I am a Retired Pastor. Presently serving as Synodical Deupty (CAN). I authored the book Guiding the Faith Journey. Previously, I have served congregations in Calgary, AB and Sarnia, ON, and Lacombe, AB.
First, let me assume that you agree with the position of Synod ’73. Synod ’73 said that there was a difference between feelings of sexual attraction to the same sex and engaging in sexual practices with the same sex. That difference is important. If a person has feelings of same sex attraction, that would not mean a need to repent or be a problem to be solved. In Synod ’73 a person with such feelings was urged to live a celibate life seeking Christlikeness and kingdom service. Under this vision it is important to observe that there is nothing to condemn. Consequently, there needs to be a path for this person to live a holy life within the context of the church.
Second, pastorally consider the young person who happens to be struggling with issues of sexual identity or already knows that he is gay or she lesbian. It is important that this person is not condemned because of their sexual identity. Too often the language we use is not careful enough or clear enough and what comes through is that this child whom we are urged to lead into Christlikeness is condemned for their sexual orientation. We try to solve the problem (being gay) and place an unnecessary burden on them to change what they cannot change. All this while they have done no wrong.
Third, being gay is a way of being in this world. I do not mean by that being gay involves certain sexual practice. Any person can be celibate. What I mean is that by birth and experience every person has a certain way of seeing and being in relationship to others. That is a gift in the life of the church. Even a person’s sexual orientation is part of that way of seeing and being. It is not despite a person’s orientation but in their orientation that a person serves and relates. Our brothers and sisters who are gay need to know that we will not suppress of deny their unique perspectives and gifts for service. We need to see them as God’s gifts to the church. There is a healthy way to be person who is gay and who is Christian to be involved in the church’s life.
Fourth, it is important to understand that many do not agree with report ’73. Calling a person to repentance who does not believe that what they are doing anything wrong is a hard sell. At that point we need to do more than point a person to Synod ’73. That more will mean a willingness to submit to Scripture together and seek to understand it together. That in itself is a journey of caring. If we have confidence in Scripture and believe that the Spirit will lead in truth, we should not be afraid of this discussion.
Fiifth, when I speak about a path for the holy life, I am very concerned that all too often we have failed to have wonderful models of being Christian who are not “married with kids”. We imitate people we admire. We always ought to imitate Christ. We also imitate others (Paul even said to his readers ‘imitate me’). So who will the fifteen year old gay person admire? What path does he or she see ahead of them? I am looking for such models because just as I like to point young women to a woman who demonstrates Christian leadership, just as I like to encourage a native person to have models for living a faithful life with Christ that honours their heritage, I would like to show a young gay person a wonderful model of faithful and honest Christian life that acknowledges his or her sexual identity.
Sixth, there is always a time to call people to repentance. In a pastoral context this is seldom the first word. I would suggest that there are many times the first call to repentance needs to go to the bullies who have harmed the ones we love with hurtful words. There are also times when we need to repent for the way we have shamed sinners (like leaders in John 8). There are many other sins (financial and gossip) where we have been too silent though the sins were very obvious. I would always prefer to start with an authentic pastoral relationship in which another person knows I will be faithful with him or her as we walk together in Christ. Lets start with this generous spirit.
Back from Vacation so now comes a belated reply. I don't make excuses but I do want to understand and be fair. I hope I accept people as created and loved by God... loved enough so that Jesus would die for them. And I trust that all of us want to have the same attitude as Jesus did with "sinners and taxcollectors" - even when they are Pharisees. And so the question here is one of pastoral approach and attitude.
Two distinctions need to be made.
First, we need to remember the distinction that Synod made in '73. Having a same sex attration is not same as engaging in same sex practice. We can same the same about hetrosexuals: having an attraction to the opposite sex is not the same as engaging in hetrosexual sex. It is an important disticntion that we need to keep in mind in our language.
Second, we need to be careful not to assign every sexual feeling to lust. Just because our feelings can lead us astray does not mean that they always motivate us to sinful behaviour. Too often in our conversations about sexual identity our condemations of same sex attraction consign those who have such feelings to the judgments of God even when they have been faithful to God in their lives. Too often we have said to teeenagers that sexual desire is bad. I beg too differ. I hope that all of us can have sexual feelings and remain faithful to God. Yes, we all have sinful desires in our heart. But I would be careful about making all desires sinful desires. We have good and holy desires and feelings. Discerning and dealing with our desires will always be part of our walk with our God.
Finally, fact is every sunday we use the gifts of people who deny their sin and justify their sins. It happens with enviromental sins, greed, gossip and many other activities that undemine the well-being of community. Of course we seek repentance and renewal. But it does not always happen in our time. And yes, there always comes a time when some form of discipline and boundaries need to be used... but usually we do not act in haste.
Thanks for participating in the conversation.
I tend to make a few points when I teach about sexuality:
1. There is a distinction between sex and sexuality. The bible says little about sex. It is not a how to manual. I think the assumption of Scripture is that the biology of sex is either well known to the hearers or taught culturally in one way or another. Sexuality involves more than biology of sex, it is about how we relate as males and females.
2. The bible does give us some clear instructions as to what is forbidden. That is, it establishes some boundaries, for instance, no adultery and no incest. These are helpful in defining when we cross a boundary. The boundary is helpful in two ways.
a. Boundaries define us as persons. By saying NO to a sexual activity, we define ourselves in terms of our values and in terms of our personhood. For young girls this is particularly important. They are not extensions of / or objects of male sexuality. They are individuals who need to be valued for who they are, what they value and how they feel. This requires the ability to say NO.
b. Boundaries tell us when we are straying from a good path. There is a good path. There is a path of destruction. Our feelings and our present desires are not the way to judge right and wrong. The No of God ought to lead us in discerning the better path.
3. Much of what the bible teaches that helps us as sexual beings is about relationships. Relationships are central to our experience as sexual beings. Here are a few important biblical statements that help us:
a. The fruit of the spirit is … faithful. Faithfulness is a quality of the spiritual life. Now apply this to sexuality and sexual relationships. (consider proverbs on love and faithfulness)
b. “think not only of your own interests but the interests of others” (phil 2): so how does “thinking about another’s interests help in our sexual experience in marriage?
c. Forgive as you have been forgiven. This is about confession and forgiveness. This is about humility. This is about living in the deep recognition that what we receive is always a gift. For a husband and wife this means that each needs to see the other as gift.
4. These conversations mean that our spiritual lives have much to say about our relationships and the goodness of our sexual lives as male and female. Our vision of what is good and our walk with God ought to shape our sexuality. Our call is to be “like Christ” (point three) which means are eyes for Christ are central to our relationships as sexual beings.
5. Part of the whole story means dealing with desire. In our grade 7-12 teaching session, I used the book Hooked mentioned in the article because it gives us a good understanding of how sexual desire works biologically and how fulfilled that desire can lead us astray from real happiness in our love relationships. Much of Scripture deals invites us to shape our desires(to form them and to discipline them) by the Word of God. Proverbs repeatedly calls people to not follow their immediate desires because they are not the way of wisdom. There are fools and there are the wise. Romans 8 speaks of not following the desires of the flesh but to desire the desires of the Spirit.
6. To support a godly way in our sexual experience requires a supportive community. Because our sexuality is relational, the fact is that we live it in community. The social rules of the community play a huge part in how we live our sexuality. Boundaries are hard to maintain if no one else supports them. So being in a supportive community (hopefully the church is one, but is not always so) is vital to walking together in Christ as sexual beings.
Finally, I don’t know of material that covers all that. Maybe someone ought to write some material. Meantime, read and share. It all helps. And remember when it comes from you – as teacher, mentor and fellow sexual being- the youth listen with respect.
Hi Ted, thanks for your question. I think it would help to give a little more detail about your story. I am sure others are experiencing or have experienced something similar and would love to give you encouragement. Let us know more. Neil
First, if there is dirty laundry to deal with, it is usually a good idea to engage in some process to deal with these matters. Often times a good interim pastor can serve very well. A good interim will not only deal with past issues, they are often skilled in bringing some focus and positive sense of self-identity to the congregation.
Second, it sound like some transitions are happening in congregational life. One of the best things that especially senior members can do is to bless and encourage those who are seeking to lead the congregation. That sometimes takes some teaching. It does not help to complain about the change in culture or change in the experience of church life. The evening service is changing. Complaining about it won't help. Having 35 there means you have 35 people who can receive a blessing of church ministry. Do what blesses them. It is only when they speak with joy about their experience that others might say it is a good idea to join. The culture does not support organ music. We might be disappointed, frustrated by this change. But so it is. So I would think that our children will have another language of worship which is more of their native "musical" tongue. Transitions happen. There is a process that we can engage in that recognizes these changes and how the church can deepen the faith and life of the congregation along the way. Sometimes we call it visioning.
Third, you have ministries that are working. Celebrate them. Build on them.
Fourth, smaller congregations can not be what a large congregation is. But smaller congregations can do what is most needed: build community and love deeply. Most people - when they get out of themselves and their needs - discover that community and love is more important than "services to meet my needs". Because you are able to be "a people of God" in your community, there is every opportunity to thrive in the life of ministry and grace. A process like a vision process or "Holy Conversations"(Rundle & Mann) can be helpful in discerning your way with Christ.
Fifth, people don't leave when they are engaged with some hopefulness. The more quickly some process is adopted, the more people that can be involved, the more the council opens itself up to change, the more likely those considering leaving will become open to staying. They are asking Why Stay? Guilt is not an adequate reason. A new future is.
Sixth, finances trail the rest.
Because of the number of issues before you, it will take time. But regardless of the time it might take, adopting a process that will raise and engage the issues is critical. Council should engage some person to lead them through it. In interim pastor with such skills, or another person more like a consultant can go along way.
these are some things that have come to mind over the past week. I sure others have had some thoughts. Lets share.
I am always conscious of the tensions that are present in these comments. here are some I see:
1. the number of elders we need to visit regularly vs the number of people actually available to do the work.
2. visits as spiritual care vs visits as part of church management (how are we doing in our programs? do you have questions about the church?)
3. The time we need to do the work vs the time we actually have (8 evenings a month vs 3 evenings a month)
4. the blessing of the visits vs the difficulty in making arrangements with people who do not make it a priority. (there is a disconnect)
5. the focus on visits vs the many other activities that are required.
6. the present size of the elder's list (20-25) and the size of the list we could be effective with (10). I like the number 10 - comes from Moses.
I am sure I don't have answers to these tensions, but maybe in order to get beyond these tensions (and the accompanying failures), we need to think hard about the way we do elders' work. What is the centre of our call? How do we prioritize? Maybe we need to restructure the eldership and build more flexibility in the church order.
There are two issues that are appropriate for discussion:
First, is the business itself ethical? I don't know much about the business. Network marketing does not seem to me to be unethical. However, the particular business model maybe. WE could ask questions about whether or not the business is marketing to vulnerable persons? or whether or not the products are "good"? or whether it treats its workers justly (pay, working conditions, etc.).
Second, it may be that the person's business can create some conflicts of interest in the life of the church. Because of the ministry demands require certain kinds of relationships, the business relationships may jeopardize ministry. So it seems to me that it is worthwhile asking if the business relationships will undermine the leadership and pastoral relationships. Just as family relationships create conflicts, so too business relationships create conflicts.
I hope this provides some direction...
Neil
seems like there are few good suggestions to help you. I suppose in part this is because so many details are missing. Generalized solutions to particular problems will often fail to deal with nuance. I usually divide the issues, First there is the question: what is happening in the life of this person? This is where the sketchy information makes it difficult to make judgments. It is clear that the strength of love is a powerful movement in the persons life. But I wonder What is happening to a person's faith? I try to listen carefully to the language. So many times there are subtle suggestions that Christianity is just another form of spirituality.or perhaps there is a suggestion that the Scriptural words about being "unequally yoked" is not applicable in this situation. I also wonder how the person's future spouse deals with faith... supportive of the faith commitment? Antagonistic? There is so much left unsaid that addressing the concerns is difficult.
The second question involves the integrity of the church's voice. If a person disobeys the voice of God but continues in ministry does this not mean that the church's voice is compromised? Simple answer: yes. But how do we deal with this? Two points to make: First, there are times when a person needs to be withdrawn from a certain ministry. For instance if a person is a mentor to youth the integrity of the church's ministry maybe undermined. This is when the involvement of a person is restricted in a certain area. However, there are other activities for which this is not the case. Council needs to make a judgment. Second, how we approach this is another part of integrity. If we fail to show the compassion and love of Christ, we also fail the integrity test.
When I hear this kind of a conversation I always wonder to myself: to whom are my eyes directed? so many times out of fear or out of dysfunction in the system our eyes are directed to "those who might say ..." or "to those who might conclude..." . I would rather that our eyes get directed toward Christ and how we might represent the saving power of Christ in the life of our community.
Good Question. This is yet another example of how our lifestyle in North America was never contemplated by the framers of the church order. I appreciate that they wish to have committed relationships and that this is formalized. I am less certain about what this means for them. What responsibilities do they wish to embrace? What connection do they have when they are "down south"? What expectations do they have of the church and the church of them? Does their lifestyle effect the quality and meaningfulness of their realtionship to the congregation?
I have often found that those who are year round members find the quality of the relationship with part-time members dimishing over time. While they appreciate the desire, after a while distance and limited communication leaves the "part time" members out of the loop.
Membership does require certain commitments to the life of the congregation. The congregation has a right to know what to expect from these part time members. I would suggest that rather than have dual membership, that perhaps a form of assoicate membership that explicitly names the the kind of commitment these people are making would be appropriate.
Having said this, I personally, have little problem in "dual membership" in principle. I would want these memberships to be taken very seriously. If you go with this concept, I would want to make clear what your expectations of them are.
Hi Trena, our congregation's program is also a few years old. It has been working well so far. We hope to get more involved in using this ministry in our neighbourhood. I can put you in contact with the person who administers the program for us. Let me know... Neil
We have been robbed twice. Once just the car was broken into and some electronics were stolen. The other time a person entered our home when we were deep asleep walked past our bedroom, took some electronics and the keys to our car. The car was stolen and found a few days later. We were not harmed. It is an odd feeling.
I noticed few aspects of our journey through that moment. First, I believe that what it revealed was our persistent vulnerability. Our response was not to make ourselves less vulnerable (get more security features in our home), but to recognize that we had two fundamental values: a) that to live in community with neighbours means we must be vulnerable. We can not say I trust you and than create secure walls. I want my neighbourhood to be a safe place because we have mutual care for each other. How this works can be different in different neighbourhoods, but being a neighbour does mean being vulnerable. b) that my security ultimately depends on the providential care of God. No wall could protect Jerusalem unless the Lord was its defender. No wall needed to protect Jerusalem when God was its protector. so part of the process was a recognition that our lives were and are in the hands of God. Second, we need to deal with our sense of attachment to our homes and things. Trust me I enjoy my home and am grateful for many things. But to hold things "lightly" rather than "tightly" is an important part of our spirituality in this world. The robbery in our life was a reminder. Third, we did ask ourselves: suppose this were to happen again ... what would be a better place to keep the things that need more security. I don't leave my keys on the kitchen table anymore. A little bit more control.
It seems to me that most often when electronics are stolen people are looking for cash - usually for drugs, sometimes because of desperate circumstances. That may mean that one response is to notice that there is a need in the neighbourhood that need addressing. It is not just security. It may be a place for youth to go and be mentored. It may be helping to develop jobs for people in the neighbourhood. I don't know. I do know that it can't be helpful for the neighbourhood if we go behind our secure walls. Taking back the public space and developing neighbourhoods requires engagement not retreat. Maybe part of the healing process is to recognize the need and engage in ministry.
The lack of response says much. The models we celebrate are really quite few. I commend you for the teaching you have done.
Just recently I was reading about how in our culture many seem to think that theology is usually about the distinctives of a tradition. Entering more deeply into theology is a sure way of highlighting what is divisive. So many shy away from theology, and holding onto those things we have in common with all- which usually means simple statements of faith and a limited vision of salvation. I can understand why. WE have had some very divisive battles over the years. We have friends who belong to other traditions who are wonderful Christians. WE are afraid that entering into theology is to create brokenness.
so it seems to me we need a culture change that imagines theology as deepening our love for God, as a way of discernment, as a way of seeing more clearly the wonder of God's life and way in our life. We need to imagine theology as a way of living more creatively and wonderfully as servants to the Lord.
Culture change is difficult. But I have noticed some articles, books and practices that suggest that maybe interest in theology will increase.
Posted in: Pastoral Care, Homosexuality and the Elder
Glad to elaborate.
First, let me assume that you agree with the position of Synod ’73. Synod ’73 said that there was a difference between feelings of sexual attraction to the same sex and engaging in sexual practices with the same sex. That difference is important. If a person has feelings of same sex attraction, that would not mean a need to repent or be a problem to be solved. In Synod ’73 a person with such feelings was urged to live a celibate life seeking Christlikeness and kingdom service. Under this vision it is important to observe that there is nothing to condemn. Consequently, there needs to be a path for this person to live a holy life within the context of the church.
Second, pastorally consider the young person who happens to be struggling with issues of sexual identity or already knows that he is gay or she lesbian. It is important that this person is not condemned because of their sexual identity. Too often the language we use is not careful enough or clear enough and what comes through is that this child whom we are urged to lead into Christlikeness is condemned for their sexual orientation. We try to solve the problem (being gay) and place an unnecessary burden on them to change what they cannot change. All this while they have done no wrong.
Third, being gay is a way of being in this world. I do not mean by that being gay involves certain sexual practice. Any person can be celibate. What I mean is that by birth and experience every person has a certain way of seeing and being in relationship to others. That is a gift in the life of the church. Even a person’s sexual orientation is part of that way of seeing and being. It is not despite a person’s orientation but in their orientation that a person serves and relates. Our brothers and sisters who are gay need to know that we will not suppress of deny their unique perspectives and gifts for service. We need to see them as God’s gifts to the church. There is a healthy way to be person who is gay and who is Christian to be involved in the church’s life.
Fourth, it is important to understand that many do not agree with report ’73. Calling a person to repentance who does not believe that what they are doing anything wrong is a hard sell. At that point we need to do more than point a person to Synod ’73. That more will mean a willingness to submit to Scripture together and seek to understand it together. That in itself is a journey of caring. If we have confidence in Scripture and believe that the Spirit will lead in truth, we should not be afraid of this discussion.
Fiifth, when I speak about a path for the holy life, I am very concerned that all too often we have failed to have wonderful models of being Christian who are not “married with kids”. We imitate people we admire. We always ought to imitate Christ. We also imitate others (Paul even said to his readers ‘imitate me’). So who will the fifteen year old gay person admire? What path does he or she see ahead of them? I am looking for such models because just as I like to point young women to a woman who demonstrates Christian leadership, just as I like to encourage a native person to have models for living a faithful life with Christ that honours their heritage, I would like to show a young gay person a wonderful model of faithful and honest Christian life that acknowledges his or her sexual identity.
Sixth, there is always a time to call people to repentance. In a pastoral context this is seldom the first word. I would suggest that there are many times the first call to repentance needs to go to the bullies who have harmed the ones we love with hurtful words. There are also times when we need to repent for the way we have shamed sinners (like leaders in John 8). There are many other sins (financial and gossip) where we have been too silent though the sins were very obvious. I would always prefer to start with an authentic pastoral relationship in which another person knows I will be faithful with him or her as we walk together in Christ. Lets start with this generous spirit.
Thanks for your engagement…
Neil
Posted in: Pastoral Care, Homosexuality and the Elder
Back from Vacation so now comes a belated reply. I don't make excuses but I do want to understand and be fair. I hope I accept people as created and loved by God... loved enough so that Jesus would die for them. And I trust that all of us want to have the same attitude as Jesus did with "sinners and taxcollectors" - even when they are Pharisees. And so the question here is one of pastoral approach and attitude.
Two distinctions need to be made.
First, we need to remember the distinction that Synod made in '73. Having a same sex attration is not same as engaging in same sex practice. We can same the same about hetrosexuals: having an attraction to the opposite sex is not the same as engaging in hetrosexual sex. It is an important disticntion that we need to keep in mind in our language.
Second, we need to be careful not to assign every sexual feeling to lust. Just because our feelings can lead us astray does not mean that they always motivate us to sinful behaviour. Too often in our conversations about sexual identity our condemations of same sex attraction consign those who have such feelings to the judgments of God even when they have been faithful to God in their lives. Too often we have said to teeenagers that sexual desire is bad. I beg too differ. I hope that all of us can have sexual feelings and remain faithful to God. Yes, we all have sinful desires in our heart. But I would be careful about making all desires sinful desires. We have good and holy desires and feelings. Discerning and dealing with our desires will always be part of our walk with our God.
Finally, fact is every sunday we use the gifts of people who deny their sin and justify their sins. It happens with enviromental sins, greed, gossip and many other activities that undemine the well-being of community. Of course we seek repentance and renewal. But it does not always happen in our time. And yes, there always comes a time when some form of discipline and boundaries need to be used... but usually we do not act in haste.
Neil
Posted in: I Don’t Believe in “Waiting Till Marriage”: A Brief Reflection on Sexuality and Spirituality
Thanks for participating in the conversation.
I tend to make a few points when I teach about sexuality:
1. There is a distinction between sex and sexuality. The bible says little about sex. It is not a how to manual. I think the assumption of Scripture is that the biology of sex is either well known to the hearers or taught culturally in one way or another. Sexuality involves more than biology of sex, it is about how we relate as males and females.
2. The bible does give us some clear instructions as to what is forbidden. That is, it establishes some boundaries, for instance, no adultery and no incest. These are helpful in defining when we cross a boundary. The boundary is helpful in two ways.
a. Boundaries define us as persons. By saying NO to a sexual activity, we define ourselves in terms of our values and in terms of our personhood. For young girls this is particularly important. They are not extensions of / or objects of male sexuality. They are individuals who need to be valued for who they are, what they value and how they feel. This requires the ability to say NO.
b. Boundaries tell us when we are straying from a good path. There is a good path. There is a path of destruction. Our feelings and our present desires are not the way to judge right and wrong. The No of God ought to lead us in discerning the better path.
3. Much of what the bible teaches that helps us as sexual beings is about relationships. Relationships are central to our experience as sexual beings. Here are a few important biblical statements that help us:
a. The fruit of the spirit is … faithful. Faithfulness is a quality of the spiritual life. Now apply this to sexuality and sexual relationships. (consider proverbs on love and faithfulness)
b. “think not only of your own interests but the interests of others” (phil 2): so how does “thinking about another’s interests help in our sexual experience in marriage?
c. Forgive as you have been forgiven. This is about confession and forgiveness. This is about humility. This is about living in the deep recognition that what we receive is always a gift. For a husband and wife this means that each needs to see the other as gift.
4. These conversations mean that our spiritual lives have much to say about our relationships and the goodness of our sexual lives as male and female. Our vision of what is good and our walk with God ought to shape our sexuality. Our call is to be “like Christ” (point three) which means are eyes for Christ are central to our relationships as sexual beings.
5. Part of the whole story means dealing with desire. In our grade 7-12 teaching session, I used the book Hooked mentioned in the article because it gives us a good understanding of how sexual desire works biologically and how fulfilled that desire can lead us astray from real happiness in our love relationships. Much of Scripture deals invites us to shape our desires(to form them and to discipline them) by the Word of God. Proverbs repeatedly calls people to not follow their immediate desires because they are not the way of wisdom. There are fools and there are the wise. Romans 8 speaks of not following the desires of the flesh but to desire the desires of the Spirit.
6. To support a godly way in our sexual experience requires a supportive community. Because our sexuality is relational, the fact is that we live it in community. The social rules of the community play a huge part in how we live our sexuality. Boundaries are hard to maintain if no one else supports them. So being in a supportive community (hopefully the church is one, but is not always so) is vital to walking together in Christ as sexual beings.
Finally, I don’t know of material that covers all that. Maybe someone ought to write some material. Meantime, read and share. It all helps. And remember when it comes from you – as teacher, mentor and fellow sexual being- the youth listen with respect.
Posted in: How can we revitalize a church that is struggling financially and physically?
Hi Ted, thanks for your question. I think it would help to give a little more detail about your story. I am sure others are experiencing or have experienced something similar and would love to give you encouragement. Let us know more. Neil
Posted in: How can we revitalize a church that is struggling financially and physically?
Hi Ted, here are some suggestions:
First, if there is dirty laundry to deal with, it is usually a good idea to engage in some process to deal with these matters. Often times a good interim pastor can serve very well. A good interim will not only deal with past issues, they are often skilled in bringing some focus and positive sense of self-identity to the congregation.
Second, it sound like some transitions are happening in congregational life. One of the best things that especially senior members can do is to bless and encourage those who are seeking to lead the congregation. That sometimes takes some teaching. It does not help to complain about the change in culture or change in the experience of church life. The evening service is changing. Complaining about it won't help. Having 35 there means you have 35 people who can receive a blessing of church ministry. Do what blesses them. It is only when they speak with joy about their experience that others might say it is a good idea to join. The culture does not support organ music. We might be disappointed, frustrated by this change. But so it is. So I would think that our children will have another language of worship which is more of their native "musical" tongue. Transitions happen. There is a process that we can engage in that recognizes these changes and how the church can deepen the faith and life of the congregation along the way. Sometimes we call it visioning.
Third, you have ministries that are working. Celebrate them. Build on them.
Fourth, smaller congregations can not be what a large congregation is. But smaller congregations can do what is most needed: build community and love deeply. Most people - when they get out of themselves and their needs - discover that community and love is more important than "services to meet my needs". Because you are able to be "a people of God" in your community, there is every opportunity to thrive in the life of ministry and grace. A process like a vision process or "Holy Conversations"(Rundle & Mann) can be helpful in discerning your way with Christ.
Fifth, people don't leave when they are engaged with some hopefulness. The more quickly some process is adopted, the more people that can be involved, the more the council opens itself up to change, the more likely those considering leaving will become open to staying. They are asking Why Stay? Guilt is not an adequate reason. A new future is.
Sixth, finances trail the rest.
Because of the number of issues before you, it will take time. But regardless of the time it might take, adopting a process that will raise and engage the issues is critical. Council should engage some person to lead them through it. In interim pastor with such skills, or another person more like a consultant can go along way.
these are some things that have come to mind over the past week. I sure others have had some thoughts. Lets share.
Neil
Posted in: How Do You Conduct an Effective and Useful Home Visit?
I am always conscious of the tensions that are present in these comments. here are some I see:
1. the number of elders we need to visit regularly vs the number of people actually available to do the work.
2. visits as spiritual care vs visits as part of church management (how are we doing in our programs? do you have questions about the church?)
3. The time we need to do the work vs the time we actually have (8 evenings a month vs 3 evenings a month)
4. the blessing of the visits vs the difficulty in making arrangements with people who do not make it a priority. (there is a disconnect)
5. the focus on visits vs the many other activities that are required.
6. the present size of the elder's list (20-25) and the size of the list we could be effective with (10). I like the number 10 - comes from Moses.
I am sure I don't have answers to these tensions, but maybe in order to get beyond these tensions (and the accompanying failures), we need to think hard about the way we do elders' work. What is the centre of our call? How do we prioritize? Maybe we need to restructure the eldership and build more flexibility in the church order.
Posted in: Is network marketing an appropriate business for an Elder to engage in?
There are two issues that are appropriate for discussion:
First, is the business itself ethical? I don't know much about the business. Network marketing does not seem to me to be unethical. However, the particular business model maybe. WE could ask questions about whether or not the business is marketing to vulnerable persons? or whether or not the products are "good"? or whether it treats its workers justly (pay, working conditions, etc.).
Second, it may be that the person's business can create some conflicts of interest in the life of the church. Because of the ministry demands require certain kinds of relationships, the business relationships may jeopardize ministry. So it seems to me that it is worthwhile asking if the business relationships will undermine the leadership and pastoral relationships. Just as family relationships create conflicts, so too business relationships create conflicts.
I hope this provides some direction...
Neil
Posted in: How do you deal with a church member who wishes to marry a non-believer?
Hi Al,
seems like there are few good suggestions to help you. I suppose in part this is because so many details are missing. Generalized solutions to particular problems will often fail to deal with nuance. I usually divide the issues, First there is the question: what is happening in the life of this person? This is where the sketchy information makes it difficult to make judgments. It is clear that the strength of love is a powerful movement in the persons life. But I wonder What is happening to a person's faith? I try to listen carefully to the language. So many times there are subtle suggestions that Christianity is just another form of spirituality.or perhaps there is a suggestion that the Scriptural words about being "unequally yoked" is not applicable in this situation. I also wonder how the person's future spouse deals with faith... supportive of the faith commitment? Antagonistic? There is so much left unsaid that addressing the concerns is difficult.
The second question involves the integrity of the church's voice. If a person disobeys the voice of God but continues in ministry does this not mean that the church's voice is compromised? Simple answer: yes. But how do we deal with this? Two points to make: First, there are times when a person needs to be withdrawn from a certain ministry. For instance if a person is a mentor to youth the integrity of the church's ministry maybe undermined. This is when the involvement of a person is restricted in a certain area. However, there are other activities for which this is not the case. Council needs to make a judgment. Second, how we approach this is another part of integrity. If we fail to show the compassion and love of Christ, we also fail the integrity test.
When I hear this kind of a conversation I always wonder to myself: to whom are my eyes directed? so many times out of fear or out of dysfunction in the system our eyes are directed to "those who might say ..." or "to those who might conclude..." . I would rather that our eyes get directed toward Christ and how we might represent the saving power of Christ in the life of our community.
just a few thoughts
Neil
Posted in: Can churches offer a dual membership option (like dual citizenship) to their snow birds?
Good Question. This is yet another example of how our lifestyle in North America was never contemplated by the framers of the church order. I appreciate that they wish to have committed relationships and that this is formalized. I am less certain about what this means for them. What responsibilities do they wish to embrace? What connection do they have when they are "down south"? What expectations do they have of the church and the church of them? Does their lifestyle effect the quality and meaningfulness of their realtionship to the congregation?
I have often found that those who are year round members find the quality of the relationship with part-time members dimishing over time. While they appreciate the desire, after a while distance and limited communication leaves the "part time" members out of the loop.
Membership does require certain commitments to the life of the congregation. The congregation has a right to know what to expect from these part time members. I would suggest that rather than have dual membership, that perhaps a form of assoicate membership that explicitly names the the kind of commitment these people are making would be appropriate.
Having said this, I personally, have little problem in "dual membership" in principle. I would want these memberships to be taken very seriously. If you go with this concept, I would want to make clear what your expectations of them are.
Neil
Posted in: What Advice Can You Offer a Church New to Stephen Ministry?
Hi Trena, our congregation's program is also a few years old. It has been working well so far. We hope to get more involved in using this ministry in our neighbourhood. I can put you in contact with the person who administers the program for us. Let me know... Neil
Posted in: Pastoral Care for Robbery Victims
We have been robbed twice. Once just the car was broken into and some electronics were stolen. The other time a person entered our home when we were deep asleep walked past our bedroom, took some electronics and the keys to our car. The car was stolen and found a few days later. We were not harmed. It is an odd feeling.
I noticed few aspects of our journey through that moment. First, I believe that what it revealed was our persistent vulnerability. Our response was not to make ourselves less vulnerable (get more security features in our home), but to recognize that we had two fundamental values: a) that to live in community with neighbours means we must be vulnerable. We can not say I trust you and than create secure walls. I want my neighbourhood to be a safe place because we have mutual care for each other. How this works can be different in different neighbourhoods, but being a neighbour does mean being vulnerable. b) that my security ultimately depends on the providential care of God. No wall could protect Jerusalem unless the Lord was its defender. No wall needed to protect Jerusalem when God was its protector. so part of the process was a recognition that our lives were and are in the hands of God. Second, we need to deal with our sense of attachment to our homes and things. Trust me I enjoy my home and am grateful for many things. But to hold things "lightly" rather than "tightly" is an important part of our spirituality in this world. The robbery in our life was a reminder. Third, we did ask ourselves: suppose this were to happen again ... what would be a better place to keep the things that need more security. I don't leave my keys on the kitchen table anymore. A little bit more control.
It seems to me that most often when electronics are stolen people are looking for cash - usually for drugs, sometimes because of desperate circumstances. That may mean that one response is to notice that there is a need in the neighbourhood that need addressing. It is not just security. It may be a place for youth to go and be mentored. It may be helping to develop jobs for people in the neighbourhood. I don't know. I do know that it can't be helpful for the neighbourhood if we go behind our secure walls. Taking back the public space and developing neighbourhoods requires engagement not retreat. Maybe part of the healing process is to recognize the need and engage in ministry.
I would love to hear from others.
Neil
Posted in: Biblical and Theological Literacy
The lack of response says much. The models we celebrate are really quite few. I commend you for the teaching you have done.
Just recently I was reading about how in our culture many seem to think that theology is usually about the distinctives of a tradition. Entering more deeply into theology is a sure way of highlighting what is divisive. So many shy away from theology, and holding onto those things we have in common with all- which usually means simple statements of faith and a limited vision of salvation. I can understand why. WE have had some very divisive battles over the years. We have friends who belong to other traditions who are wonderful Christians. WE are afraid that entering into theology is to create brokenness.
so it seems to me we need a culture change that imagines theology as deepening our love for God, as a way of discernment, as a way of seeing more clearly the wonder of God's life and way in our life. We need to imagine theology as a way of living more creatively and wonderfully as servants to the Lord.
Culture change is difficult. But I have noticed some articles, books and practices that suggest that maybe interest in theology will increase.
Keep at it. Neil