I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
Bless your hearts... I hope and pray, that your family is experiencing God's healing in your inner beings... that you know that you are a new creation in Christ, beautiful, spotless, pure and holy... as part of His family. The stories are heart breaking, but so necessary and I hope healing in some way for those who are sharing them as well as for others. Know that God is using your voice, on behalf of your sister and others that have similar experiences, to help bring justice to and refine His Bride, that the dross will be consumed... as these abusive situations are exposed, this unholy behavior will no longer be tolerated and those who do such will be held accountable, instead of protected... not out of vengeance, but to protect others that might be harmed in the future, and for their own souls.
Ironically, 80+% of pastors think their church is a safe place for DV victims... while... 96% of domestic violence (DV) victims that have gone to the church for help do NOT recommend going to the church. HUGE disconnect!
I am thankful to see this opportunity for people to share their stories anonymously... bless your brave hearts! know that I believe you! I hope and pray that this will be healing and helpful for everyone, but especially healing for those who have been harmed and helpful for those who have been unaware of these abuses going on and for those who have been part of the problem of silencing and covering these things up... and even the negative comments, confirm that exposing this bad behavior runs into much resistance and it's still out there... the negative comments bring these hidden attitudes into the light... thank you for being brave enough to share... even though this does get ugly, it's being exposed so it can be addressed... stay strong sisters and brothers who are choosing to share... and those who are considering it... Know that you are precious, priceless and beautiful! Your voice is a part of the far greater movement of bringing this unholy behavior into the light! thank you!
and for those who choose not to at this time (if ever)... you are not alone...
Bless your heart Amy, I'm so sorry for what you experienced. Know that you are precious and priceless, even though you might not feel that way with how you have been treated. I have grieved over the state of the church over the appalling abusive behavior and the subsequent silencing and cover up from leaders on numerous situations. I hope and pray that through your therapist and the power of the Holy Spirit, you will find healing and wholeness again, not just emotionally and physically, but spiritually. It's a journey, with many ups and downs, and sharing your story is part of the journey... know that your voice is a part of this unprecedented movement exposing unhealthy and unholy actions and attitudes in the church and beyond, bringing healing to those who have been hurt and exposing the behavior of those who have been protected for far too long... so that these abuses and assaults can be addressed better, and those harmed protected instead of running into similar denial and resistance that you experienced... For His glory, and our good...
Dear Mr. Invisible, I would love to meet you (and your family) for coffee and talk about our mutual faith in Jesus... you live in the Lynden area, right? tell me when and where, and I (and maybe some of my family as well) will be there =)... been praying for you, bro!
the Holy Spirit can and will use anything to minister to anyone when He wants, even secular songs... songs that are still in the making, songs that are just seconds old or centuries old... is every song going to speak to everyone the same way, no, and even if we do get snobby about our music preference, He still can and does use it to melt our hearts... I remember walking into an Avalon concert with a very bad attitude -I would have preferred not to be there, and He melted and convicted me in less than one minute after the first song started... i was weeping so hard, i could not stop the entire concert and for well over a year afterward anytime i heard on the radio the song that the Holy Spirit used to melt and convict me, i would immediately start crying again, it was that powerful and life changing... and part of the message God put on my heart at that concert was "don't limit what I can use to minister to you"... He can use anything to minister to anyone. (and believe me, you can't work up any emotionalism in less than a minute of music, especially starting the bad attitude i walked in with)
Jeff... I would be interested in a further elaboration on this point if you would be willing =)
BOQ...the area where we really lag is the mediating one of Orthopathy...right emotion, right affection, right passion. By this I mean not passing feelings so much as stable defining affections and passions, modelled after Gods own heart, defined by the gospel, which motivate us into orthopraxis. (Orthopathy, I would further say, is the domain of spiritual formation) This issue of Orthopathy is one which our denomination has often struggled with, often minimizing the role of affectivity in the Christian life. I also think it was a tangential but unspoken element in our recent debates concerning third wave pentecostalism EOQ. EOQEOQ
There is a time for each... both are scriptural... praise would more likely include the dancing and shouting, while deeper worship would be more subdued... Ezra 3:10-13 is an amazing example where both are happening at the same time! but it seems like we are mostly on the quiet (reserved?) side... and an attitude i run into about shouting for the LORD is that it is irreverent. WWWhen I've brought it up, that maybe we should shout to the LORD and make a joyful noise, like the Psalms say, these are several responses: I hope not, or why would we want to do that, that's not me - I'm not like that, I just don't get excited, or again, we were taught that's not reverent (maybe dignified?). I hear criticism for people raising their hands in church, that it is distracting... these types of praise are biblical concepts and i have heard lots of justifications for why we (crc) don't need to do the more outwardly expressive ones. We can shout in our hearts?!?!? I watch people spontaneously shout and jump when their team scores or something happens in their favor!.. it is an immediate reaction! and there is outward expression and it can be pretty intense! Why, oh why, can we not do that for the Lord (when appropriate of course)?
I know the Holy Spirit is way beyond labels, but for practical purposes, we definitely have those that are comfortable with their and other's emotions, and those that are not (think David dancing with all his might and his wife's embarrassment and which one did God honor =/). I have heard the reasoning before that we can't judge someone's joy just because they aren't always "jumping" around and shouting because they could be celebrating internally, but unfortunately, we are (almost) never jumping around (well at least in praise & worship, again, we don't seem to have the same problem at sporting events)...
When is the last time you heard someone (including yourself) in the reformed tradition shouting for the LORD? Really shouting, all out victory yell? I don't need to know, but I simply ask the question, because in our reformed tradition of worship I have never heard it happen. So as John Z says, it is about responding to God completely... and so I ask are we doing this? The next question is do people even want to be doing this if it might include some forms of expression (dancing/shouting) that they are not comfortable with (yet)?
Worthy is the Lamb! He deserves our highest praise! We want people to fully respond to God in praise and worship, but it seems there are some hindrances - I apologize if I seem critical, but I believe God wants us (reserved types as well less reserved types) to more fully experience Him in worship, He's got so much more for us... do we want it? will we want it if it includes dancing and shouting? It's not that we've been worshipping wrong, but I believe God wants to expand our worship experience, it is for His glory, and the more we glory in Him - enjoy Him, the more glory He receives (what is the chief end of man?)... I've heard pastors in the charismatic stream, say they wish there was more reverence in their worship... so it goes both ways!
I have my own testimony as well as reading/hearing others as the LORD has released them more fully into praise and worship... but I will confess, when I read Ruth Heflin's Glory, it is like a foreign language... I can agree with the comment... BOQ "when I was first given your book, I didn't understand a word of it... " and i have only experienced the second half of the comment in a limited way, but enought that my life has been radically changed - BOQ "... but now that I've been touched by revival, the understanding has come to my by revelation, and my life has been totally changed" eoq
God has to change hearts, but we need to be at least aware of some of these concepts, and we need to know that these concepts of praise are biblical instead of being critical and closing the door on them and ????. We need a frame of reference for what God is working on in us.
I apologize for my long posts... these are topics and concerns that I read and study about almost every day (reading Intercessory Worship by Dick Eastman, and Glory by Ruth Heflin, Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, as well as a number of other books on worship, prayer), so I really could discuss this for days, as it ties in with the worship and prayer we have at the prayer center as well... I love your responses, your sharpening...
I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is Hebr. 4:12... the Word is living and active... there is a dynamic reaction via the Holy Spirit that is going on between what is shared and what is received that is just beyond explanation.
We tend to sit in the balcony, toward the back, so I can worship fairly freely with out getting the "look", and there's a little alcove that my daughter will dance in, where no one can see her unless they are right there... so that's how we try to limit the criticism of being a distraction. You are right, as we get more used to it, we will find it less distracting... we also have freedom at the prayer center to worship with dance, flags, etc... and at home of course =)...
That's an interesting question on Elijah and prophets of Baal... the story I think of is 2 Chron 20 - that while we worship, God can turn the enemy on each other (Ie story of 3 armies that were going to come against Jehoshaphat and ended up ambushing each other instead while Judah praised) and then Psalm 149:6-end... warfare can be a result of worship, (but it's not the primary reason), interestingly, Elijah did take the prophets down to the river to execute them. So not sure if that was to respect and honor the holy places of worship...
I just read this statment this morning in Dick E's book on Intercessory worship....BOQ "Reform" simply means "to change for the better" or "improve". It's not that all worship (and I would add prayer) in the Church today is deficient, but perhaps God wants to take us to higher heights and deeper depths of His glory. eoq p116
This resonates with what God is putting on my heart and what I'm seeing going on in our area. I believe God is calling us to dimensions of worship and prayer that we have not traditionally used much (if at all =) ie 24/7/continual worship and prayer as the Levites did in the days of King David... So being reformed, I think it helps to be aware that God wants to grow us in our worship and prayer to experience more of His glory for His glory. Personally for me, as i also read the book "Glory" by Ruth Heflin, i only have 2 worship experiences where I was undone in a profound way, and that gave me just a glimpse of what this "Glory" might be, otherwise it is foreign to me (so far). I know there is so much more of His glory that we can experience (on earth), and when we experience His glory, He gets the glory (just in case someone's thinking it's all about our experience - we experience His glory because He is God and He is a generous God, when we enjoy Him and delight in Him, He is glorified). I believe God is pointing me in that direction and giving me an awareness to search and ask for His glory (the song on the radio when I woke up this morning was "Show me Your Glory" by 3rd day). Other than those 2 experiences, my realm of experience doesn't have a clue what it's like, but I am now open and searching and have a frame of reference for what He is stirring up in my inner being - or "opening horizons of my soul". instead of wondering if I'm going off the deep end =)... not saying I get it yet -but He's got me digging into what it looks like to "enjoy" Him (Westminster), to delight in Him (Ps. 37:4), what (spiritual) intimacy with Christ looks like (yes, reading the Song of Songs even though the experts in the last 100 years or so are saying they no longer think it's an allegory of Christ and the Church or God and Israel - which was the common belief for centuries before that though) - concepts I would say the spock syndrom side of us has kind of stayed away from teaching on, at least not in-depth anyway since it seems to make us uncomfortable, but I firmly believe God's opening up new realms of worship and prayer for His Bride... so we can glory in His Holy Name for His Glory, more completely. What that looks like, well, it will probably be a life (eternal life?) long journey, but I'm on it!
So again, His glory is an entire discussion... in a nutshell... it's His Presence, which we can always experience at some level, you have the knowledge level that He is omnipresent, we have His presence in us as believers, and then you have His manifest presence aka revival type shekinah glory, and probably infinite levels in between and beyond.
sorry, Pete, you can jump in anytime and get us back to "preaching", but it is all related =)... at least to your original question on what makes worship valuable!!
I just love this kind of discussion/sharpening =)... thx. Pete for getting it started... hope you are gaining insight, as I know I am =)... taste and see that the LORD is good...
so did some research on "orthopathy", and what is fascinating to me is how "experience" is a key part. (emphasis mine in following quote).. I know i have heard experience slammed by preachers in our reformed tradtion. That could be part of the problem...
BOQ...T.H. Runyon first coined the term "orthopathy" in an article in 1987.[3]He identified orthopathy as a concept originated by Wesley that stood as "a necessary but currently missing complement to orthodoxy and orthopraxy." Runyon described orthopathy in epistemological terms as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant." As he explicated it, there are four factors involved in this epistemological event: (1) the divine source of experience, which makes impressions on the spiritual senses of the human beings; (2) the telos of experience: the intention of the source, the purpose and goal for the human being; (3) the transformation brought about through experience; and (4) the feelings that accompany the experience.EOQ[4
and I would love a better definition to explain the difference between "emotion" "feeling" and "affection"... just so we are on the same page there.
also, I think this line is what I mean when i say there is a dynamic reaction going on that the Holy Spirit orchestrates...
boq.. as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant".eoq e
(sorry, if i get extra letters, when I copy and paste for some reason what I type at the end doesn't show up on my screen, until I post, and then there they are : /)
Yummy food for thought!! (I know that is such an intellectual term =)
thanks Jeff... our inner man =) our inner being =), the eyes of our hearts...the spiritual senses, good stuff... hmmm... i'm going to keep reflecting on the nuances between emotions, passions, feelings and affections... as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is instead highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
very confirming as John mentioned our new heart, and I've been wrestling w. our (reformed tradition) over emphasis of Jer. 17:9 (wicked heart) and Is. 64:6 (deeds are filthy rags), instead of emphasizing that we are new creations in Christ, and we have been given a new, good heart. That Jesus purifies our acts and makes them beautiful, clean, fine bright linen worthy of the wedding garment for His Bride. and as I'm re-reading Richard Foster's book "Celebration of Discipline"..
But, Jeff, I would be interested in further explanation of why you think orthopathy was a tangential, yet unspoken element regarding the 3rd wave pentecostal discussion/report... what do you mean by that?
again, thx. for taking the time and sharing your perspectives on this =)
Posted in: S.O.S. My Sister's Story
Bless your hearts... I hope and pray, that your family is experiencing God's healing in your inner beings... that you know that you are a new creation in Christ, beautiful, spotless, pure and holy... as part of His family. The stories are heart breaking, but so necessary and I hope healing in some way for those who are sharing them as well as for others. Know that God is using your voice, on behalf of your sister and others that have similar experiences, to help bring justice to and refine His Bride, that the dross will be consumed... as these abusive situations are exposed, this unholy behavior will no longer be tolerated and those who do such will be held accountable, instead of protected... not out of vengeance, but to protect others that might be harmed in the future, and for their own souls.
Ironically, 80+% of pastors think their church is a safe place for DV victims... while... 96% of domestic violence (DV) victims that have gone to the church for help do NOT recommend going to the church. HUGE disconnect!
Posted in: S.O.S. Sharing Our Stories
I am thankful to see this opportunity for people to share their stories anonymously... bless your brave hearts! know that I believe you! I hope and pray that this will be healing and helpful for everyone, but especially healing for those who have been harmed and helpful for those who have been unaware of these abuses going on and for those who have been part of the problem of silencing and covering these things up... and even the negative comments, confirm that exposing this bad behavior runs into much resistance and it's still out there... the negative comments bring these hidden attitudes into the light... thank you for being brave enough to share... even though this does get ugly, it's being exposed so it can be addressed... stay strong sisters and brothers who are choosing to share... and those who are considering it... Know that you are precious, priceless and beautiful! Your voice is a part of the far greater movement of bringing this unholy behavior into the light! thank you!
and for those who choose not to at this time (if ever)... you are not alone...
https://twitter.com/hashtag/WhyIDidntReport?src=hash
I trust God's timing for His leading in your healing through the power of the Holy Spirit!
Posted in: S.O.S. Amy's Story
Bless your heart Amy, I'm so sorry for what you experienced. Know that you are precious and priceless, even though you might not feel that way with how you have been treated. I have grieved over the state of the church over the appalling abusive behavior and the subsequent silencing and cover up from leaders on numerous situations. I hope and pray that through your therapist and the power of the Holy Spirit, you will find healing and wholeness again, not just emotionally and physically, but spiritually. It's a journey, with many ups and downs, and sharing your story is part of the journey... know that your voice is a part of this unprecedented movement exposing unhealthy and unholy actions and attitudes in the church and beyond, bringing healing to those who have been hurt and exposing the behavior of those who have been protected for far too long... so that these abuses and assaults can be addressed better, and those harmed protected instead of running into similar denial and resistance that you experienced... For His glory, and our good...
Posted in: Caring for Parents Who Have a Child with a Disability
Dear Mr. Invisible, I would love to meet you (and your family) for coffee and talk about our mutual faith in Jesus... you live in the Lynden area, right? tell me when and where, and I (and maybe some of my family as well) will be there =)... been praying for you, bro!
Posted in: Caring for Parents Who Have a Child with a Disability
looking forward to meeting you... will give you a call Saturday some time =)
Posted in: My Grandmother Saved It, My Mother Threw It Away, and Now I'm Buying It Back
the Holy Spirit can and will use anything to minister to anyone when He wants, even secular songs... songs that are still in the making, songs that are just seconds old or centuries old... is every song going to speak to everyone the same way, no, and even if we do get snobby about our music preference, He still can and does use it to melt our hearts... I remember walking into an Avalon concert with a very bad attitude -I would have preferred not to be there, and He melted and convicted me in less than one minute after the first song started... i was weeping so hard, i could not stop the entire concert and for well over a year afterward anytime i heard on the radio the song that the Holy Spirit used to melt and convict me, i would immediately start crying again, it was that powerful and life changing... and part of the message God put on my heart at that concert was "don't limit what I can use to minister to you"... He can use anything to minister to anyone. (and believe me, you can't work up any emotionalism in less than a minute of music, especially starting the bad attitude i walked in with)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
Jeff... I would be interested in a further elaboration on this point if you would be willing =)
BOQ...the area where we really lag is the mediating one of Orthopathy...right emotion, right affection, right passion. By this I mean not passing feelings so much as stable defining affections and passions, modelled after Gods own heart, defined by the gospel, which motivate us into orthopraxis. (Orthopathy, I would further say, is the domain of spiritual formation) This issue of Orthopathy is one which our denomination has often struggled with, often minimizing the role of affectivity in the Christian life. I also think it was a tangential but unspoken element in our recent debates concerning third wave pentecostalism EOQ. EOQEOQ
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
There is a time for each... both are scriptural... praise would more likely include the dancing and shouting, while deeper worship would be more subdued... Ezra 3:10-13 is an amazing example where both are happening at the same time! but it seems like we are mostly on the quiet (reserved?) side... and an attitude i run into about shouting for the LORD is that it is irreverent. WWWhen I've brought it up, that maybe we should shout to the LORD and make a joyful noise, like the Psalms say, these are several responses: I hope not, or why would we want to do that, that's not me - I'm not like that, I just don't get excited, or again, we were taught that's not reverent (maybe dignified?). I hear criticism for people raising their hands in church, that it is distracting... these types of praise are biblical concepts and i have heard lots of justifications for why we (crc) don't need to do the more outwardly expressive ones. We can shout in our hearts?!?!? I watch people spontaneously shout and jump when their team scores or something happens in their favor!.. it is an immediate reaction! and there is outward expression and it can be pretty intense! Why, oh why, can we not do that for the Lord (when appropriate of course)?
I know the Holy Spirit is way beyond labels, but for practical purposes, we definitely have those that are comfortable with their and other's emotions, and those that are not (think David dancing with all his might and his wife's embarrassment and which one did God honor =/). I have heard the reasoning before that we can't judge someone's joy just because they aren't always "jumping" around and shouting because they could be celebrating internally, but unfortunately, we are (almost) never jumping around (well at least in praise & worship, again, we don't seem to have the same problem at sporting events)...
When is the last time you heard someone (including yourself) in the reformed tradition shouting for the LORD? Really shouting, all out victory yell? I don't need to know, but I simply ask the question, because in our reformed tradition of worship I have never heard it happen. So as John Z says, it is about responding to God completely... and so I ask are we doing this? The next question is do people even want to be doing this if it might include some forms of expression (dancing/shouting) that they are not comfortable with (yet)?
Worthy is the Lamb! He deserves our highest praise! We want people to fully respond to God in praise and worship, but it seems there are some hindrances - I apologize if I seem critical, but I believe God wants us (reserved types as well less reserved types) to more fully experience Him in worship, He's got so much more for us... do we want it? will we want it if it includes dancing and shouting? It's not that we've been worshipping wrong, but I believe God wants to expand our worship experience, it is for His glory, and the more we glory in Him - enjoy Him, the more glory He receives (what is the chief end of man?)... I've heard pastors in the charismatic stream, say they wish there was more reverence in their worship... so it goes both ways!
I have my own testimony as well as reading/hearing others as the LORD has released them more fully into praise and worship... but I will confess, when I read Ruth Heflin's Glory, it is like a foreign language... I can agree with the comment... BOQ "when I was first given your book, I didn't understand a word of it... " and i have only experienced the second half of the comment in a limited way, but enought that my life has been radically changed - BOQ "... but now that I've been touched by revival, the understanding has come to my by revelation, and my life has been totally changed" eoq
God has to change hearts, but we need to be at least aware of some of these concepts, and we need to know that these concepts of praise are biblical instead of being critical and closing the door on them and ????. We need a frame of reference for what God is working on in us.
I apologize for my long posts... these are topics and concerns that I read and study about almost every day (reading Intercessory Worship by Dick Eastman, and Glory by Ruth Heflin, Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, as well as a number of other books on worship, prayer), so I really could discuss this for days, as it ties in with the worship and prayer we have at the prayer center as well... I love your responses, your sharpening...
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is Hebr. 4:12... the Word is living and active... there is a dynamic reaction via the Holy Spirit that is going on between what is shared and what is received that is just beyond explanation.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
We tend to sit in the balcony, toward the back, so I can worship fairly freely with out getting the "look", and there's a little alcove that my daughter will dance in, where no one can see her unless they are right there... so that's how we try to limit the criticism of being a distraction. You are right, as we get more used to it, we will find it less distracting... we also have freedom at the prayer center to worship with dance, flags, etc... and at home of course =)...
That's an interesting question on Elijah and prophets of Baal... the story I think of is 2 Chron 20 - that while we worship, God can turn the enemy on each other (Ie story of 3 armies that were going to come against Jehoshaphat and ended up ambushing each other instead while Judah praised) and then Psalm 149:6-end... warfare can be a result of worship, (but it's not the primary reason), interestingly, Elijah did take the prophets down to the river to execute them. So not sure if that was to respect and honor the holy places of worship...
I just read this statment this morning in Dick E's book on Intercessory worship....BOQ "Reform" simply means "to change for the better" or "improve". It's not that all worship (and I would add prayer) in the Church today is deficient, but perhaps God wants to take us to higher heights and deeper depths of His glory. eoq p116
This resonates with what God is putting on my heart and what I'm seeing going on in our area. I believe God is calling us to dimensions of worship and prayer that we have not traditionally used much (if at all =) ie 24/7/continual worship and prayer as the Levites did in the days of King David... So being reformed, I think it helps to be aware that God wants to grow us in our worship and prayer to experience more of His glory for His glory. Personally for me, as i also read the book "Glory" by Ruth Heflin, i only have 2 worship experiences where I was undone in a profound way, and that gave me just a glimpse of what this "Glory" might be, otherwise it is foreign to me (so far). I know there is so much more of His glory that we can experience (on earth), and when we experience His glory, He gets the glory (just in case someone's thinking it's all about our experience - we experience His glory because He is God and He is a generous God, when we enjoy Him and delight in Him, He is glorified). I believe God is pointing me in that direction and giving me an awareness to search and ask for His glory (the song on the radio when I woke up this morning was "Show me Your Glory" by 3rd day). Other than those 2 experiences, my realm of experience doesn't have a clue what it's like, but I am now open and searching and have a frame of reference for what He is stirring up in my inner being - or "opening horizons of my soul". instead of wondering if I'm going off the deep end =)... not saying I get it yet -but He's got me digging into what it looks like to "enjoy" Him (Westminster), to delight in Him (Ps. 37:4), what (spiritual) intimacy with Christ looks like (yes, reading the Song of Songs even though the experts in the last 100 years or so are saying they no longer think it's an allegory of Christ and the Church or God and Israel - which was the common belief for centuries before that though) - concepts I would say the spock syndrom side of us has kind of stayed away from teaching on, at least not in-depth anyway since it seems to make us uncomfortable, but I firmly believe God's opening up new realms of worship and prayer for His Bride... so we can glory in His Holy Name for His Glory, more completely. What that looks like, well, it will probably be a life (eternal life?) long journey, but I'm on it!
So again, His glory is an entire discussion... in a nutshell... it's His Presence, which we can always experience at some level, you have the knowledge level that He is omnipresent, we have His presence in us as believers, and then you have His manifest presence aka revival type shekinah glory, and probably infinite levels in between and beyond.
sorry, Pete, you can jump in anytime and get us back to "preaching", but it is all related =)... at least to your original question on what makes worship valuable!!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I just love this kind of discussion/sharpening =)... thx. Pete for getting it started... hope you are gaining insight, as I know I am =)... taste and see that the LORD is good...
so did some research on "orthopathy", and what is fascinating to me is how "experience" is a key part. (emphasis mine in following quote).. I know i have heard experience slammed by preachers in our reformed tradtion. That could be part of the problem...
BOQ...T.H. Runyon first coined the term "orthopathy" in an article in 1987.[3]He identified orthopathy as a concept originated by Wesley that stood as "a necessary but currently missing complement to orthodoxy and orthopraxy." Runyon described orthopathy in epistemological terms as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant." As he explicated it, there are four factors involved in this epistemological event: (1) the divine source of experience, which makes impressions on the spiritual senses of the human beings; (2) the telos of experience: the intention of the source, the purpose and goal for the human being; (3) the transformation brought about through experience; and (4) the feelings that accompany the experience.EOQ[4
above quote is from the following link:
http://www.holytrinitynewrochelle.org/horton-parkerradicalorthodoxy.html
and I would love a better definition to explain the difference between "emotion" "feeling" and "affection"... just so we are on the same page there.
also, I think this line is what I mean when i say there is a dynamic reaction going on that the Holy Spirit orchestrates...
boq.. as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant".eoq e
(sorry, if i get extra letters, when I copy and paste for some reason what I type at the end doesn't show up on my screen, until I post, and then there they are : /)
Yummy food for thought!! (I know that is such an intellectual term =)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
thanks Jeff... our inner man =) our inner being =), the eyes of our hearts...the spiritual senses, good stuff... hmmm... i'm going to keep reflecting on the nuances between emotions, passions, feelings and affections... as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is instead highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
very confirming as John mentioned our new heart, and I've been wrestling w. our (reformed tradition) over emphasis of Jer. 17:9 (wicked heart) and Is. 64:6 (deeds are filthy rags), instead of emphasizing that we are new creations in Christ, and we have been given a new, good heart. That Jesus purifies our acts and makes them beautiful, clean, fine bright linen worthy of the wedding garment for His Bride. and as I'm re-reading Richard Foster's book "Celebration of Discipline"..
But, Jeff, I would be interested in further explanation of why you think orthopathy was a tangential, yet unspoken element regarding the 3rd wave pentecostal discussion/report... what do you mean by that?
again, thx. for taking the time and sharing your perspectives on this =)