I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
A few years ago, I remember coming across an article about Deborah & Barak, that made me take another look at the understanding that I had picked up in the CRC over the years. What I found stunned me!
I read something that the glory was always going to go to a woman, but what I had been taught was that the glory was going to a woman BECAUSE Barak was a weak cowardly man & God was using a woman to humiliate and shame him for not being the man he was supposed to be. God was using a woman only because the men refused to step up and do what they were supposed to do!
“Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh… per NIVs
Many of the commentaries back up this idea of Barak being a timid coward… here are a few samples from the bible hub link above:
This was a prediction which Barak could not understand at the time; but the strain of it conveyed a rebuke of his unmanly fears. Per Jamieson Fausset Brown
To enter into the force of this we must remember the humble and almost down-trodden position of women in the East, so that it could hardly fail to be a humiliation to a great warrior to be told that the chief glory would fall to a woman. Per Ellicot
It is greatly to the honour of a conqueror to take the general of the enemy’s army, or to kill him with his own hand; which, she tells him, should be denied him, as a small punishment for his diffidence and reluctance to comply with her directions; and as he would not go without a woman, so a woman should take away his honour from him. per Benson
However, what I found was pretty much ALL the other versions used “nevertheless”, “notwithstanding” that doesn’t place the blame and shame on Barak. Several commentaries support this view:
Those who in God's name call others to their duty, should be ready to assist them in it. Barak values the satisfaction of his mind, and the good success of his enterprise, more than mere honour.Per Matthew Henry
Lest Barak’s hopes should soar too high, the prophetess foretells that the crowning glory shall not be his but Jael’s. It is doubtful whether any blame of Barak is implied: the words mean simply ‘thou wilt not gain the honours of the expedition.’ Per Cambridge Bible
So after taking another look at this story, the Hebrew used, along with looking at the Song of Deborah and Barak in Judges 5 where Barak is celebrating, not hanging his head in humiliation and shame, AND that Barak is listed as a HERO OF THE FAITH in Hebrews 11, I now believe this was a test for Barak, whether he would do what was right and needed to be done even if he didn’t get the glory…
I love Matthew Henry’s commentary on this:
Barak values the satisfaction of his mind, and the good success of his enterprise, more than mere honour.
HE PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS!
Judges 4:14-16
Then Deborah said to Barak, "Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him. At Barak's advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot. Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim, and all Sisera's troops fell by the sword; not a man was left. (NIV)
1 Samuel 12:11
Then the Lord sent Jerub-Baal, Barak, Jephthah and Samuel, and he delivered you from the hands of your enemies all around you, so that you lived in safety. (NIV)
Hebrews 11:32
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets. (NIV)
I now believe God always intended to give the glory to a woman, as part of the justice for the women of Israel who had been sexually violated by Sisera’s soldiers per Judges 5, a common practice in war per Sisera's mother.
I now see this as a powerful picture of men and women COLLABORATING and CELEBRATING together under the prophetic leading of the Spirit resulting in justice and safety for the common good & for the glory of God…
I continue to think about & wrestle with this & have been working through some of MW's videos... I did come across these responses to MW's videos which is far more than I could ever do! so here's a website with responses to MW videos #1-12 on women & the Church, including the 11.5 hr video on 1 Timothy 2!
Again, both sides have some things right & some things wrong, what both sides seem to get wrong is an obsession with who has authority in the church when Jesus says we are NOT to exercise authority over one another in the church, & also at the expense of what He DOES command, to love one another as He has loved us x 17 + >40 other one another commands in the NT! I am baffled by how these seem to have been almost completely ignored in the Church! Shifting our lens from authority over one another to the one another concept is going to take the Holy Spirit helping us see where we got off course as a catalyst for metanoia to change our hearts & minds!
So even if "authentein" means "exercise authority" (which I continue to doubt that is what Paul meant), no one, male or female, is supposed to exercise authority over their brothers & sisters in the Lord! That instead of sibling rivalry of who rules or submits, we are called to COLLABORATE together aka the 59 ONE ANOTHER commands!
I'm starting to read this bookThe Atlas Factor & a few days ago when it came, I just randomly flipped it open to page 95 & found it confirming & encouraging that the author shares about some "one anothers" on this page!!!
Thanks for your response Rob... lots of thoughts... I have a long, long list of laments of unfortunate, unbiblical, opposite of scripture, out of alignment with scripture stuff/traditions in the institutional church...
it's systemic - part of the institutional/denominational DNA... I grieve over the state of the Church & the CRC as that's my camp/expression/tradition that I've been a part of my entire life...I will save most of my response for later... but here's a few thoughts...
on God being pragmatic, I just found it humorous that God forming women for relationship, to help steward creation & be fruitful & multiply together, is not only beautiful, but so practical! The good fruit is often practical, helping others flourish & thrive!
Ok, on men & women being equal in inherent value... this is really only in the last 50 years - it's NOT the traditional view, it's a pretty recent view... before that, everything was pretty much through the lens of men being superior... read the church fathers, reformers, etc. there are some pretty demeaning quotes about women from them. Then there are the people that call themselves "comp" but are actually patriarchal... I would give Doug Wilson as an example, but I think he says he is patriarchal.
& I like to call it loving servantship (based on Phil 2/Matt 20) not leadership... & leading (verb) is not about a title or a position... it's about being an example (I have a compilation of verses on this) that convinces/persuades others by our character & love for one another to walk in God's Spirit & Truth together. Sometimes, that includes teaching/sharing/testifying/exhorting/etc.
3956pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956/pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Why did the church not endorse Women in Office until the 1970s when feminism arose?
They did ordain women for the first several hundred years... Marg's article gives examples of women serving as deacons & elders... so what happened?
QUOTE: Perhaps the biggest clue that a few churches (and not necessarily heterodox churches) had women elders is found in the Council of Laodicea. In a misguided move, this council banned the formal ordination of women who were elders, or priests, and who were serving their church as leaders.
It is not allowed for those women who are called ‘elders/ presbyters/ priests’ (presbytides) or ‘women presidents’ (prokathēmenai) to be ordained (kathistasthai) in the churches. Canon 11 of the Council of Laodicea (circa 360) EOQ from the following:
Bless your hearts! so thankful for your work! Appreciate this information! will be sharing with Classis PNW!
Also, would like to encourage you to consider adding to your list of resources several more books that have come out in the last few years... Rachael Denhollander/What is a Girl Worth; Mary DeMuth/#WETOO; Ruth Everhart/#MeToo Reckoning... also, this is an older one... The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (Johnson/Van Vonderen)...
and consider adding other presentations by Diane Langberg... she has some very insightful videos on her website & youtube... here's an example of a presentation on systemic narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
I am curious on the 2% of leaders abuse their power stat... what I've found is significantly higher... ie. various surveys results indicate that 30-40% of pastors have had inappropriate sexual activity/contact with someone (this is what I call abuse of power on the individual level). In the Catholic church, Richard Sipe (former priest, worked w Catholic clergy for 30 years as a mental health professional) estimated 50% of the leaders were not celibate based on his work... with 6%-20% acted out on molesting children... the rest of the sexual abuse of power has been with adults... which has barely been recognized yet in the Catholic scandal. This doesn't even address non-sexual abuses of power/lording it over/controlling & manipulative leadership on an individual level which happens to all different degrees.
Then the percentage of those who abuse power (or are negligent with their authority) grows with the response of leadership that does not hold the leader accountable and instead responds with some form of "circle the wagons" , cover up, damage control, collusion, you get the idea... (this is what I call abuse of power on the institutional or systemic level). again, the 30%-40% does not include those who spiritually abuse in other ways such as via manipulation, domineering/lording it over leadership, or using political power plays and posturing to influence and intimidate... it's quite likely the same 30-40% who have been sexually inappropriate are doing this as well, but only God knows the percentage of those who abuse their power in other ways besides sexual assault, to control, and to cover up and protect leadership at the expense of those harmed, the victims who are often treated as expendable, compared to the leader.
in my experience, conversations with clergy about this response (or lack of response) by leadership are NOT welcomed by most (I do recognize a better response from women leaders generally speaking, but that's not a given either). Hopefully this is changing... in 2014 Synod DID adopt the recommendation "abuse is acknowledged as an important issue and can be freely discussed". Sounds good on paper, but to what extent that has been actually happening is very debatable... there's a lot of times where the response from leadership is silence and the advocates, victims and families who speak about it are treated as a persona non grata... but that's an entire discussion on it's own.
oh wait... i wrote an overture for that reason... http://dojustice.crcna.org/article/story-behind-abuse-overture
Wes' story is heartbreaking, and his family still struggles and have been deeply affected with what happened and the harmful response of leadership at all levels. Wes found his healing and peace on July 7, 2006, but his family still hurts, Wes' family has given me full permission to share anything from Wes' and their story of his journey, and I honor that by sharing about Wes as I believe it would be helpful to the CRC to do what's right and learn from our past mistakes... and the patterns of resistance from leadership that Wes and his family and advocates experienced, is sadly not unique to their journey seeking justice. It's systemic... and it's still happening... I hope it's changing... I think it is... I believe it is... Thank God!
That's right, i forgot about this interesting article based on the first survey recently completed on spiritual abuse... the estimate of those who have experienced spiritual abuse in some way, shape or form... based on 1500 respondents...
just to be clear 67% of respondents said they had experienced it... that doesn't mean 67% of leaders abuse their power... we don't have a stat on that at all that I'm aware of... and at this point, we can't say there is a direct correlation... maybe, maybe not... but there has been very little research done on this... it has been deeply hidden for decades... (that's another discussion, but just think Catholic church, and there are similar patters in the protestant, sad to say)
It is very sad Roger, that in regard to abuse and victims, the Church is far too often doing exactly the opposite of what God calls us to do, and I grieved for 4 years as I was discovering how sick we are and how often this has been going on... if we go to a doctor and the doctor tells us we have cancer, or something serious, most usually take immediate steps to address it (recognizing some are at the point where their quality of life is more important than trying to extend their life and that is each person's choice)... however with spiritual cancer, or whatever disease/epidemic we compare it to, the church has been "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"... not healthy, and it has left us in a very dysfunctional state. so heart breaking... as Christians, we love the Bride of Christ, and to see her in the state she is in, grieves us greatly.
This is our watch Roger! What are we doing to make her healthy again? How are we helping bring healing for those who have deep soul wounds, that are still festering and infected because of what happened to them and how the church responded, far too often, very poorly and often adding to the hurt (most victims will say the response after reporting it was far more hurtful, and destroyed their trust more than the original incident)...
however, God's way is confess your sins one to another and He will heal us... are we willing to put down our arrogance and pride and be honest with ourselves and recognize the state we are in? not saying there isn't any good, just like a person with cancer... they might have a healthy heart, good brain, be physically fit, etc. but if they don't deal with the cancer??? none of that will matter... so we are asking God to consume the dross and refine the gold... we have both...
God is gracious and merciful. I believe He is giving the CRC opportunities to be forthright... It is a time for honest lament AND authentic repentance. Again, this is our watch... how are we responding? I'm not trusting leaders to lead this... that would be great if they did, but historically that has not been the case to a significant extent... I continue to see resistance... but I also see the priesthood of ALL believers stepping up more and more... and I believe that is the healthy response God has in mind for us... however, leaders do have a choice and their support and equipping of the priesthood of all believers would be much appreciated, instead of continued resistance and silence. I am NOT saying all leaders are resisting... but until I witness genuine support from some key leaders, I will continue to note the resistance.
There have been several warning shots across the bow (Willow Creek, Southern Baptists, Mars Hill, etc), are we taking heed?
I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and prayer (my testimony on Do justice refers to that a bit), there is no way I could have submitted the overture without His leading and God knew that and strengthened my relationship with HIm preparing me for these battles...
I believe He is empowering and equipping the priesthood of all believers to do what's right! Are we heeding His leading? this is our watch!
Bless your heart. I'm so sorry for the way you were treated... wow... I hope you continue to use your voice, to help heal and to help others heal... I pray blessing, that you will experience how the Lord gives you a crown of beauty for ashes, and a garment of praise for your pain and the oil of joy for your grief... He always trades up...
I'm aware of similar stories, and similarly, how something like this gets minimized and dismissed by leaders, when someone's body and soul were violated... how the pastor is viewed as more important than the person harmed... this exposes the idolatry in how we view those in that office. sadly, the office of pastor has been misused for the pastor's own selfish pleasure and then when that pastor is not held accountable by his peers, the trust in that office deteriorates even more... now it's not just the original individual, but a group of leaders that biblically are called to protect the harmed and seek justice on their behalf and instead are doing the very opposite... further harming the person and betraying the sacred trust that was already violated, and instead protecting the one who did the harm in the first place... just mind blowing how the response cannot be any more opposite of what God calls us to do... this ungodly response is "lording it over"... protecting and benefiting those in power at the expense of those harmed... so wrong! and that is why the trust in leadership, especially with the younger generations is almost gone. and the continued actions of leaders is doing very little, if anything to restore that trust... trust is earned, it was given freely by many to the office of pastor, and it was seriously betrayed and exploited and then often covered up, etc. Forgiveness does not restore trust, only truly genuine repentance and restitution, making things right and doing what's right. the ball is in the leaders court to restore trust. Forgiveness only opens the door for that possibility... any action to restore trust is up to the leaders... and many are waiting... and many are disappointed and have walked away from the institutional church, and I don't blame them.
Very interesting discussion via the comments, appreciate the many insights, but also indicative of the significant gap in the understanding of abuses... and the impact it has on those harmed...
someone mentioned in the comments how we all have different lens to look at this, and i think the context was justifying the response of leadership in this woman's situation... sadly, the lens some leaders are looking at abuse through, is a lens of porn... porn distorts peoples view of other people, often treating women as objects instead of being respected and treated with dignity because women are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God... porn warps the brain, warps attitudes and warps behavior... the decision process is no longer capable of sound judgment, but has warped and distorted views of women, gratifying selfish pleasures, and when we focus on indulging the flesh, our reasoning deteriorates... when over 50% of pastors are struggling with porn, how can we trust their judgment?
also... sadly, but indicatively... in a survey, 96% of victims of domestic violence who went to the church for help would NOT recommend going to the church for help... while in another survey 80+% of pastors say that that their church is a safe place for domestic violence victims... HUGE disconnect here... why?
Oh, as Kelly said, we have so much to learn about abuses and leadership and we are in the early stages of that process... Father forgive us, Lord have mercy, Holy Spirit help us...
Roger... there have been so many comments for this discussion that the comments are now on Page 2! =) at least on my computer...
thankful to see the discussion going on here in a fairly respectful manner...
sadly, I'm personally aware of too many situations (recognizing even one is too many, but I'm aware of about a dozen in my very limited sphere, not including what is in the public sphere) where the leaders have protected the pastor/leader at the expense of the one harmed... that the leader is treated as more important than the person who does not have a title... that is favoritism and lack of impartiality... both unbiblical, let alone acquitting the guilty and deny justice to the innocent, also something God does not look favorably upon. at all. Yes, we can debate what action would be appropriate to the offense in this specific incident, but honestly as a woman, I would not be able to listen to or respect a "pastor" who assaults women in any way, shape or form and honestly this is the type of behavior that has caused many to lose trust in the office of pastor, and even more so when the person is not held accountable by other pastors. This destroys the trust in pastors and defiles the office, and sadly, we are reaping the lack of trust in pastors, because that is what has been sown by the actions that minimize and dismiss the seriousness of inappropriate behavior of someone who holds office as a pastor.
We are to be above reproach, some counselors will not even shake the hands of their clients to avoid any appearance of any impropriety... now, I'm NOT recommending that in the Church... but this minimizing of inappropriate behavior is part of the problem... leaders minimize porn. is porn on the same level as what this man did here? I have heard the seriousness of porn minimized and dismissed by leaders in the CRC more than I care to think about right now... ie "it doesn't hurt anyone" when the damages are devastating in so many ways... including objectification of women and distortions of attitudes and beliefs due to the warping of the mind that goes with viewing porn. and sadly, the current stats are 57% of pastors have a problem with it... whatever we are doing to address these inappropriate behaviors, is not working! Wish I had better news, but that % just keeps going the wrong direction... and my guess based on anecdotal evidence, etc. is it's probably understated... sadly porn spawns this type of behavior and worse...
Thanks Kelly, appreciate your input and all your work in this area over the years, especially in 2016...
Transference/emotional affairs can be a significant concern when there is counseling or some other emotional connection between the pastor and parishioner... I'm not sure how much this is recognized or understood. It seems to be more of a problem the more charismatic a pastor is? I've only heard one pastor ever mention this... otherwise... crickets... wonder why? is this discussed in seminary? in the informal meetings when pastors get together for breakfast? are pastors aware of this and taking advantage of transference at the ignorance/expense of the rest of the congregation? Are some pastors meeting their emotional needs through this transference? which is spiritual abuse and exploitation by the way...
I'm somewhat familiar with Brad's/futurist guy material and appreciate it, and think his work is very helpful to understand the power dynamics of leadership... I appreciated his analysis of an unhealthy system via the pyramid of abuse with the various levels of perpetrator, perpetuators, procurators and pawns... and how this cover up/ lack of accountability happens... and sadly, this is what i've witnessed in many of the various situations I'm directly aware of.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
This response is a Bit of a switch of pace to share a bit on Deborah & Barak...
BARAK: HUMILIATION OR HERO
Judges 4:9 Commentaries: She said, "I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the honor shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the LORD will sell Sisera into the hands of a woman." Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh. (biblehub.com)
A few years ago, I remember coming across an article about Deborah & Barak, that made me take another look at the understanding that I had picked up in the CRC over the years. What I found stunned me!
I read something that the glory was always going to go to a woman, but what I had been taught was that the glory was going to a woman BECAUSE Barak was a weak cowardly man & God was using a woman to humiliate and shame him for not being the man he was supposed to be. God was using a woman only because the men refused to step up and do what they were supposed to do!
“Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh… per NIVs
Many of the commentaries back up this idea of Barak being a timid coward… here are a few samples from the bible hub link above:
This was a prediction which Barak could not understand at the time; but the strain of it conveyed a rebuke of his unmanly fears. Per Jamieson Fausset Brown
To enter into the force of this we must remember the humble and almost down-trodden position of women in the East, so that it could hardly fail to be a humiliation to a great warrior to be told that the chief glory would fall to a woman. Per Ellicot
It is greatly to the honour of a conqueror to take the general of the enemy’s army, or to kill him with his own hand; which, she tells him, should be denied him, as a small punishment for his diffidence and reluctance to comply with her directions; and as he would not go without a woman, so a woman should take away his honour from him. per Benson
However, what I found was pretty much ALL the other versions used “nevertheless”, “notwithstanding” that doesn’t place the blame and shame on Barak. Several commentaries support this view:
Those who in God's name call others to their duty, should be ready to assist them in it. Barak values the satisfaction of his mind, and the good success of his enterprise, more than mere honour. Per Matthew Henry
Lest Barak’s hopes should soar too high, the prophetess foretells that the crowning glory shall not be his but Jael’s. It is doubtful whether any blame of Barak is implied: the words mean simply ‘thou wilt not gain the honours of the expedition.’ Per Cambridge Bible
So after taking another look at this story, the Hebrew used, along with looking at the Song of Deborah and Barak in Judges 5 where Barak is celebrating, not hanging his head in humiliation and shame, AND that Barak is listed as a HERO OF THE FAITH in Hebrews 11, I now believe this was a test for Barak, whether he would do what was right and needed to be done even if he didn’t get the glory…
I love Matthew Henry’s commentary on this:
Barak values the satisfaction of his mind, and the good success of his enterprise, more than mere honour.
HE PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS!
Judges 4:14-16
Then Deborah said to Barak, "Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him. At Barak's advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot. Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim, and all Sisera's troops fell by the sword; not a man was left. (NIV)
1 Samuel 12:11
Then the Lord sent Jerub-Baal, Barak, Jephthah and Samuel, and he delivered you from the hands of your enemies all around you, so that you lived in safety. (NIV)
Hebrews 11:32
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets. (NIV)
I now believe God always intended to give the glory to a woman, as part of the justice for the women of Israel who had been sexually violated by Sisera’s soldiers per Judges 5, a common practice in war per Sisera's mother.
I now see this as a powerful picture of men and women COLLABORATING and CELEBRATING together under the prophetic leading of the Spirit resulting in justice and safety for the common good & for the glory of God…
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I continue to think about & wrestle with this & have been working through some of MW's videos... I did come across these responses to MW's videos which is far more than I could ever do! so here's a website with responses to MW videos #1-12 on women & the Church, including the 11.5 hr video on 1 Timothy 2!
A 14-Point Biblical Case for Women Leaders and Teachers And Why Mike Winger, The Gospel Coalition, and the Southern Baptists Are Wrong About This - Terran Williams
Again, both sides have some things right & some things wrong, what both sides seem to get wrong is an obsession with who has authority in the church when Jesus says we are NOT to exercise authority over one another in the church, & also at the expense of what He DOES command, to love one another as He has loved us x 17 + >40 other one another commands in the NT! I am baffled by how these seem to have been almost completely ignored in the Church! Shifting our lens from authority over one another to the one another concept is going to take the Holy Spirit helping us see where we got off course as a catalyst for metanoia to change our hearts & minds!
Metanoia: Moving Beyond Mere Repentance | CRC Network (crcna.org)
So even if "authentein" means "exercise authority" (which I continue to doubt that is what Paul meant), no one, male or female, is supposed to exercise authority over their brothers & sisters in the Lord! That instead of sibling rivalry of who rules or submits, we are called to COLLABORATE together aka the 59 ONE ANOTHER commands!
I'm starting to read this bookThe Atlas Factor & a few days ago when it came, I just randomly flipped it open to page 95 & found it confirming & encouraging that the author shares about some "one anothers" on this page!!!
The Atlas Factor
Shift Your Leadership Onto the Shoulders of Jesus
Renew your organizational culture, allowing everyone to thrive with their gifts, talents, and wisdom.
peace & prayers until next time...
7 Powerful Prayers for the Truth to Be Revealed - Prayrs
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks for your response Rob... lots of thoughts... I have a long, long list of laments of unfortunate, unbiblical, opposite of scripture, out of alignment with scripture stuff/traditions in the institutional church...
it's systemic - part of the institutional/denominational DNA... I grieve over the state of the Church & the CRC as that's my camp/expression/tradition that I've been a part of my entire life...I will save most of my response for later... but here's a few thoughts...
on God being pragmatic, I just found it humorous that God forming women for relationship, to help steward creation & be fruitful & multiply together, is not only beautiful, but so practical! The good fruit is often practical, helping others flourish & thrive!
Ok, on men & women being equal in inherent value... this is really only in the last 50 years - it's NOT the traditional view, it's a pretty recent view... before that, everything was pretty much through the lens of men being superior... read the church fathers, reformers, etc. there are some pretty demeaning quotes about women from them. Then there are the people that call themselves "comp" but are actually patriarchal... I would give Doug Wilson as an example, but I think he says he is patriarchal.
& I like to call it loving servantship (based on Phil 2/Matt 20) not leadership... & leading (verb) is not about a title or a position... it's about being an example (I have a compilation of verses on this) that convinces/persuades others by our character & love for one another to walk in God's Spirit & Truth together. Sometimes, that includes teaching/sharing/testifying/exhorting/etc.
anyway, that's not even the tip of the iceberg...
Blessings...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Here's another example of "men" being added in the 84 NIV when the Greek is inclusive... Makes me cry & ask why?!?!? What is the reason to add it?
John 3:35 in the 84 NIV (& several other versions) adds men... the KJV puts it in italics to signify it is added...
"... By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another." (biblehub.com)
John 13:35 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)
Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every (biblehub.com)
all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Going back to one of Rob's opening questions:
Why did the church not endorse Women in Office until the 1970s when feminism arose?
They did ordain women for the first several hundred years... Marg's article gives examples of women serving as deacons & elders... so what happened?
QUOTE: Perhaps the biggest clue that a few churches (and not necessarily heterodox churches) had women elders is found in the Council of Laodicea. In a misguided move, this council banned the formal ordination of women who were elders, or priests, and who were serving their church as leaders.
It is not allowed for those women who are called ‘elders/ presbyters/ priests’ (presbytides) or ‘women presidents’ (prokathēmenai) to be ordained (kathistasthai) in the churches.
Canon 11 of the Council of Laodicea (circa 360) EOQ from the following:
An Overview of Women Ministers in the Early Church - Marg Mowczko
Posted in: Power: How Will We Use It?
Bless your hearts! so thankful for your work! Appreciate this information! will be sharing with Classis PNW!
Also, would like to encourage you to consider adding to your list of resources several more books that have come out in the last few years... Rachael Denhollander/What is a Girl Worth; Mary DeMuth/#WETOO; Ruth Everhart/#MeToo Reckoning... also, this is an older one... The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (Johnson/Van Vonderen)...
and consider adding other presentations by Diane Langberg... she has some very insightful videos on her website & youtube... here's an example of a presentation on systemic narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
I am curious on the 2% of leaders abuse their power stat... what I've found is significantly higher... ie. various surveys results indicate that 30-40% of pastors have had inappropriate sexual activity/contact with someone (this is what I call abuse of power on the individual level). In the Catholic church, Richard Sipe (former priest, worked w Catholic clergy for 30 years as a mental health professional) estimated 50% of the leaders were not celibate based on his work... with 6%-20% acted out on molesting children... the rest of the sexual abuse of power has been with adults... which has barely been recognized yet in the Catholic scandal. This doesn't even address non-sexual abuses of power/lording it over/controlling & manipulative leadership on an individual level which happens to all different degrees.
Then the percentage of those who abuse power (or are negligent with their authority) grows with the response of leadership that does not hold the leader accountable and instead responds with some form of "circle the wagons" , cover up, damage control, collusion, you get the idea... (this is what I call abuse of power on the institutional or systemic level). again, the 30%-40% does not include those who spiritually abuse in other ways such as via manipulation, domineering/lording it over leadership, or using political power plays and posturing to influence and intimidate... it's quite likely the same 30-40% who have been sexually inappropriate are doing this as well, but only God knows the percentage of those who abuse their power in other ways besides sexual assault, to control, and to cover up and protect leadership at the expense of those harmed, the victims who are often treated as expendable, compared to the leader.
in my experience, conversations with clergy about this response (or lack of response) by leadership are NOT welcomed by most (I do recognize a better response from women leaders generally speaking, but that's not a given either). Hopefully this is changing... in 2014 Synod DID adopt the recommendation "abuse is acknowledged as an important issue and can be freely discussed". Sounds good on paper, but to what extent that has been actually happening is very debatable... there's a lot of times where the response from leadership is silence and the advocates, victims and families who speak about it are treated as a persona non grata... but that's an entire discussion on it's own.
oh wait... i wrote an overture for that reason... http://dojustice.crcna.org/article/story-behind-abuse-overture
Wes' story is heartbreaking, and his family still struggles and have been deeply affected with what happened and the harmful response of leadership at all levels. Wes found his healing and peace on July 7, 2006, but his family still hurts, Wes' family has given me full permission to share anything from Wes' and their story of his journey, and I honor that by sharing about Wes as I believe it would be helpful to the CRC to do what's right and learn from our past mistakes... and the patterns of resistance from leadership that Wes and his family and advocates experienced, is sadly not unique to their journey seeking justice. It's systemic... and it's still happening... I hope it's changing... I think it is... I believe it is... Thank God!
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
That's right, i forgot about this interesting article based on the first survey recently completed on spiritual abuse... the estimate of those who have experienced spiritual abuse in some way, shape or form... based on 1500 respondents...
67%!!
but again, only God know the actual percentage...
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2018/12-january/news/uk/spiritual-abuse-study-suggests-two-thirds-of-christians-could-be-victims
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2018/12-january/comment/leader-comment/spiritual-abuse
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
just to be clear 67% of respondents said they had experienced it... that doesn't mean 67% of leaders abuse their power... we don't have a stat on that at all that I'm aware of... and at this point, we can't say there is a direct correlation... maybe, maybe not... but there has been very little research done on this... it has been deeply hidden for decades... (that's another discussion, but just think Catholic church, and there are similar patters in the protestant, sad to say)
It is very sad Roger, that in regard to abuse and victims, the Church is far too often doing exactly the opposite of what God calls us to do, and I grieved for 4 years as I was discovering how sick we are and how often this has been going on... if we go to a doctor and the doctor tells us we have cancer, or something serious, most usually take immediate steps to address it (recognizing some are at the point where their quality of life is more important than trying to extend their life and that is each person's choice)... however with spiritual cancer, or whatever disease/epidemic we compare it to, the church has been "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"... not healthy, and it has left us in a very dysfunctional state. so heart breaking... as Christians, we love the Bride of Christ, and to see her in the state she is in, grieves us greatly.
This is our watch Roger! What are we doing to make her healthy again? How are we helping bring healing for those who have deep soul wounds, that are still festering and infected because of what happened to them and how the church responded, far too often, very poorly and often adding to the hurt (most victims will say the response after reporting it was far more hurtful, and destroyed their trust more than the original incident)...
however, God's way is confess your sins one to another and He will heal us... are we willing to put down our arrogance and pride and be honest with ourselves and recognize the state we are in? not saying there isn't any good, just like a person with cancer... they might have a healthy heart, good brain, be physically fit, etc. but if they don't deal with the cancer??? none of that will matter... so we are asking God to consume the dross and refine the gold... we have both...
God is gracious and merciful. I believe He is giving the CRC opportunities to be forthright... It is a time for honest lament AND authentic repentance. Again, this is our watch... how are we responding? I'm not trusting leaders to lead this... that would be great if they did, but historically that has not been the case to a significant extent... I continue to see resistance... but I also see the priesthood of ALL believers stepping up more and more... and I believe that is the healthy response God has in mind for us... however, leaders do have a choice and their support and equipping of the priesthood of all believers would be much appreciated, instead of continued resistance and silence. I am NOT saying all leaders are resisting... but until I witness genuine support from some key leaders, I will continue to note the resistance.
There have been several warning shots across the bow (Willow Creek, Southern Baptists, Mars Hill, etc), are we taking heed?
I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and prayer (my testimony on Do justice refers to that a bit), there is no way I could have submitted the overture without His leading and God knew that and strengthened my relationship with HIm preparing me for these battles...
I believe He is empowering and equipping the priesthood of all believers to do what's right! Are we heeding His leading? this is our watch!
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Bless your heart. I'm so sorry for the way you were treated... wow... I hope you continue to use your voice, to help heal and to help others heal... I pray blessing, that you will experience how the Lord gives you a crown of beauty for ashes, and a garment of praise for your pain and the oil of joy for your grief... He always trades up...
I'm aware of similar stories, and similarly, how something like this gets minimized and dismissed by leaders, when someone's body and soul were violated... how the pastor is viewed as more important than the person harmed... this exposes the idolatry in how we view those in that office. sadly, the office of pastor has been misused for the pastor's own selfish pleasure and then when that pastor is not held accountable by his peers, the trust in that office deteriorates even more... now it's not just the original individual, but a group of leaders that biblically are called to protect the harmed and seek justice on their behalf and instead are doing the very opposite... further harming the person and betraying the sacred trust that was already violated, and instead protecting the one who did the harm in the first place... just mind blowing how the response cannot be any more opposite of what God calls us to do... this ungodly response is "lording it over"... protecting and benefiting those in power at the expense of those harmed... so wrong! and that is why the trust in leadership, especially with the younger generations is almost gone. and the continued actions of leaders is doing very little, if anything to restore that trust... trust is earned, it was given freely by many to the office of pastor, and it was seriously betrayed and exploited and then often covered up, etc. Forgiveness does not restore trust, only truly genuine repentance and restitution, making things right and doing what's right. the ball is in the leaders court to restore trust. Forgiveness only opens the door for that possibility... any action to restore trust is up to the leaders... and many are waiting... and many are disappointed and have walked away from the institutional church, and I don't blame them.
Very interesting discussion via the comments, appreciate the many insights, but also indicative of the significant gap in the understanding of abuses... and the impact it has on those harmed...
someone mentioned in the comments how we all have different lens to look at this, and i think the context was justifying the response of leadership in this woman's situation... sadly, the lens some leaders are looking at abuse through, is a lens of porn... porn distorts peoples view of other people, often treating women as objects instead of being respected and treated with dignity because women are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God... porn warps the brain, warps attitudes and warps behavior... the decision process is no longer capable of sound judgment, but has warped and distorted views of women, gratifying selfish pleasures, and when we focus on indulging the flesh, our reasoning deteriorates... when over 50% of pastors are struggling with porn, how can we trust their judgment?
also... sadly, but indicatively... in a survey, 96% of victims of domestic violence who went to the church for help would NOT recommend going to the church for help... while in another survey 80+% of pastors say that that their church is a safe place for domestic violence victims... HUGE disconnect here... why?
Oh, as Kelly said, we have so much to learn about abuses and leadership and we are in the early stages of that process... Father forgive us, Lord have mercy, Holy Spirit help us...
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Roger... there have been so many comments for this discussion that the comments are now on Page 2! =) at least on my computer...
thankful to see the discussion going on here in a fairly respectful manner...
sadly, I'm personally aware of too many situations (recognizing even one is too many, but I'm aware of about a dozen in my very limited sphere, not including what is in the public sphere) where the leaders have protected the pastor/leader at the expense of the one harmed... that the leader is treated as more important than the person who does not have a title... that is favoritism and lack of impartiality... both unbiblical, let alone acquitting the guilty and deny justice to the innocent, also something God does not look favorably upon. at all. Yes, we can debate what action would be appropriate to the offense in this specific incident, but honestly as a woman, I would not be able to listen to or respect a "pastor" who assaults women in any way, shape or form and honestly this is the type of behavior that has caused many to lose trust in the office of pastor, and even more so when the person is not held accountable by other pastors. This destroys the trust in pastors and defiles the office, and sadly, we are reaping the lack of trust in pastors, because that is what has been sown by the actions that minimize and dismiss the seriousness of inappropriate behavior of someone who holds office as a pastor.
We are to be above reproach, some counselors will not even shake the hands of their clients to avoid any appearance of any impropriety... now, I'm NOT recommending that in the Church... but this minimizing of inappropriate behavior is part of the problem... leaders minimize porn. is porn on the same level as what this man did here? I have heard the seriousness of porn minimized and dismissed by leaders in the CRC more than I care to think about right now... ie "it doesn't hurt anyone" when the damages are devastating in so many ways... including objectification of women and distortions of attitudes and beliefs due to the warping of the mind that goes with viewing porn. and sadly, the current stats are 57% of pastors have a problem with it... whatever we are doing to address these inappropriate behaviors, is not working! Wish I had better news, but that % just keeps going the wrong direction... and my guess based on anecdotal evidence, etc. is it's probably understated... sadly porn spawns this type of behavior and worse...
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Thanks Kelly, appreciate your input and all your work in this area over the years, especially in 2016...
Transference/emotional affairs can be a significant concern when there is counseling or some other emotional connection between the pastor and parishioner... I'm not sure how much this is recognized or understood. It seems to be more of a problem the more charismatic a pastor is? I've only heard one pastor ever mention this... otherwise... crickets... wonder why? is this discussed in seminary? in the informal meetings when pastors get together for breakfast? are pastors aware of this and taking advantage of transference at the ignorance/expense of the rest of the congregation? Are some pastors meeting their emotional needs through this transference? which is spiritual abuse and exploitation by the way...
I'm somewhat familiar with Brad's/futurist guy material and appreciate it, and think his work is very helpful to understand the power dynamics of leadership... I appreciated his analysis of an unhealthy system via the pyramid of abuse with the various levels of perpetrator, perpetuators, procurators and pawns... and how this cover up/ lack of accountability happens... and sadly, this is what i've witnessed in many of the various situations I'm directly aware of.
https://futuristguymedia.wordpress.com/pyramid-of-abuse-and-culpability-complicity/
Pyramid of Abuse (c) 2018 Brad Sargent