Sam Hamstra

Erin, thank you for your comment. I concur with the temptation but have not been able to identify its root cause. Maybe it is an aversion to risk. I say that because shepherding people can be difficult.

John, thanks for your comments. I am sure there are a few pastors who may be tempted by sloth. I don't know many and that hasn't been my experience. Unfortunately, the temptation of success, as well my people-pleasing tendencies, has resulted in the opposite problem: a disregard of a biblical pattern of work and rest.

Thanks, Doug, for the suggestion.  I don't know first hand, but such experiences may have played a role in the development of groups like ECO and LCMC.

Bill you are right on.  That is the kind of info that would be delivered by regional reps to the headquarters.  And the kind of info that would most-likely results in a significant reduction in denominational offices and agencies.

Thanks for pointing me to Suttle's book.  I concur with the mark of faithfulness when understood as faithfulness to join with God in his mission to seek and save the lost by making disciples. But I wonder about the biblical/theological  foundation for Suttle's marks of faithfulness: demonstrated growth in the leadership virtues of vulnerability, cooperation, brokenness, patience, and fidelity.  How did he come to that list?

Also wondering if you would discount any connection between faithfulness and the number of baptisms/professions of faith?  

Thanks, Doug, for your affirmation of the proposal. And I'll start thinking about part 3

Paul, thank you for your thoughtful response to Bill Hybels.  I believe he has also said that the local church is the hope of the world.  And I believe that statement is pretty important to his approach to ministry.  But Willow Creek or Bill Hybels or the Seeker Sensitive movement are not the source of my statement. Your response, as well as Bill's, encourages me to flesh that our a bit.  I hope to do that soon.

Having said that, we agree that the local church is called to join God in his mission to seek and save the lost by making disciples. Pastors would benefit form conversations about benchmarks for discipleship in their ministry contexts.

Bill, I think you caught me! Right or wrong, I have a very high view of the local church (which I think reflects my pneumatology, my love for Paul's letters to the Corinthians, and my friendship with the late, great John Williamson Nevin).

I have observed, perhaps you have as well, that many view the church politically or organizationally as a voluntary society or collective of like-minded individuals. I suggest that this type of thinking flows from the politics of American republications with its inherent call for the separation of church and state. But maybe there is more to it than that.

In contrast, I take the apostle Paul's teaching to the messed-up Corinthians church at face value. I believe the local church is the people of God the Father, the bride and body of Christ (the presence of Christ in a community), and the temple of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 3:16) consisting of individuals who are also temples of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 6:19). By the promised presence and power of the Holy Spirit at work within the local church, she can do far more  abundantly than she can ask or imagine. 

No other group, not even a denomination, can claim to be the temple of the Holy Spirit consisting of many individuals who are also temples of the Holy Spirit. (Granted, a group can claim that some of its individuals are temples of the Holy Spirit.) No group other than the local church can claim the promises made to churches like that of Corinth or those in Ephesus or to contemporary local congregations. That's why, for me, the local church is the hope of the world.  

To your second point, I have had the privilege of witnessing many congregations throughout North and Central America minister effectively to the poor, the weak, and the forgotten. That is not to say, however, that a cluster of congregations wouldn't come together to do so together, or that a congregation wouldn't initiate a conversation with its denomination for help in this area. This may be an area where a denomination could help its local congregations better fulfill its mission.

And I affirm your emphasis on the importance of confession and accountability. I would  hope that local congregations would find value in both accountability and shared confessions.  In my estimation, those are two essential functions of  a denomination.

Thanks again, Bill. 

Thanks Bev.  You raise some good points about the relationship between the organism (the local church) and the organization (the denomination). 

As you note, the denomination is a human construct that, we trusts, helps the local church join with God in his mission to seek and save the lost by making disciples, even among the least of these.  But as a human construct, I find helpful and even necessary to, at least, protect churches from pastors and pastors from churches. Congregations, like individual Christ-followers, benefit from accountability, don't you think?

Thanks 

And your last comment seems to me right on.

Thanks for your response. It confirms that the crcna is taking the repair option discussed in part 1. I hope the efforts are successful. As I noted in part 1, I lean towards the reform option though it is nothing more than an idea, though the ECO suggest that it may work.