church that week and was at a home and garden store and came across this precious sign... it was 2 little girls in bare feet and sweet little dresses, running down a path toward a walled, enclosed garden... and the sign said "Secret Garden ahead"... what it says to me, is that we run to meet with Jesus in our "secret" place, whatever that might look like for each of us... that sign is now hanging over my desk, one of the areas I meet with Jesus, and spend time in His Word.
I had already planned on sharing on Psalm 91:1 and the secret place, and so this literal "sign" was a wonderful confirmation on sharing that message. The LORD also confirmed that message through one of the health care workers that sat in on the study with us.
I personally love the Secret Garden image, it also reminds me of Song of Songs 4:12-5:1, and if we are open to this book of the Bible being an allegory between Jesus and His Bride, us, His Church, it expands on this concept of the garden.
Posted in: Working with Our Natural Rhythms Instead of Against Them
that was Dallas Willard, as interestingly, I just read about that concept in a book earlier today =) he considered silence and solitude the 2 most radical discplines of the Christian life. and Henri Nouwen said that "without solitude it is almost impossible to live a spiritual life."
interestingly the Native Americans tended to live in sync with their natural rhythm but it is not looked upon with much affirmation and usually to their detriment by those that don't follow their natural rhythms... most of us would quite likely get fired and lose our jobs if we did live in accordance with our natural rhythm... if you are self employed, you have much more flexibility with your work schedule...
what was fascinating to me from my reading today, and I had never thought of this before, was that while the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, they worked 365 days a year, every day was the same, there was no Sabbath and the command to honor it had not been given yet... it was after they were freed that God gave them the gift of a day of rest via Mt. Sinai.
Posted in: The Love of God in Belhar?
maybe this is really simplistic, but I'm good with Isaiah 58 for our confession on justice :)
Posted in: The Love of God in Belhar?
When I saw the comment yesterday re the BOT's request, I had an immediate burden to pray for them... I don't think I've ever prayed specifically for the CRC BOT...often pray for the pastors and elders and council and teachers and leaders in general and Synod come every June...but not specifically for this group...
I cringe when we try to use intellectual "human" ways to orchestrate Kingdom dynamics instead of letting the Spirit guide us with fasting and prayer...Have we ever tried selecting our leaders after prayer AND fasting?!?! (Acts 13:1-3, vs2 - As they ministered to the LORD and FASTED, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.")... not very intellectual, but amazing results (trust me, our elders did this last year with calling a new pastor)... I just weep in desperation that we will become far more sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and fasting does help us be more sensitive as well as other things we don't understand... Listening to the Holy Spirit blows our intellect to bits... Be still, listen for that still, small voice... and then obey!
I know merit is a starting place for leader selection, but as followers of Christ, we need to go much deeper than that and look at eligible leaders from a spiritual perspective...ie. are they Spirit led, men and women of prayer (like 2+ hours a day -no, the Jesuits spirituality on the run of 15 minutes a day does not usually cut it, unless that is a specific call God gave you), with a close relationship with Jesus, that have been obedient in their walk with the LORD... we often assume this of course when someone is talented and successful, but do we actually ask about their prayer life, what is a recent testimony of God working in their life, how they are growing in their relationship with God... and then after prayer and fasting, listen for the Spirit's leading...make sense!?!??! hahahaha...only in a God way....
Posted in: The Love of God in Belhar?
Here's the Banner article (March) re. spirituality on the run....Catch Your Breath: Parque Central
http://www.thebanner.org/departments/article/?id=3144
Posted in: The Love of God in Belhar?
I apologize for setting the Jesuits in a negative light...believe you me, that is not my intent...I love their spirituality and "mystic" experiences, their awareness of God with every breath...yes, our Catholic brothers and sisters are not far apart from us in many ways and it is a treat to worship with them from time to time....It would be awesome if we could really practice it the way it was meant, we would see amazing results...this world would be a different place.... my concern, since the Banner article does not fully explain the Jesuit practice and most of us are not as disciplined as the Jesuits were (and get weirded out over mystic experiences), is that the general reader might assume that 15 minutes a day with God is enough, and the rest spent with other activity, with not much thought of our relationship with God again. Again, 15 minutes of focused quiet time might be someone's personal call when they practice the Presence of God as Brother Lawrence does. I personally know I need more than 15 minutes a day of quiet time with Him in the secret place, and have found that many leaders and intercessors I pray with need far more than 15 minutes of quiet time with Him as well... It really comes down to a deep concern over prayerlessness in the church and in leadership, which when people/churches are honest with themselves, is a problem... but no one likes to 'fess up to it... I have seen amazing turn around when people vocalized it and admitted that they really struggle with prayer... God loves to answer the prayer "Lord, teach us to pray" as the disciples requested...they didn't ask Him to show how to serve or preach but how to pray ....so, LORD, help our congregations/churches become houses of prayer for You.
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
Hey David... first welcome to the network... and next... your post here and your info on your personal page are fascinating to me, as one of the things on my heart is this dance between the charismatics and the more traditional streams... as we dance in step with the Holy Spirit... thx. for sharing your thoughts and experience...
Posted in: Orthodoxy and In Christ Alone
both lines are biblical. (MVL... the PCUSA suggestion is "the love of God was MAGNIFIED!")
Isn't the wrath line in agreement with Romans 5:9 (and other scriptures as well)? and one of the most powerful and prevalent lines of scripture is His mercy/love/chesed endures forever... the contexts of when this line is quoted in scripture is incredible
His anger is but a moment, and His mercy/lovingkindness is eternal... He will not harbor anger forever.... but His love endures forever...
so whether we focus on His wrath or His love... thank God,along with our brothers and sisters in the PCUSA that our eternal salvation is in Christ alone! Worthy is the Lamb!
maybe for every one time we sing it with wrath, we should sing it 5 times with love, or just sing the verse 2x alternating this line
I might sing it the suggested PCUSA way next time =)
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
Rich, rich, rich discussions... somehow missed this one last month =), but that 's ok... It was immensely encouraging to read it now! Wonderful stuff!!
one comment on hearing the "Voice" within. a year or so ago, I was driving out in the county, and passed a farm, that I knew the family that lived there like 25-30 years ago. As i drove past, i thought about them, but then I kept thinking about them, which made me think, "LORD, do you want me to pray for them?" Well, I thought, if it's the LORD, or if it's me, it doesn't matter, because prayer is almost always a good thing, and definitely lines up with scripture, and in this situation it definitely won't hurt. So I spent a few minutes praying for that family, it was very vague because i hadn't seen them in over 20 years. and then forgot about it when I got to my destination.
The very next day, I ran into one of the daughters that I had gone to school with. and then had the opportunity to pray with her. Hmmm... somehow God was preparing me to meet her the very next day... haven't seen any of the family since.
Love the additional insight of "listening" with other believers... That is so what we're missing... because we haven't been "taught" how to hear, how to discern, how to test and how to confirm.
Love the addition of experience. I often share with people, that the Holy Spirit is an experience.
Love the comment about our emotions. King David was the most emotional guy there was, and the only person in the Bible called a man "after God's heart"! brings up our fear of "emotionalism" which is something we need to better understand the difference between experienceing our emotions and "emotionalism. Fervency is ok in at sporting events and concerts, but not in worship =(
Looking forward to and praying for the day, when we are more enthusiastic about worshipping the Sovereign, the Almighty, the LORD of Hosts, and our high praises ring out, and the sound will be "heard a long way off" (Ezra 3:13)
Posted in: What is a Reformed Charismatic?
Hey James KA Smith... I remember reading your article in 2008 or 2009 and contacting you back then, because the few "reformed charismatics" seemed to be fairly isolated, and so was thankful that i wasn't the only one, or so it seemed...
just curious what you have experienced in the last 3 years since you wrote that article, but maybe I'll just have to get a copy of the thinking in tongues book.
One of the things that's on my heart, that when i re-read the dancing article, i was reminded of, is "high praise". For some reason, which I have yet to discover the why of it, the niv omitted the adjective "high" which I understand was a very specific Hebrew word "rowmemah" in Ps. 149:6. There are a few other instances where it seems the intensity was decreased in this translation, ie. Jude 3 contend for the faith, vs. earnestly contend found in the NKJV...
As someone pointed out, I think it was in one of these replies, we have been practically "binitarian' therefore minimizing"/quenching the Spirit. I hope that finally, after 40 years of not embracing the Holy Spirit, even though we had confessionally refuted cessationism in 1973 (Thank God! we did at least do that), I hope and pray that "now is the time of God's favor..."