Thank-you for posting this Bonnie. Tamar's story has always made me so angry. I used to think that God thought it was okay that she was raped because why else would He put it in the Bible. I thought the Bible gave us the way to live. . . I know better now. I understand that God hated what was done to Tamar as He hates all evil done to all of us. The questions of why He allows it etc. still come and go. This morning as I got ready for work, I was just planning to glance at my email when I saw this post. I was immediately triggered by the subject but had to open it to see what you wrote. I have tension in my body. I feel a bit scattered. I want to cry but there is no time. I am asking God to help me, walk with me through one more trigger. I use my grounding techniques, I start to block the thoughts and distance . . . I am still thankful you wrote it. Our church needs to talk about these hard things. We need to know the affects of rape and how long these affects last. But I wonder, does it make a difference? Does anyone read this kind of post? Does change ever come in response to sexual assaults survivors, in our churches? Hardly anyone ever responds to these posts. Which, as far as our church goes, makes me feel more alone in it than ever. I am thankful for a husband and children and friends who truly care. Peace to you Bonnie Thank-you for sharing
Thank-you for this article Bonnie. Thank-you for your transparency. Your words about what the church can be and could do are true.... I pray that you have been and will make good connections with people in your new location and new church. I pray you will be able to continue in meaningful work in the future. I pray for peace for you
Interesting. I am rather surprised you are not just saying that the best thing is to cancel all services and for people to stay at home where possible. It is the best thing to do for your own family and for all people. It is the number one preventative measure that works. If you wait until the virus is in your community to cancel it is too late.
Thank-you for this article. It contains much helpful information. I do believe that offenders can be part of congregations with good boundaries and accountability such as mentioned. This would have to be a very long term plan with regular reviews and accountability of the accountability people to make sure it continues well. One thing not discussed here is offenders and victims attending the same congregation. I do not think the offender should be allowed to be in the same congregation as their victim. The offender should leave. There may be exceptions to this if the victim is an adult and is willing -not coerced- or guilted- into acquiescence, and much time has passed . . .
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Nancy Boelens-Groen, What a lot of pain. I am so sorry for all you have suffered and lost. I am sorry your church let you down. I am sorry you did not have a safe place to go with your sons. Thank-you for sharing the truth that so many of us hide. May you receive comfort and peace from our Lord May your words educate others. From Jill
I am sorry for how this man assaulted you and for the way the appropriate people did not deal with it. Ths was unfair to you. Also unfair to all the others he would have assaulted. Thank-you for talking about it. It is important that people understand how one incident can impact us for many years.
There is no where in this article where it says that this pastor thought he was being humorous in his treatment of this woman. If he did think it was funny why did he whisper rather than saying it out loud so that all the people around them could enjoy a joke? Why also did he ask her not to tell anyone?
His whispered statement was crude and totally inappropriate as was the pinch. It would have been wrong wether it was a man or a woman as clergy or victim.
When the pastor was informed that he had offended and been inappropriate with this woman why did he not apologize then? Even if it is true that he did not mean to, he should have apologized and asked forgiveness, As any of us should who discover we have harmed someone.
Your comments here show how much education is still needed about sexual harassment.
Roger you have already stated that you thought this incident was meant in humor Quote: I felt a pinch on my buttocks and heard this whisper in my ear, “Why do you have your ass sticking out that way?.
I just want you to know that I read this to my husband and he was appalled and shocked that anyone would think this was funny. As an elder in our church he would not let this go as a joke. He would expect the perpetrator to be held to account and relieved of his position, at least for a time, while he was educated about inappropriate sexual behavior and power dynamics, and an accountability system was set up for him. My husband also said he believes that the majority of men he knows in our church would agree with his position.
Unless you are saying that the victim has not told the truth of what this man did to her, then whether or not we know his thoughts or the elders thoughts is irrelevant -though it would be educational. If we are talking about what is acceptable behavior from one human being to another then it has to be said that this pastor was absolutely inappropriate to this woman. It cannot be 'just a matter of difference of opinion', what this pastor did was wrong.
Roger, I do not understand why you keep harping about not knowing both sides of this story and now classifying the woman's hurt as bitterness. Really you are implying that she could be lying so she does not deserve being listened to and also that her hurt is invalid. You seem unable to acknowledge that it could be true and that she was treated wrongly. Instead you seem to blame her for letting the 'imagined' hurt last so long.
Sure it would be interesting/helpful/educational to know more about it, but that we don't does not automatically invalidate what she says.
While discounting this woman you state: "But I do believe these elders from two churches heard his perspective, and finally sided with him in judging this was not sexual assault and dismissed any charges." So while you cannot believe the woman's story is true you do believe that the elders and abuser made a good decision. What is that choice of yours based on? You say "not to make a one sided judgment" but you judge this woman and side with the elders and abuser.
I am not sure you aware that when a person is treated inappropriately, sexually, even if you do forgive the offender from your end, if they do not apologize and if no one calls them to account, one never feels comfortable with seeing that person. You feel vulnerable and exposed. Sexual misconduct affects us deeply.
I am not sure you realize that most abuse is done by people in a place of power over the victim, it is mostly hidden, it is mostly hard to prove and most people's response is disbelief. Almost everyone tends to believe a leader or elder or person with 'standing' over a 'regular person'. There is often the assumption in churches that an elder or pastor or leader is more honorable or Godly or he was placed there by God so it could not be. Check out what David did in the Old Testament to rearrange your thoughts about this.
While you won't know you are doing this, many of your comments have triggered for me the pain of other cruel responses I have heard after talking about the abuse I suffered. Your comments could prevent many from coming forward to report abuse.
( and no, I am not going to offer proof of the abuse that was done to me, here, so I know you will be free to disbelieve or invalidate anything I say.)
I know all about walking in forgiveness and grace towards abusers. It has been a long journey of hard work to come to peace and healing. Through it all I have had some good responses from church leaders and a number of bad ones. For example:
-no response and no offers of help and no mentioning again after I did ask for help. "If you had grown up in our congregation this abuse would not have happened." "It is in the past, just let it go" "Forgive and forget" "You are a new person now -Quoting 2 Cor. 5:17 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.' therefore your past should not affect your new life in Christ" "God never gives you more than you can bare" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Helpful responses always began with: "I am sorry this was done to you" "I do not know how to help you but I will try to find out" and then they followed up .
If your daughter came to tell you she has been sexually assaulted would you show care or would you say "hang on a minute, let me talk to the abuser and see what he/she says". Then when the abuser denied it would you discount your daughters words? Would you suggest she just not fuss about it because after all, who could know what the truth was about it. If your fellow church leaders did not believe her and stood up for the abuser, what would you do? "Oh well, they are good men placed in this position, their decisions must be correct."
The good thing about your comments here, (those erased and those still public) is that they help show why our entire denomination needs education about sexual abuse in the church.
Posted in: December Safe Church Webinar: Raising Our Voices
Thanks for letting us know.
Will this be available to listen to later for those who cannot attend at the time?
Posted in: Bible Story Discussion: The Rape of Tamar
Thank-you for posting this Bonnie.
Tamar's story has always made me so angry.
I used to think that God thought it was okay that she was raped because why else would He put it in the Bible. I thought the Bible gave us the way to live. . .
I know better now. I understand that God hated what was done to Tamar as He hates all evil done to all of us. The questions of why He allows it etc. still come and go.
This morning as I got ready for work, I was just planning to glance at my email when I saw this post. I was immediately triggered by the subject but had to open it to see what you wrote. I have tension in my body. I feel a bit scattered. I want to cry but there is no time. I am asking God to help me, walk with me through one more trigger. I use my grounding techniques, I start to block the thoughts and distance . . .
I am still thankful you wrote it. Our church needs to talk about these hard things. We need to know the affects of rape and how long these affects last.
But I wonder, does it make a difference? Does anyone read this kind of post? Does change ever come in response to sexual assaults survivors, in our churches?
Hardly anyone ever responds to these posts. Which, as far as our church goes, makes me feel more alone in it than ever. I am thankful for a husband and children and friends who truly care.
Peace to you Bonnie
Thank-you for sharing
Posted in: Circles of Hope
Thanks for the referral.
This could be a really helpful group for survivors.
Posted in: August Safe Church Webinar: Boz Tchividjian
Looking forward to this.
Posted in: Help in the Midst of Trauma
Thank-you for this article Bonnie.
Thank-you for your transparency.
Your words about what the church can be and could do are true....
I pray that you have been and will make good connections with people in your new location and new church.
I pray you will be able to continue in meaningful work in the future.
I pray for peace for you
Posted in: COVID-19 And Your Congregation
Interesting.
I am rather surprised you are not just saying that the best thing is to cancel all services and for people to stay at home where possible.
It is the best thing to do for your own family and for all people.
It is the number one preventative measure that works.
If you wait until the virus is in your community to cancel it is too late.
Posted in: Updates From Safe Church Coordinators: Classis Chatham
Thank-you for this article. It contains much helpful information.
I do believe that offenders can be part of congregations with good boundaries and accountability such as mentioned. This would have to be a very long term plan with regular reviews and accountability of the accountability people to make sure it continues well.
One thing not discussed here is offenders and victims attending the same congregation. I do not think the offender should be allowed to be in the same congregation as their victim. The offender should leave. There may be exceptions to this if the victim is an adult and is willing -not coerced- or guilted- into acquiescence, and much time has passed . . .
Posted in: S.O.S. Silence Hides Violence, Violence Destroys Lives
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Nancy Boelens-Groen,
What a lot of pain. I am so sorry for all you have suffered and lost.
I am sorry your church let you down.
I am sorry you did not have a safe place to go with your sons.
Thank-you for sharing the truth that so many of us hide.
May you receive comfort and peace from our Lord
May your words educate others.
From Jill
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
I am sorry for how this man assaulted you and for the way the appropriate people did not deal with it.
Ths was unfair to you.
Also unfair to all the others he would have assaulted.
Thank-you for talking about it.
It is important that people understand how one incident can impact us for many years.
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
There is no where in this article where it says that this pastor thought he was being humorous in his treatment of this woman. If he did think it was funny why did he whisper rather than saying it out loud so that all the people around them could enjoy a joke? Why also did he ask her not to tell anyone?
His whispered statement was crude and totally inappropriate as was the pinch. It would have been wrong wether it was a man or a woman as clergy or victim.
When the pastor was informed that he had offended and been inappropriate with this woman why did he not apologize then? Even if it is true that he did not mean to, he should have apologized and asked forgiveness, As any of us should who discover we have harmed someone.
Your comments here show how much education is still needed about sexual harassment.
.
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Roger you have already stated that you thought this incident was meant in humor
Quote: I felt a pinch on my buttocks and heard this whisper in my ear, “Why do you have your ass sticking out that way?.
I just want you to know that I read this to my husband and he was appalled and shocked that anyone would think this was funny. As an elder in our church he would not let this go as a joke. He would expect the perpetrator to be held to account and relieved of his position, at least for a time, while he was educated about inappropriate sexual behavior and power dynamics, and an accountability system was set up for him. My husband also said he believes that the majority of men he knows in our church would agree with his position.
Unless you are saying that the victim has not told the truth of what this man did to her, then whether or not we know his thoughts or the elders thoughts is irrelevant -though it would be educational.
If we are talking about what is acceptable behavior from one human being to another then it has to be said that this pastor was absolutely inappropriate to this woman.
It cannot be 'just a matter of difference of opinion', what this pastor did was wrong.
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Roger,
I do not understand why you keep harping about not knowing both sides of this story and now classifying the woman's hurt as bitterness. Really you are implying that she could be lying so she does not deserve being listened to and also that her hurt is invalid.
You seem unable to acknowledge that it could be true and that she was treated wrongly.
Instead you seem to blame her for letting the 'imagined' hurt last so long.
Sure it would be interesting/helpful/educational to know more about it, but that we don't does not automatically invalidate what she says.
While discounting this woman you state: "But I do believe these elders from two churches heard his perspective, and finally sided with him in judging this was not sexual assault and dismissed any charges." So while you cannot believe the woman's story is true you do believe that the elders and abuser made a good decision. What is that choice of yours based on? You say "not to make a one sided judgment" but you judge this woman and side with the elders and abuser.
I am not sure you aware that when a person is treated inappropriately, sexually, even if you do forgive the offender from your end, if they do not apologize and if no one calls them to account, one never feels comfortable with seeing that person. You feel vulnerable and exposed. Sexual misconduct affects us deeply.
I am not sure you realize that most abuse is done by people in a place of power over the victim, it is mostly hidden, it is mostly hard to prove and most people's response is disbelief. Almost everyone tends to believe a leader or elder or person with 'standing' over a 'regular person'. There is often the assumption in churches that an elder or pastor or leader is more honorable or Godly or he was placed there by God so it could not be. Check out what David did in the Old Testament to rearrange your thoughts about this.
While you won't know you are doing this, many of your comments have triggered for me the pain of other cruel responses I have heard after talking about the abuse I suffered. Your comments could prevent many from coming forward to report abuse.
( and no, I am not going to offer proof of the abuse that was done to me, here, so I know you will be free to disbelieve or invalidate anything I say.)
I know all about walking in forgiveness and grace towards abusers. It has been a long journey of hard work to come to peace and healing. Through it all I have had some good responses from church leaders and a number of bad ones. For example:
-no response and no offers of help and no mentioning again after I did ask for help.
"If you had grown up in our congregation this abuse would not have happened."
"It is in the past, just let it go"
"Forgive and forget"
"You are a new person now -Quoting 2 Cor. 5:17 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.' therefore your past should not affect your new life in Christ"
"God never gives you more than you can bare" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Helpful responses always began with:
"I am sorry this was done to you"
"I do not know how to help you but I will try to find out" and then they followed up .
If your daughter came to tell you she has been sexually assaulted would you show care or would you say "hang on a minute, let me talk to the abuser and see what he/she says". Then when the abuser denied it would you discount your daughters words? Would you suggest she just not fuss about it because after all, who could know what the truth was about it. If your fellow church leaders did not believe her and stood up for the abuser, what would you do? "Oh well, they are good men placed in this position, their decisions must be correct."
The good thing about your comments here, (those erased and those still public) is that they help show why our entire denomination needs education about sexual abuse in the church.