I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
several thoughts... agree with Frank on the prayer... it seems we have mostly missed the prayer side of Acts 6:4 and they devoted themselves to prayer and the ministry of the Word. One person shared how in a pastor search survey, 85 qualifications were listed and not one of them was a person of prayer...
and agree on focus on youth... somewhere is a statistic that 85% of believers made a commitment to Jesus by the age of 17... they are the biggest mission field... let's not miss the opportunity that is right in front of us...
and then a generally unaddressed area that i question... the prophetic... it seems historically, we/crc have indirectly and quietly married the office of pastor and prophet through preaching... our forms for ordination indicate this when in the form for pastor ordination in an established congregation it mentions that "through the pastor God Himself speaks"... and that when we "receive this man as a prophet we will receive a prophet's reward"... sometimes that's the case, but interestingly, this same language is NOT used for the missionary, evangelist, or elders and deacons... it seems historically we have been fairly exclusive and unbiblical in assigning the gift of prophecy essentially solely to the pastor (and i have heard comments from crc members/leaders to this effect)... this gift is for ALL flesh per Acts 2/Joel 2 which includes the missionary, evangelist, elders, deacons AND everyone else... not saying pastors don't have this gift, but it is NOT exclusive to them as it seems from the ordination forms... since this type of language is not mentioned anywhere else as far as I can tell, it seems there is a CRC perception that the pastor is the only one who can "hear" God and speak prophetically. Not true, and I think this is limiting/quenching the Spirit in ways that we don't intend to. So on the one hand, i hear the crc saying... prophet = ordained pastor + pulpit... a man made equation... being an ordained pastor does not give anyone a blanket covering for being a prophet too, scripture mentions them as 2 different ministries, just like teachers and evangelists - we don't do this with any of the other callings mentioned in Eph 4...
on the other hand, being a pastor does not exclude pastors from the prophetic gift either, but it definitely is NOT limited to ordained pastors only or even primarily.
The prophetic is something hardly recognized in the crc for various reasons, but when it seems it is almost exclusive to the office of ordained pastor, whether intentional or not, it is something that's needs to be addressed and understood further.
Les Mis is one of my favorite stories...however, this is making me go hmmm... I get the concept and it sounds nice and very politically correct, so we aren't "sinners" anymore, instead people who make poor choices/mistakes sometimes... and yes, sometimes the scripture lists it as those who do certain sinful things.... ie those who are greedy or see Galatians 5:19-21 for a list of sins.
also, I do struggle when people quote that all our deeds are filthy rags, and every intent of our heart is evil, instead of giving Jesus the glory for giving us, as believers, a new heart and making us a new creation in Him, and through His blood, cleansing those filthy rags into fine linen worthy of His Bride (Rev 19:8).. absolutely, we have a new identity in Christ.
but Apostle Paul uses all kinds of labels (I Cor 5:9-13)... Jesus did too... "brood of vipers" =( ouch! not exactly PC... He didn't say "oh you people who act like snakes sometimes"... and "blind guides" - not, "these people who don't see clearly all the time"... He called Judas a "devil"... He called people wicked and perverse... definitely not "nice" or politically correct, it's part of what got Him killed...
I know it seems harsh in our politically correct culture, but unless we have been translating the Word of God wrong, there is biblical precedent for "labeling" in scripture... it seems, particularly for those who were expected to be spiritual, but were actually walking in sin and un-repentance.
the following is an excerpt from the hope of survivors website which is about abuse by spiritual leaders (those who have authority/power in the Church):
To summarize what Marie M. Fortune wrote in her book, Is Nothing Sacred?, the proper steps to take when implementing justice and mercy (based on Micah 6:8) include:
1. Truth-telling (breaking the silence of the abuse)
2. Acknowledging the violation (in hearing the truth, the church acknowledges the violation)
3. Compassion (means to “suffer with,” to be present, acknowledge and listen, even when you can’t solve the problem)
4. Protecting the vulnerable (prevent further harm)
5. Accountability (based on Luke 17:1-4, it begins with confrontation and should end in repentance)
6. Restitution (making payment for damages is a concrete means of renewing right-relation)
7. Vindication (for the victim, it most often means exoneration and justification)
thanks for being willing to look deeper, Robin... control is a huge issue (probably most abuse is about control) -and the control will manifest financially in different ways, as well as in other areas. Control is not only an issue in relationships, but also in the Church... it can be so subtle and hard to see... and one struggles with is it real or imagined (spiritual/emotional abuse v physical/sexual abuse)... a comment from an article on church abuse...
BOQ... But in the many many months I have spent on studying abusive churches and abusive tactics, there is a very common theme and many common words that churches use that are a substitute for "control". EOQ
if you've experienced it, you can discern the control lingo that's been spiritualized (which becomes spiritual abuse)... here's an example this same person uses in another comment and her take on it... the quoted part of the following excerpt is from a church website:
BOQ..."Finally, we understand that we will encounter some very significant challenges that may require the services of an outside trained professional counselor. If necessary, we can refer people to a trusted professional who employs a gospel-centered counseling approach, and who will work together with our community to help shepherd hurting people." In other words. If we decide you do need counseling, it will be with someone who we decide is appropriate. I've been around the block on that. I understand the wording. EOQ
I am amazed at those who have been abused/manipulated by leaders in the Church, how they pick up on this type of "control" and perceive it much quicker than those who have not experienced such abuse and manipulation... the statements of leaders looks good, sounds good, but there's something amiss and those who've been on the wrong end of it, recognize the loopholes in it, while those who are in leadership often do not... and that's why discernment is such a needed gift for the Bride of Christ. hope that makes sense!
bless your heart, Robin, for being willing to speak out here =)
here's a comment I found while reading a blog last night...
BOQ...Financial security is usually an issue in abusive situations, especially if there are kids involved. ... - abusers usually control everything, including the finances. Threatening complete financial abandonment if not compliant, and dangling "carrots" like trips, jewelry, etc. Both manipulations designed to make her stay, and stay in the fog of confusion. EOQ
and there is a big difference between self control (fruit of the Spirit) and manipulative control (fruit of the enemy)...
you probably have already read this... but just in case you haven't and have some time to read it (even if just the introduction of the report)... the link includes a link to the 300 page report that came out of the independent investigation.... I give Bob Jones considerable credit for carrying through with this investigation on their culture regarding sexual abuse...
one of the areas I struggle with on this is we like to "be prophetic critics of the waste, injustice, and selfishness in our society,..." (Ordination of elders and deacons, GPH p1005), that's cool, relevant, makes us (the Church) look good and it's "safe"... however, if we actually follow the biblical charge from Paul in I Cor 5:12 to judge inside the church and not outside, this statement is exactly backwards... we are actually called to be prophetic critics of the injustice in the Church, (of course starting with ourselves with the help of the Holy Spirit)... and as you suggested, this doesn't go over well.... at all! because we/the Church will not look good...
here's a quote from Global trauma recovery website: BOQ It is a sad fact that many organizations (church/denom), when faced with the choice of protecting an abusive leader or victim, choose to protect the leader (and thus the organization) rather than the victims of that abuse. All too often, victims report that the failure of the system to respond well to their cries for help cause more harm than the original abuse. EOQ
so not only is the Church not helping the person who has been "oppressed"/victimized, too many times, we are actually making it worse and become part of the problem. The response of the Church is even worse to the victim, when leadership feels threatened over the exposure of the ungodly conduct.
when this ungodly behavior is threatened to be exposed in the Church, instead of transparency, we find secrecy, silence, and cover up, instead of integrity, we find manipulation, intimidation and deception (it's often very subtle ie...technically not a lie, but effectively very misleading), and instead of purity, we find abusive type behaviors including emotional and spiritual abuse to shun, dismiss, etc those who have been hurt or much worse because of the ungodly behavior... i could list numerous examples of this unbiblical response in the Church, including our beloved crc... and i find that is what people outside the church see very clearly... we are only fooling ourselves, not God, and not those outside the Church...
God calls us His people to humble ourselves, pray, seek His face and turn from our wicked ways.... He did not give this charge to the world/unbelievers, but to us, His people.
hmmm... maybe the Church could try that with elder and deacon selection? it's done to some extent, but this probably takes it beyond the level most churches select their council members? or not?
I think secret sins are a HUGE part of the hypocrisy problem:
posted 10.7.14 on the charisma news website
BOQ... A new national survey of Christian men reveals shocking statistics pertaining to high rates of pornography use and addiction, plus rampant sexual infidelity among married Christian men.
The 2014 survey was commissioned by a nonprofit organization called Proven Men Ministries and conducted by Barna Group among a nationally representative sample of 388 self-identified Christian adult men.
The statistics for Christian men between 18 and 30 years old are particularly striking:
77 percent look at pornography at least monthly. 36 percent view pornography on a daily basis. 32 percent admit being addicted to pornography (and another 12 percent think they may be).
The statistics for middle-aged Christian men (ages 31 to 49) are no less disturbing:
77 percent looked at pornography while at work in the past three months. 64 percent view pornography at least monthly. 18 percent admit being addicted to pornography (and another 8 percent think they may be).
Even married Christian men are falling prey to pornography and extramarital sexual affairs at alarming rates:
55 percent look at pornography at least monthly. 35 percent had an extramarital sexual affair while married.
"These statistics knock the wind right out of you. They also confirm what we already know; that there definitely is a problem with pornography and affairs among Christian men and that they are starving for the church to step forward with solutions," according to Joel Hesch, who sponsored the survey and is the founder of the biblically based Proven Men Ministries.
He adds: "The purpose of the survey was not to point fingers, but to get a better grasp on the scope of the problem in light of ready access to pornography in this Internet era.
"It's abundantly clear that pornography is one of the biggest unaddressed problems in the church," Hesch continued. EOQ
I do try to understand what is driving this, because it is so rampant and the fruit is horrific and includes objectifying women/people, the human trafficking of women and children and many other types of abuse and violence, destroying how we are made in God's image, and so it is not only a holiness issue, but also a justice issue... one possibility for these stats is our lack of listening to the Holy Spirit, 1) because scripture says He will always give us a way out of our temptations, and 2) the Word (Eph 5) says there is not even to be a hint of immorality, and it seems we have just written that off as impossible, so why bother trying since we are "wired" this way... something serious is amiss... and these statistics tell me, somehow we have quenched the Holy Spirit to some debatable degree... I believe we can walk in holiness with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it seems, we don't think it's important, and that could be another reason for these high numbers, we don't understand how important walking in holiness is. is this a popular message? of course not, when we have a significant majority of christian men looking at this on a regular basis, and human tendency is to try and justify it. and doesn't scripture include self control as part of the fruit of the Spirit?
I am trying to understand, over the last several years, I have read "every man's battle" and "the pornography trap" as well as numerous articles and testimonies of people affected by porn. About a year ago, some Christian friends very openly shared with my husband and I, about the husband's struggle with porn and we've witnessed him doing a 180, speaking boldly to other men about this issue as well as other significant changes that he attributes to the Holy Spirit. My husband and I have talked about it often, and I have directly asked him about it, and his response was incredibly beautiful to me (If it's ok with you, i might pass this thread on to both of them and see if they would be willing to write a response from their "guy" perspective as well)... there is hope... but it's through the HOLY Spirit!
I believe this is a spiritual issue... as believers of Jesus Christ, He has made us new creations, and the old is gone and I'm not going to disregard the work He has done in your life or mine, but I'm going to acknowledge Him for what He has done and is doing sanctifying each of us... not saying, we will never struggle with lust, but at this level? many on a daily basis, with addiction rates to match? mmmm... something else is going on here... that indicates no genuine repentance or ????, at least can we agree it indicates something very serious is wrong?
prayer is the first weapon we have, and God reveals His heart to us as we spend time with Him in prayer (and the Word)... can I explain it? how does one explain the Living and active Word of God, infused with the breath of the Holy Spirit... is it "mystical"? not in the sense of eastern mysticism, but yes, in the sense that we can't explain with our intellect and logic how He works... it's super rational, not ir-rational... yes, He does supernaturally break into our lives and make changes... I have had numerous "experiences" that were so powerful and life changing, I cry just thinking about them... He has orchestrated statistically improbable/impossible (ie miraculous) connections and events numerous times as well. There is no way I can deny the Holy Spirit and His life changing work in my life, not only through the "experiences, connections, etc" but also through how He has made His Word Living and Active...
I understand our denomination does not have a great historical tradition when it comes to the Holy Spirit (we were cessationist on paper until 1973, when it was refuted by Synod on paper, but not so much in practice, and we are still struggling in this area, if we will be honest about it). Several books that helped me were Jack Deere's Surprised by the Voice of God and Surprised by the Power of the Spirit... Jack has a cessationist background, so we can relate to that... (quick disclaimer, read it with discernment, as at least one of the people he mentions have had some serious moral issues since the books were written). Just yesterday someone alerted me to a book called "Holy Fire" by RT Kendall... that will be one of my next readings...
I think one of the ways to fight this thing is to get a better understanding of the Holy Spirit, hungering for God and His Word. I feel I've only scratched the surface so far in my journey and for the last 7 years or so, the Holy Spirit has been one of the primary focuses of my studying and discussions with people and I will testify that Scripture has become significantly more living and active in the last 7 years than I had ever experienced in the 25 years before that. I've been very blessed in how God has connected me with other believers from different Christian "streams" to help me grow in this, but it will always take discernment and knowing His Word and spending time with Him.
one more point for now (and by the way, thanks for being willing to engage in discussion... I truly believe iron sharpens iron, and sometimes we avoid doing so because we don't want to offend anyone)... that was a great point that sin in general objectifies people, I had never thought of that before... however, I will submit that porn has a way of doing so at a far more rapid pace (which leads to abuse and violence), and there have been studies to show this.
and here's an article from 2012 as one example of some of the material I've read on this... and it's written by a guy who has worked with these types of issues for 20 years...
wow, that convinced me even more that it's the Holy Spirit and prayer over the suggestions you listed, they sound like man's ways/our own understanding... God's ways are good and beautiful, even if we don't understand them (I think of Prov 3:5-6/Is 55:9-10)... one of the prayers I pray often is from Eph 1 open the eyes (spiritual senses) our our hearts... we need our spiritual eyes and ears open to hear Him and see the world through His eyes... when our spiritual senses are awakened, sensitive to Him, our entire perspective changes... everyone is beautiful, no matter how the world "labels/views" them... because we are all God's creation made in His image... I "experienced" seeing people through "God's eyes" to some extent for about one year - I remember exactly when and where it started - it was profound, however, over time, it shifted back to "normal"... now i have to be intentional about seeing everyone as beautiful and recognizing the potential He has given to each person, which is fine, I'm very thankful I had that experience to help me better understand how God sees us... it gave me a glimpse of His heart for people, but also recognizing how the enemy tries to steal the potential God gave us.
another prayer is for a spiritual hunger to know Him more... Taste and see that the Lord is good... I hunger after Him, I relate to the cry in Psalm 84 where the psalmist says "my heart and flesh cry out for the living God..., better is one day in your courts than a 1000 elsewhere" and in Psalm 40 where the deer longs for water, so my soul longs for God... once we have tasted Him, we want more... nothing else will satisfy... including our fleshly desires... we sell ourselves way short when we try to satisfy ourselves through earthly pleasure (not saying they are all wrong, just saying they don't compare). One caveat, God responds differently if we are just looking for the "experience" or if we are truly seeking Him... I discovered that some are looking for the spiritual experience, not God necessarily, and then you get into really weird stuff and open yourself up to all kinds of counterfeit garbage (the enemy loves to deceive)...
I know God can "speak" to anyone, anyway, any time (and yes, He speaks through people - which is the prophetic)... Scripture is His primary way, and His "message" will always line up with His word (if it doesn't, it's not Him)... One other book that is my main go to guide on hearing God is "Can you hear Me? Tuning in to the God Who speaks" by Brad Jersak... The weekend I got that book, my entire prayer life shifted (not just because of the book, but also because of a sequence of "hearing God" very specifically emphasizing the prayer "open the eyes of my heart" - my "experience" of seeing through God's eyes happened 4 weeks later). My life has been profoundly affected since then... that weekend was when Scripture became Living and Active at a whole new level for me... before that prayer had mostly been a one way monologue (with some exception)... after that weekend... wow. God transformed my prayer life and my faith... it hasn't been easy... with the cessationist strain still in the crc, it's tended to be seen by some as heretical and gets dismissed or worse... but i would not and can not go back ... it is my heart's desire that all would "see and hear" Him to know Him more through our spiritual senses... nothing compares to Him... He alone is worthy of our worship and obedience... this is His due... pursue Him with all our hearts... as King David wrote... one thing I ask of the LORD, this is what I seek; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the BEAUTY of the Lord and to seek Him in His temple. That is one of my prayers for the Kingdom Church.
Posted in: The Evolution of the Pastoral Ministry
several thoughts... agree with Frank on the prayer... it seems we have mostly missed the prayer side of Acts 6:4 and they devoted themselves to prayer and the ministry of the Word. One person shared how in a pastor search survey, 85 qualifications were listed and not one of them was a person of prayer...
and agree on focus on youth... somewhere is a statistic that 85% of believers made a commitment to Jesus by the age of 17... they are the biggest mission field... let's not miss the opportunity that is right in front of us...
and then a generally unaddressed area that i question... the prophetic... it seems historically, we/crc have indirectly and quietly married the office of pastor and prophet through preaching... our forms for ordination indicate this when in the form for pastor ordination in an established congregation it mentions that "through the pastor God Himself speaks"... and that when we "receive this man as a prophet we will receive a prophet's reward"... sometimes that's the case, but interestingly, this same language is NOT used for the missionary, evangelist, or elders and deacons... it seems historically we have been fairly exclusive and unbiblical in assigning the gift of prophecy essentially solely to the pastor (and i have heard comments from crc members/leaders to this effect)... this gift is for ALL flesh per Acts 2/Joel 2 which includes the missionary, evangelist, elders, deacons AND everyone else... not saying pastors don't have this gift, but it is NOT exclusive to them as it seems from the ordination forms... since this type of language is not mentioned anywhere else as far as I can tell, it seems there is a CRC perception that the pastor is the only one who can "hear" God and speak prophetically. Not true, and I think this is limiting/quenching the Spirit in ways that we don't intend to. So on the one hand, i hear the crc saying... prophet = ordained pastor + pulpit... a man made equation... being an ordained pastor does not give anyone a blanket covering for being a prophet too, scripture mentions them as 2 different ministries, just like teachers and evangelists - we don't do this with any of the other callings mentioned in Eph 4...
on the other hand, being a pastor does not exclude pastors from the prophetic gift either, but it definitely is NOT limited to ordained pastors only or even primarily.
The prophetic is something hardly recognized in the crc for various reasons, but when it seems it is almost exclusive to the office of ordained pastor, whether intentional or not, it is something that's needs to be addressed and understood further.
Posted in: What’s in a Name?
Les Mis is one of my favorite stories...however, this is making me go hmmm... I get the concept and it sounds nice and very politically correct, so we aren't "sinners" anymore, instead people who make poor choices/mistakes sometimes... and yes, sometimes the scripture lists it as those who do certain sinful things.... ie those who are greedy or see Galatians 5:19-21 for a list of sins.
also, I do struggle when people quote that all our deeds are filthy rags, and every intent of our heart is evil, instead of giving Jesus the glory for giving us, as believers, a new heart and making us a new creation in Him, and through His blood, cleansing those filthy rags into fine linen worthy of His Bride (Rev 19:8).. absolutely, we have a new identity in Christ.
but Apostle Paul uses all kinds of labels (I Cor 5:9-13)... Jesus did too... "brood of vipers" =( ouch! not exactly PC... He didn't say "oh you people who act like snakes sometimes"... and "blind guides" - not, "these people who don't see clearly all the time"... He called Judas a "devil"... He called people wicked and perverse... definitely not "nice" or politically correct, it's part of what got Him killed...
I know it seems harsh in our politically correct culture, but unless we have been translating the Word of God wrong, there is biblical precedent for "labeling" in scripture... it seems, particularly for those who were expected to be spiritual, but were actually walking in sin and un-repentance.
Posted in: Breaking the Silence: A Question of Culture
the following is an excerpt from the hope of survivors website which is about abuse by spiritual leaders (those who have authority/power in the Church):
To summarize what Marie M. Fortune wrote in her book, Is Nothing Sacred?, the proper steps to take when implementing justice and mercy (based on Micah 6:8) include:
1. Truth-telling (breaking the silence of the abuse)
2. Acknowledging the violation (in hearing the truth, the church acknowledges the violation)
3. Compassion (means to “suffer with,” to be present, acknowledge and listen, even when you can’t solve the problem)
4. Protecting the vulnerable (prevent further harm)
5. Accountability (based on Luke 17:1-4, it begins with confrontation and should end in repentance)
6. Restitution (making payment for damages is a concrete means of renewing right-relation)
7. Vindication (for the victim, it most often means exoneration and justification)
The bottom line: TAKE RESPONSIBILITY–DON’T HIDE!
Posted in: Ties That Bind
thanks for being willing to look deeper, Robin... control is a huge issue (probably most abuse is about control) -and the control will manifest financially in different ways, as well as in other areas. Control is not only an issue in relationships, but also in the Church... it can be so subtle and hard to see... and one struggles with is it real or imagined (spiritual/emotional abuse v physical/sexual abuse)... a comment from an article on church abuse...
BOQ... But in the many many months I have spent on studying abusive churches and abusive tactics, there is a very common theme and many common words that churches use that are a substitute for "control". EOQ
if you've experienced it, you can discern the control lingo that's been spiritualized (which becomes spiritual abuse)... here's an example this same person uses in another comment and her take on it... the quoted part of the following excerpt is from a church website:
BOQ..."Finally, we understand that we will encounter some very significant challenges that may require the services of an outside trained professional counselor. If necessary, we can refer people to a trusted professional who employs a gospel-centered counseling approach, and who will work together with our community to help shepherd hurting people." In other words. If we decide you do need counseling, it will be with someone who we decide is appropriate. I've been around the block on that. I understand the wording. EOQ
I am amazed at those who have been abused/manipulated by leaders in the Church, how they pick up on this type of "control" and perceive it much quicker than those who have not experienced such abuse and manipulation... the statements of leaders looks good, sounds good, but there's something amiss and those who've been on the wrong end of it, recognize the loopholes in it, while those who are in leadership often do not... and that's why discernment is such a needed gift for the Bride of Christ. hope that makes sense!
Posted in: Ties That Bind
bless your heart, Robin, for being willing to speak out here =)
here's a comment I found while reading a blog last night...
BOQ...Financial security is usually an issue in abusive situations, especially if there are kids involved. ... - abusers usually control everything, including the finances. Threatening complete financial abandonment if not compliant, and dangling "carrots" like trips, jewelry, etc. Both manipulations designed to make her stay, and stay in the fog of confusion. EOQ
and there is a big difference between self control (fruit of the Spirit) and manipulative control (fruit of the enemy)...
Posted in: Breaking the Silence: A Question of Culture
you probably have already read this... but just in case you haven't and have some time to read it (even if just the introduction of the report)... the link includes a link to the 300 page report that came out of the independent investigation.... I give Bob Jones considerable credit for carrying through with this investigation on their culture regarding sexual abuse...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/us/bob-jones-university-sex-assault-victim-study.html?_r=1
Posted in: Hypocrisy
one of the areas I struggle with on this is we like to "be prophetic critics of the waste, injustice, and selfishness in our society,..." (Ordination of elders and deacons, GPH p1005), that's cool, relevant, makes us (the Church) look good and it's "safe"... however, if we actually follow the biblical charge from Paul in I Cor 5:12 to judge inside the church and not outside, this statement is exactly backwards... we are actually called to be prophetic critics of the injustice in the Church, (of course starting with ourselves with the help of the Holy Spirit)... and as you suggested, this doesn't go over well.... at all! because we/the Church will not look good...
here's a quote from Global trauma recovery website:
BOQ It is a sad fact that many organizations (church/denom), when faced with the choice of protecting an abusive leader or victim, choose to protect the leader (and thus the organization) rather than the victims of that abuse. All too often, victims report that the failure of the system to respond well to their cries for help cause more harm than the original abuse. EOQ
so not only is the Church not helping the person who has been "oppressed"/victimized, too many times, we are actually making it worse and become part of the problem. The response of the Church is even worse to the victim, when leadership feels threatened over the exposure of the ungodly conduct.
when this ungodly behavior is threatened to be exposed in the Church, instead of transparency, we find secrecy, silence, and cover up, instead of integrity, we find manipulation, intimidation and deception (it's often very subtle ie...technically not a lie, but effectively very misleading), and instead of purity, we find abusive type behaviors including emotional and spiritual abuse to shun, dismiss, etc those who have been hurt or much worse because of the ungodly behavior... i could list numerous examples of this unbiblical response in the Church, including our beloved crc... and i find that is what people outside the church see very clearly... we are only fooling ourselves, not God, and not those outside the Church...
God calls us His people to humble ourselves, pray, seek His face and turn from our wicked ways.... He did not give this charge to the world/unbelievers, but to us, His people.
Posted in: Hiring: A Practice in Spiritual Discernment
hmmm... maybe the Church could try that with elder and deacon selection? it's done to some extent, but this probably takes it beyond the level most churches select their council members? or not?
Posted in: Hypocrisy
I think secret sins are a HUGE part of the hypocrisy problem:
posted 10.7.14 on the charisma news website
BOQ... A new national survey of Christian men reveals shocking statistics pertaining to high rates of pornography use and addiction, plus rampant sexual infidelity among married Christian men.
The 2014 survey was commissioned by a nonprofit organization called Proven Men Ministries and conducted by Barna Group among a nationally representative sample of 388 self-identified Christian adult men.
The statistics for Christian men between 18 and 30 years old are particularly striking:
77 percent look at pornography at least monthly.
36 percent view pornography on a daily basis.
32 percent admit being addicted to pornography (and another 12 percent think they may be).
The statistics for middle-aged Christian men (ages 31 to 49) are no less disturbing:
77 percent looked at pornography while at work in the past three months.
64 percent view pornography at least monthly.
18 percent admit being addicted to pornography (and another 8 percent think they may be).
Even married Christian men are falling prey to pornography and extramarital sexual affairs at alarming rates:
55 percent look at pornography at least monthly.
35 percent had an extramarital sexual affair while married.
"These statistics knock the wind right out of you. They also confirm what we already know; that there definitely is a problem with pornography and affairs among Christian men and that they are starving for the church to step forward with solutions," according to Joel Hesch, who sponsored the survey and is the founder of the biblically based Proven Men Ministries.
He adds: "The purpose of the survey was not to point fingers, but to get a better grasp on the scope of the problem in light of ready access to pornography in this Internet era.
"It's abundantly clear that pornography is one of the biggest unaddressed problems in the church," Hesch continued. EOQ
Posted in: Hypocrisy
I do try to understand what is driving this, because it is so rampant and the fruit is horrific and includes objectifying women/people, the human trafficking of women and children and many other types of abuse and violence, destroying how we are made in God's image, and so it is not only a holiness issue, but also a justice issue... one possibility for these stats is our lack of listening to the Holy Spirit, 1) because scripture says He will always give us a way out of our temptations, and 2) the Word (Eph 5) says there is not even to be a hint of immorality, and it seems we have just written that off as impossible, so why bother trying since we are "wired" this way... something serious is amiss... and these statistics tell me, somehow we have quenched the Holy Spirit to some debatable degree... I believe we can walk in holiness with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it seems, we don't think it's important, and that could be another reason for these high numbers, we don't understand how important walking in holiness is. is this a popular message? of course not, when we have a significant majority of christian men looking at this on a regular basis, and human tendency is to try and justify it. and doesn't scripture include self control as part of the fruit of the Spirit?
Posted in: Hypocrisy
I am trying to understand, over the last several years, I have read "every man's battle" and "the pornography trap" as well as numerous articles and testimonies of people affected by porn. About a year ago, some Christian friends very openly shared with my husband and I, about the husband's struggle with porn and we've witnessed him doing a 180, speaking boldly to other men about this issue as well as other significant changes that he attributes to the Holy Spirit. My husband and I have talked about it often, and I have directly asked him about it, and his response was incredibly beautiful to me (If it's ok with you, i might pass this thread on to both of them and see if they would be willing to write a response from their "guy" perspective as well)... there is hope... but it's through the HOLY Spirit!
I believe this is a spiritual issue... as believers of Jesus Christ, He has made us new creations, and the old is gone and I'm not going to disregard the work He has done in your life or mine, but I'm going to acknowledge Him for what He has done and is doing sanctifying each of us... not saying, we will never struggle with lust, but at this level? many on a daily basis, with addiction rates to match? mmmm... something else is going on here... that indicates no genuine repentance or ????, at least can we agree it indicates something very serious is wrong?
prayer is the first weapon we have, and God reveals His heart to us as we spend time with Him in prayer (and the Word)... can I explain it? how does one explain the Living and active Word of God, infused with the breath of the Holy Spirit... is it "mystical"? not in the sense of eastern mysticism, but yes, in the sense that we can't explain with our intellect and logic how He works... it's super rational, not ir-rational... yes, He does supernaturally break into our lives and make changes... I have had numerous "experiences" that were so powerful and life changing, I cry just thinking about them... He has orchestrated statistically improbable/impossible (ie miraculous) connections and events numerous times as well. There is no way I can deny the Holy Spirit and His life changing work in my life, not only through the "experiences, connections, etc" but also through how He has made His Word Living and Active...
I understand our denomination does not have a great historical tradition when it comes to the Holy Spirit (we were cessationist on paper until 1973, when it was refuted by Synod on paper, but not so much in practice, and we are still struggling in this area, if we will be honest about it). Several books that helped me were Jack Deere's Surprised by the Voice of God and Surprised by the Power of the Spirit... Jack has a cessationist background, so we can relate to that... (quick disclaimer, read it with discernment, as at least one of the people he mentions have had some serious moral issues since the books were written). Just yesterday someone alerted me to a book called "Holy Fire" by RT Kendall... that will be one of my next readings...
I think one of the ways to fight this thing is to get a better understanding of the Holy Spirit, hungering for God and His Word. I feel I've only scratched the surface so far in my journey and for the last 7 years or so, the Holy Spirit has been one of the primary focuses of my studying and discussions with people and I will testify that Scripture has become significantly more living and active in the last 7 years than I had ever experienced in the 25 years before that. I've been very blessed in how God has connected me with other believers from different Christian "streams" to help me grow in this, but it will always take discernment and knowing His Word and spending time with Him.
one more point for now (and by the way, thanks for being willing to engage in discussion... I truly believe iron sharpens iron, and sometimes we avoid doing so because we don't want to offend anyone)... that was a great point that sin in general objectifies people, I had never thought of that before... however, I will submit that porn has a way of doing so at a far more rapid pace (which leads to abuse and violence), and there have been studies to show this.
and here's an article from 2012 as one example of some of the material I've read on this... and it's written by a guy who has worked with these types of issues for 20 years...
http://blogs.christianpost.com/guest-views/sexual-sin-in-the-ministry-8613/
again, thank you for being will to share your thoughts... this is a HUGE issue, and so, yup, the responses get long...
Posted in: Hypocrisy
wow, that convinced me even more that it's the Holy Spirit and prayer over the suggestions you listed, they sound like man's ways/our own understanding... God's ways are good and beautiful, even if we don't understand them (I think of Prov 3:5-6/Is 55:9-10)... one of the prayers I pray often is from Eph 1 open the eyes (spiritual senses) our our hearts... we need our spiritual eyes and ears open to hear Him and see the world through His eyes... when our spiritual senses are awakened, sensitive to Him, our entire perspective changes... everyone is beautiful, no matter how the world "labels/views" them... because we are all God's creation made in His image... I "experienced" seeing people through "God's eyes" to some extent for about one year - I remember exactly when and where it started - it was profound, however, over time, it shifted back to "normal"... now i have to be intentional about seeing everyone as beautiful and recognizing the potential He has given to each person, which is fine, I'm very thankful I had that experience to help me better understand how God sees us... it gave me a glimpse of His heart for people, but also recognizing how the enemy tries to steal the potential God gave us.
another prayer is for a spiritual hunger to know Him more... Taste and see that the Lord is good... I hunger after Him, I relate to the cry in Psalm 84 where the psalmist says "my heart and flesh cry out for the living God..., better is one day in your courts than a 1000 elsewhere" and in Psalm 40 where the deer longs for water, so my soul longs for God... once we have tasted Him, we want more... nothing else will satisfy... including our fleshly desires... we sell ourselves way short when we try to satisfy ourselves through earthly pleasure (not saying they are all wrong, just saying they don't compare). One caveat, God responds differently if we are just looking for the "experience" or if we are truly seeking Him... I discovered that some are looking for the spiritual experience, not God necessarily, and then you get into really weird stuff and open yourself up to all kinds of counterfeit garbage (the enemy loves to deceive)...
I know God can "speak" to anyone, anyway, any time (and yes, He speaks through people - which is the prophetic)... Scripture is His primary way, and His "message" will always line up with His word (if it doesn't, it's not Him)... One other book that is my main go to guide on hearing God is "Can you hear Me? Tuning in to the God Who speaks" by Brad Jersak... The weekend I got that book, my entire prayer life shifted (not just because of the book, but also because of a sequence of "hearing God" very specifically emphasizing the prayer "open the eyes of my heart" - my "experience" of seeing through God's eyes happened 4 weeks later). My life has been profoundly affected since then... that weekend was when Scripture became Living and Active at a whole new level for me... before that prayer had mostly been a one way monologue (with some exception)... after that weekend... wow. God transformed my prayer life and my faith... it hasn't been easy... with the cessationist strain still in the crc, it's tended to be seen by some as heretical and gets dismissed or worse... but i would not and can not go back ... it is my heart's desire that all would "see and hear" Him to know Him more through our spiritual senses... nothing compares to Him... He alone is worthy of our worship and obedience... this is His due... pursue Him with all our hearts... as King David wrote... one thing I ask of the LORD, this is what I seek; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the BEAUTY of the Lord and to seek Him in His temple. That is one of my prayers for the Kingdom Church.
hope that makes sense ;) in a spiritual way!