John VanLeeuwen

We are just getting into this, we call it "Intergenerational Worship", (too bad we can't mix that one up like wii, a bit of humour is always helpful!). I am the organist , Praise Team and Organist have been playing together in the services since we installed our "new" pipe organ in 2003, it works. Now we have youth led services once in the three months, how it will work out is unknown at this time, but our youth leader kicked my proverbial conservative behind by challenging me to play the electronic keyboard with them (heresy!?). We had one of our hymn fests, but this time in the morning service, the Genesis Club participated with the processional hymn, two 15 year old girls volunteered to sing a solo during the offertory (they picked a hymn!, I was thrilled), I played the keyboard for the first time while they sang, (I didn't know that I could play the violin, cello, flute and pan flute!, before the girls sang I announced to the congregation that in the last two weeks I had learned to play these instruments, a few came up after the service and asked where I was standing when I played these instruments, GOTCHA!) another young lady sang a solo with one of our youth leaders, a whole new world opened up for myself and I hope for the congregation as well. Our goal is to have us all appreciate the different ways in how we feel connected to God no matter how that is expressed, a two way street and tall order, but with Gods help it will be so.

A lot of comments about how do we do this, what should we do, the church must or should......., A very interesting question I read a while ago was, How come you Christians never show up if you are not in control, this may tie in with Kuiper's writing mentioned above about church and state being separated, with which i agree 100%. BUT, we should be in the business of the state, of inner city youth work, of shelters for the homeless etc., we are called to be the salt of the earth, does this saying imply that too much salt is not good?

Hey Billwald, forgive my un-knowledge of what is where in the Bible, it sounds like you are testing the limits of how far you can go, (which kids and adolescents do, it's a part of growing up), is that different from hiding our sin? doesn't  Paul  (I think, straighten me out if needed) not write the question that if we accept the Christ, our sins are forgiven and so we can sin more so that grace can abound? the answer to that is, by no means. I think that we are sinful by nature, even after accepting Jesus as your saviour, and so we are "as if without sin before God". So, us doing something wrong and deal with God afterward is a bit like the Roman Catholic Church and their indulgences, which set Martin Luther on the path to reformation. But, you're not alone, I wouldn't be far off the mark if I say we all do it, besides why are we in church? to show how good and holy we are, a condition we should strive for, but also one we like to use too much, keeping others away as well. It looks like the proverbial circle, and nothing is new under the sun doesn't it.

Just a follow up on our first intergenerational service, to which I must admit I looked forward to, but with the same trepidation as going to the dentist with a tooth ache. Thanks to this whole forum site I have been writing my inner feelings out on several of the forums, some calm, cool and collected, others not so much so, I guess that it is part of coming to grips with the changes happening in our services. Being a bit offish to the service since I was going to play the whole service on the keyboard I was a bit reluctant, but, it went very well, and since it was a "youth led" service, it was nice to be Worshipping with them. Some mom's were involved as well and hopefully we'll have some more members involved the next service they will look after. So, thank you Forum and all that write in these, even if it is not directed at my little problems, unwittingly,you may have an impact on someone somewhere in CRC land. to God all the Glory, bless you all.

Hey! I just thought of a name for all you people writing to /in these forums, how about "Re-Forum-ers"?, I'll put it up as an Forum!

Hi Spitfire, after reading your last reply I was thinking, some people received new names in the bible, i.e. Abraham, Jacob, and more, I like Spitfire, but I thought that "Peacemaker" would suit you very well! ( I don't expect you to change it though, but God loves the Peace Maker). Yes, you can share it with anyone you want, my comments like anything else in this world are not my own but belong to God,( and He forgives all the dumb things I say too!), after all He knows before I speak what is going to come out, John.

Hi Spitfire, WOW, this is mind blowing, off putting to in and outsiders, how unbiblical can it get, Christians are not supposed to sue each other but find other ways to solve your problems, as you have done previously. There are two sides to a coin but it sounds that you and others are terribly mistreated here. Is there any possibility your minister can intervene on your behalf?, the church community is a big supporter of this school I presume and may have some influence talking to them. Now, to get out of the biblical realm, our news paper that we receive has a consumer help column, if people have tried to solve their differences they can contact the paper who will intervene on their behalf, you can tell the other party that you will have to go public with your complaint, it seems to have mind changing powers on their thinking. God bless you in this, remember, He cares for the disadvantaged even if we don't.

Hi Spitfire (I don't know where you got that name from or for, my mothers eyes could spit fire if she had enough of our shenaniganism's!(:). Great that you take some time before "spitting fire" at the school, I have learned (but not all the time yet) to take the time to reflect on what I wrote, hit the SENT button, and promptly got into trouble!. Over reacting?, perhaps they should walk in yours and the rest of the families involved shoes before they say something like that, sounds like the government. Is there anything that you can do to help the situation?, family that can help out?, extra jobs certainly takes away family time, but it is not unheard of that people do it, would you still be interested in something like that. Don't answer these questions, it's non of my or anyone else's business, these are just some thoughts about the possibility of rectifying the situation, I get a sense of how important the schooling is for your kids and admire the hope you have to be able to give this to your kids. We are all sinners and do wrong, including anyone on any Christian based committee, if not, none of us would have to be involved with the church or it's institutions, our Hope lies in the Lord, I hope you won't loose that, my prayers for help and wisdom are with you in these coming days, God bless.

I do some of what my wee bit older colleague does, or skip playing if it really is not organ friendly, but sometimes you just have to get in there, the song has to be shouted from the rooftops so to speak. Next question, we don't do this, but I would like to play a Praise song, without the team sometimes, one that is suitable, we can differ in our thoughts on suitability, as in Celtic based songs, I happen to think, using the right stop settings, it sounds great on the organ, but yes, even while being new on the keyboard, there is some great stuff on it which enhances the songs, I am getting there.

Hi Graham, nobody seems interested in "going back" it seems, we are going the other way from yours, so I can't really help you, however, Chad Meeuwse wrote a letter above, he has some interesting ideas there, he is from Modesto Ca. I don't know if that is close to you or not, I am sure he can give you some good advice. We are working to go to Intergenerational from blended, which is great, all ages involved in the planning and participation in the services. The idea behind it is that we do not use hymns or organ because some people like it, or to try to keep them happy, but because they fit with the theme of the Worship that day. What I am a bit unsure of is if this also goes for the contemporary side. Also, go to the Worship Forum, there is a post about Intergenerational services, it may be of help to you. One question, where did the desire to reintroduce the hymns, and the use of the organ come from, is there some support for it? Blessings on your effort, John.

We are one of the Greying churches and some problems with words only on screen, and also not being able to see the "writing" on the wall" (screen) is another. I am not well versed in this copyright issue, but what I have picked up from the visual/sound crew is that we are licensed to display the words, but not the music when we are singing Praise songs. We have been at it for about 15 years and even the older generation is learning the songs and getting used to the style. If we would put the music on the screen it would, at least with some of the songs, cause great difficulty because of how the Team decides to sing the song. Frequently we repeat, skip, return to the beginning or somewhere else in the song, I don't think that many, even the younger generations would be able to pick up where they are supposed to look. So, firstly, as far as the notes are concerned, they will (have to) learn the songs eventually, unless you are constantly putting in new songs this will happen. Secondly, a really old, but wise woman said just last Sunday, that she has a problem with being able to see the words on screen, so she and her husband have moved from "their" regular seats to Isle seats where they have a better line of sight, problem solved, at least for them. You know how important one's seats are, The last time when I was in my home church in Holland, I recognized people from where they were (still) sitting after having been gone for 30 years, an uncle of mine would walk out if someone was in his spot when he came to church, so, it might be hard, but so would having to use a walker be, but you want to walk?, there is the solution, you want to see the words? there is the solution. Hope this is helpful.

Thanks Ken, yes it was difficult and it still is to see the glory of the organ sound fade away or at least get pushed to the back ground, many older folks miss it when it is not played much. But, is it my "role" or my "false god" if I get so upset about it? I play the keyboard a bit now, even try to play it at the same time I play the organ, perhaps, like the swinging pendulum, things will get better again and by working with the youth who knows what results will come of it years down the road. As you very well have discovered, the Lord leads where He wants us to go. (sometimes like to tell Him where that should be in my opinion, I presume that I am not alone in that).