John VanLeeuwen

A lot of comments about how do we do this, what should we do, the church must or should......., A very interesting question I read a while ago was, How come you Christians never show up if you are not in control, this may tie in with Kuiper's writing mentioned above about church and state being separated, with which i agree 100%. BUT, we should be in the business of the state, of inner city youth work, of shelters for the homeless etc., we are called to be the salt of the earth, does this saying imply that too much salt is not good?

Our church now uses the screen for a variety of announcements before the service or during the offertory. At times we have a video played during the offertory, sometimes with sound other times without. If the screen is free I usually play the organ during the offertory, if I have useful information about the music I write a short piece about it, explaining what it is, where it originated, for what purpose it was written etc., that info is projected on the screen during the offertory. The congregation is much more involved with it, having gained some understanding of what and why this music is being played, the chatter is much less, sometimes even completely absent, a much more worshipful atmosphere than the talking, rising and falling with the loudness of the music.

Hey all, James, (from your opening section of your book review last friday) well, that's me a lot of times, I am there listening to but not always absorbing the sermon at hand, our former youth minister used to say, you have them (youth) for 10, maybe 15 minutes, after that forget it. I happen to think that a lot of older than youth people have the same going on. So, does this mean that the day is lost as far as God's word is concerned?, I joke about it sometimes in our Bible study groups, we have a pastor in each we attend. I don't think so, you are at church, the Holy Spirit is there and you, paying full attention or not, are being "marinated" in God's wisdom and directions, kind of like having your food three times a day, but still taking the extra vitamins (think sermon) by taking pills. You take in minute (milligrams) of nurture, and then, someday in the near or further future, something comes up and you have the answer, the vitamins kicked in, the Spirit prompted, something of a sermon from some time past stuck. It's not always (ever?) our own strength that makes us so Bible smart or Christian living savvy. so, I try to stay with the sermon, but don't feel bad if i loose it sometimes.

Yes Ken, and still, I have a seesaw going on with my daughter, she used to not sing a word in church, now she listens to a Christian radio on the way to her work and she is blessed by the songs, the words of them and sings along. She does like the beauty of some of the hymns, Amazing Grace at the top of them, but yes, she says that the younger generation just does not get any satisfaction from them, words are old fashioned, the beat of the music is not there, and yes she does agree that this generation wants it now and the way they want it, if not they'll go somewhere else. My concern in that is where, an other church or......... End of story is that I so hope that they can learn to appreciate some of the wisdom of these old songs, if it must be with new music? even the Bible is translated to appeal more to unchurched and church people alike. A pardigm in society is indeed taking place with the electronic side of things, life styles etc., it can not be stopped, and is it all bad? you and I and many others can join in conversation about it, it seems that the church must move, as it has done in the past. COMPLICATED! Wow, you are right, God, help us please, to understand, to guide, to love and to work, talk  and listen to each other.

Allen, yes, I agree, the style of preaching makes a difference, and yes, the Message is the key in the service, a long sermon does not bother me, unless there is a lot of repeating. Attention span?, maybe it is talked into the kids inner being that that's all that they can take, and unfortunately we may move that idea forward and perpetuate/strengthen it in their mind, they hear things and figure it out pretty quick I am told. Do you think that these churches grow because of the preaching only, the whole service or are members actually inviting the new ones to come. 

Ken, you are helping my friend, I see your thoughtful, encouraging replies throughout the Forums, as God let the apostle Paul know after his requests to remove the thorn from his flesh, it's through weakness that things happen in Gods kingdom, you are one busy guy at work in that kingdom in my view. I read that you have MS, much in the news here about a treatment, developed by an italian doctor, still not allowed in Ontario, where the veins to the brain are treated like an Angioplasty, some people from Toronto were on the radio (yup, still listen to it!), they said they were much better, but there are risks involved, as always I presume. God Bless, John.

Thanks Ken JOHN VanderPol, my opa and my dad where also John (Jan), 4 brothers in our small town of about 1800 had a son with that name, so officially I was named Johannes-Ary, the called me Ary, which I changed to Jan when dad died when I was 14, which changed to John when I arrived in Canada and decided to stay. At least I stayed close to the original, my wife's dad was Marius, at his work they decided that they would call him Bill, lucky me! Ken, too bad you live so far away, would like to meet you, your replies are of enormous value in my search for my role in God's Kingdom in the future. We are having a regular ho hum budget congregational meeting tonight, yet, it, according to our pastor is going to be the most important meeting in the 5 years that he has been with us he said yesterday. The "steps into the future" committee is going to present something big, the ball has been set in motion, by God Himself one would think, and here I am looking for a way to fit in, and not so FAST please!, sometimes we don't have a choice it seems, will find out tonight. I played the organ and keyboard all at once during the collection which worked surprisingly well, that was good, on the gallery where the organ is located, it seats about 30 people was a young couple, with a baby, they left about 20 minutes into the service, the choir was looking after the Worship, so, very nice but mostly traditional stuff, one must think, is it because they didn't find the kind of atmosphere they were looking for, did we miss an opportunity to grow, us and them?, the signals keep rushing in to me, I am really flabergasted! Greetings, John. 

Well, the further I get into this, the more I have to read and learn, just glancing over this article makes me more comfortable, seeing how we can and must work together older/younger, the greatest obstacle to getting into this is I suspect, fear. Fear of loosing what you have known to be good for so long, and this going so fast sometimes, I am sure I am right when I say that communication is the key. This is not only communication between the different age groups, but with God as well, I have over heard in my church, and read in forums on this web that we must not stop to consider others who go slow or are standing still.  My Bible study group is studying the booklet "Listening to God", we just looked at "listening to God through advice from other Christians", don't talk to just one person, discern if these persons have something personal to gain from you if you follow their advise. The second point, and in My view the most important one, If this advice is going to hurt someone else, this advice is not coming from God, ever. Thanks for putting this up, I hope to learn lots!

Question, I just noticed that this article was posted in May, 2010, or is it January? and nobody has commented, is our church so far behind that we are the only one looking at this, the rest of you reached the goal already? Generally I find, since my writings are still rooted in the old, (perhaps somewhat archaic, or threatening maybe?) searching for reconciliation with the new, if it is about defending the organ (tradition), there usually is ,not always, no reply, am I standing in your way? just wondering.

I can't remember standing for the reading of the Word, the Apostolic creed which we used every Sunday was sung for a long time, but this was done in a time where we would stand for each hymn if able to do so. It has been suggested that we would stand for each song again, but that because one sings better standing. As for the reading for the sermon passage, our minister uses this mostly throughout the sermon. Is it important, Biblical? or is it legalistic?

Hi, I am an organist at the same church for more than 40 years now, we used to have a praise team once a month, no organ. The last couple of years the praise team is leading the service and I play with them on the organ and the keyboard every service (no MIDI). The organ is ok with all the songs, sometimes the organ only provides a base sound, some songs just sound better on the keyboard, and of course you can play different sounds on them, from flute or violin to trumpet or bagpipes, we are having a great old time with it. We just moved the organ console from the rear balcony to the front so that I am with the team, the keyboard is placed so that I can play it from the organ bench, even play organ and keyboard together. So, don't let them say it don't work before you give it a chance for a while, to me that is a reverse of us oldies who didn't want praise songs. And of course the band could not play during a praise song and let the organ do it if it is one that is written more in a hymn like way, that is a difficult one 'cause they would be just standing there, just singing. Good luck, God bless your efforts, John.

Hi Graham, nobody seems interested in "going back" it seems, we are going the other way from yours, so I can't really help you, however, Chad Meeuwse wrote a letter above, he has some interesting ideas there, he is from Modesto Ca. I don't know if that is close to you or not, I am sure he can give you some good advice. We are working to go to Intergenerational from blended, which is great, all ages involved in the planning and participation in the services. The idea behind it is that we do not use hymns or organ because some people like it, or to try to keep them happy, but because they fit with the theme of the Worship that day. What I am a bit unsure of is if this also goes for the contemporary side. Also, go to the Worship Forum, there is a post about Intergenerational services, it may be of help to you. One question, where did the desire to reintroduce the hymns, and the use of the organ come from, is there some support for it? Blessings on your effort, John.

We are one of the Greying churches and some problems with words only on screen, and also not being able to see the "writing" on the wall" (screen) is another. I am not well versed in this copyright issue, but what I have picked up from the visual/sound crew is that we are licensed to display the words, but not the music when we are singing Praise songs. We have been at it for about 15 years and even the older generation is learning the songs and getting used to the style. If we would put the music on the screen it would, at least with some of the songs, cause great difficulty because of how the Team decides to sing the song. Frequently we repeat, skip, return to the beginning or somewhere else in the song, I don't think that many, even the younger generations would be able to pick up where they are supposed to look. So, firstly, as far as the notes are concerned, they will (have to) learn the songs eventually, unless you are constantly putting in new songs this will happen. Secondly, a really old, but wise woman said just last Sunday, that she has a problem with being able to see the words on screen, so she and her husband have moved from "their" regular seats to Isle seats where they have a better line of sight, problem solved, at least for them. You know how important one's seats are, The last time when I was in my home church in Holland, I recognized people from where they were (still) sitting after having been gone for 30 years, an uncle of mine would walk out if someone was in his spot when he came to church, so, it might be hard, but so would having to use a walker be, but you want to walk?, there is the solution, you want to see the words? there is the solution. Hope this is helpful.