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In my perception, it is ironic, Edwin, that on the one hand, in your world, Adam never existed, yet on the other hand, God still spoke.  As your own arbiter of what to accept and what not to accept in scripture, it is difficult to carry on a rational discussion.  By your standards it would be as easy for me to deny that God spoke at all.  Especially that he spoke creation into existence, which you seem to deny anyway.  (or are you now suggesting a punctuated equilibrium?  or God of the gaps?).

It sometimes seems that the strongest believers in raw evolution theory are those who do the least examination of the empirical  difficulties with it.

Scientists who study origins without considering God' s word, and His role, just might be the same as a mechanic trying to understand an engine without considering the fuel that makes it meaningful  Just because they are studying God's world, does not mean they are listening to God, anymore than a teenager riding a God-created horse down a God-created trail to a God-created stream is listening to God.  Although scripture does say that even those who have not heard of Christ are still without excuse before God, because they can see God's hand in the world around them, if their hearts are open.

ty·pol·o·gy....noun  1.  the doctrine or study of types or prefigurative symbols, especially in scriptural literature.
2.   a systematic classification or study of types.
3.  symbolism.

If Adam was not historical, then how could you have a typology of a one man who brought sin into the world?  Wouldn't your typology simply be untrue... a lie... a falsehood?   Did a different one man bring sin into the world?   what man?  how would we know?   Typology only works if there is truth in it.   If no lambs were ever sacrificed, could they still be a typology of Christ?   If Moses never led the people out of Egypt, could he still be a type of Christ?  If David was never king, how could he be a type of Christ (never mind an ancestor of Christ).  If Abraham never existed, then how could there be an Israel? 

If Adam and Eve never existed, then they never sinned.  Then God never said to them anything at all.  Then they never disobeyed God.   How do we know that anyone ever disobeyed God?  Cain then was not the son of Adam, and no promise was ever made to Eve and Adam about crushing the serpent's head.  No prophecy of Christ at that time.

The more I think about this, the more I realize how susceptible we become to the simple phrase:   "did God really say?"

The tastiness of the forbidden fruit was science/nature.  To say that this tastiness  revealed God's word in the fruit is what Satan wants us to believe.   
 

Edwin, thanks for your response.

 Yes, we have some things in common, ie., scriptural authority, God creating the universe.   However, the extent of scriptural authority, the way we understand scripture, and the way God created the universe and people is important also.   It is interesting that you as a non-scientist, and me as one who has a B.A. in philosophy and English, as well as a B.Sc. in Agricultural science, should have somewhat opposing perspectives on the validity of evolutionary science, as well as on how to understand literature (the Bible).

Is it important to some degree to have a fall-back position that if evolution were incontrovertibly true in every aspect (mud to man, goo-to-you, microbes to microbiologist) then how would scripture be still relevant.  Is that what you are proposing?  An insurance policy?

Back to your comments.  Yes you are convinced of evolutionary theory in its totality, in spite of your stated lack of expertise;  and I am convinced there is a lack of evidence for  macro evolution, even though possibly the actual material of the universe might possibly be older than 10,000 yrs.   Although,  I think our minds cannot totally wrap around the possibility of time change, accelerated or decelerating expansion of the universe, etc.   Cases of radio carbon dating not able to deal with recent volcano formation accurately remains unexplained.  Cases of C14 material imbedded in much older(supposed) rock, remains unexplained.   Macro evolution as far as I can tell is based on speculation, on the basis of faith in the theory, on only one interpretation, and not on actual fossil evidence.    Documented fraud and error has been perpetrated by the evolutionary theory both in scientific papers and in classroom textbooks, particularly for the more well known assumptions of evolutionary theory, and particularly when it comes to theorizing on descent or evolution of humans.

But, you remain convinced that evolutionary theory is inviolable, so lets consider the typology problem.  You suggest that even if Adam did not exist,  people still sinned against God.  However, you have not provided a mechanism for their sin.  Why have they sinned?   Why are they disobedient?   Evolution theory suggests that there is no moral or ethical element in man’s development.  Evolution is a process of death, competition, destruction, elimination of the less able, of survival and selection of species and individuals.  Those are the morals of evolution.   Why would God counter his own creation process through his commands to people.  Or, why would God use a creation process so different from His own stated ideals for holiness, purity, kindness?   Even Cain’s murder of Abel would merely be a natural evolutionary act.

If Eden is merely part of the typology, how does it relate?   How could Eden then be anything other than the competitive, destructive, death dealing  evolutionary process?   What is the relevance in the typology of the fall into sin creating death?   Doesn’t that make the typology entirely absurd?   As a mere typology without substance, it would be seen to be absurd in the context of the evolutionary theory.  The question would be asked:  repent from what?  From my evolutionary instincts and process?

The difference between Adam, and Christian in “Pilgrim’s Progress” is that “Christian” is a reflection of the redeemed man (not Everyman), not the presumed ancestor or progenitor of everyman’s sinful nature.    Furthermore, if Adam did not exist, and if our sinful nature is merely our evolutionary process in action, then the validity of Pilgrim’s Progress will also be questioned.   The significance of the creation story perhaps lies as much in whether God really did create everything good or not, or what God’s definition of “good” really is.  Or in fact, whether God really spoke to man at all, or whether man created God rather than God creating man.

I find your identification of “new” and “old” somewhat limited, or perhaps lacking in depth.   We often say “new” in generic comprehensive terms without identifying what is old and what is new.  Ecclesiastes says there is nothing new under the sun.   Yet it seems new to us.   Hebrews 8-10 talks about the old and new covenenant but concentrates specifically on temple, worship, and sacrifices in particular.  But it maintains that in understanding this new covenant, he who continues to sin places himself outside of this new covenant, which sounds suspiciously like the old covenant, doesn’t it.   In other words, the old and the new covenant are different, yet inseparable.

So the Christians during the reformation brought new insights which were actually a return to old insights and precepts.   Having just read the first nine chapters or books of Augustine’s confessions, it became obvious to all of us in this study group, that Augustine’s experiences of 300 AD were very similar to our own in 2014.  New information does lead to new insights, true, but we should be very cautious about generalizations which are often untrue in specific cases.

On the science side, I would suggest that you not idolize the scientific community.   They are human beings like everyone else, like mechanics, doctors, engineers.   They do a lot of good stuff, but they make mistakes.   Doctors bleeding people in order to cure illness.  Lacking an understanding of bacteria, viruses.   Slowly finding ways to treat AIDS but not cure it.  Not yet anyway.

Scientists can work with things they can experiment with.   But going back in time?  Not so simple.   Lots of assumptions.   They may well find they were wrong on several significant points.  I am finding too many problems with their assumptions about layering of sediment, placement of fossils, age of volcanic rocks, undocumented leaps of evolutionary progress.

I am only 60 years old, so I have not yet seen everything.   One thing I have seen is that there are more scientific problems with evolution today than there were in the past.   Another thing I have also seen is that for many, evolution is   a religion or faith, held to most strongly by those who have the least information on it.   So that makes me doubly cautious, something like Augustine’s eventual suspicion of the Manichees who lacked knowledge of the basics.

God will lead and teach us, but not all will be willing to accept His teaching until forced to at the last day.  Evolution is the primary present day tool to lead us philosophically and morally away from God.   On its own, it justifies our  unlimited pursuit of money, superiority, material possessions, power, aggressive wars, lack of care for the poor.   It provides a rationale for abortion and euthanasia.  It supports the idea of a god as a blind watchmaker, if he exists.   If evolution can convince us to deny that God created everything good, and that Adam and Eve (man) were not originally responsible for sin, then Satan will be happy when people begin to think that really god is to blame for sin, not us, and that it is just and right that Jesus as god died for his own sin, and is absurd that he could pay for ours.

I am not quite so pessimistic as I sometimes sound,  so I trust God will use all of this for his honor and glory.   But we must not lose sight of the antithesis, of the battleground for the souls of men.  People of the church have too blithely assumed that Satan is no longer active, and that our sinful nature is barely relevant.   This sinful nature inclines human beings to look for an origin and solution outside of God.  This is the present day struggle, which is not a new struggle.     Jesus warned about all those who came to God in the last day saying:  “Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophecy in your name, didn’t we cast out demons, didn’t we heal the sick” and God says to them, get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”   “Only the one who does the will of the Father in heaven will enter”.  This warning is always in my mind.

John

It seems as though, we have a “comment war” between two people, Ed and John.  And I doubt that the two of you will ever reach agreement.  It seems as though you both have different starting points that will not allow your paths to cross in a significant way, or come to the same conclusions.  Ed is asking a “what if” question in his article, and John won’t allow for any “what ifs.”  

I’ll also ask a “what if” question.  What if the Bible is not the inspired word of God, as you both seem to propose.  The opening chapters of Genesis are antiquated in their origin, like many of the other ancient religious writings of ancient history.  They speak of realities that make no sense to the modern mind.  These chapters speak of a pseudo reality that fits an antiquated mentality that didn’t have the benefit of developed thought.  Religions of that time spoke of the gods existing on a different plane (pseudo) but yet who interacted with humanity on earth.  There were good gods and evil gods.  There were national gods and the false gods of other nations.  Not unlike these other ancient religions, Judaism and Christianity have a good God and a demigod, Satan, the archenemy of God.  The Bible records fanciful stories of God’s creation in six literal days, by which each day God brought about another aspect of the then known world.  It tells of God stepping down from his pseudo reality (heaven) and instructing humans (Adam and Eve), but also of the pseudo demigod doing the same in the form of a talking serpent and giving a conflicting message than God’s. The fanciful stories (the creation and fall of Adam and Eve, the tower of Babel, Noah’s arc, Cain and Abel, etc.) abound in the early chapters of the Bible, as well as throughout.  These fanciful stories had been retold over thousands of years before finally being put down in written word.  And now you, John, and many other Christians, want to hang on to these stories as though they are solid fact.

Are scientists today to assume that these fanciful stories of creation should become the bedrock of science and scientific endeavor?  Are psychology and human relationships to be built upon stories of Adam and Eve’s fall and redemption?  These stories are acknowledged as true and reliable by you John (and also I think, you, Edwin) by faith alone.  It is the accepting as true that which does not make, even, common sense.  But for you, the Bible is the God breathed word of God and is absolutely reliable and truthful, unfailing in telling us the realities of life.  

How is the Bible different from the Koran and the book of Mormon or the Hindu writings which also claim to be the true inspired word of God?  They say their own writings are absolutely true and the Bible is a false revelation of God, just as we say the same about them.  We say their stories are fanciful and therefore untrue, but the Bible’s stories are different.  Maybe all formalized religions are a weak attempt to further explain the God that is clearly revealed in his creation of the world.  And each religion puts its own spin on their attempts to reveal God who has already revealed himself in the creation.  I agree with Edwin, that the creation speaks the truth of God.  But I disagree that God needs further help to clarify his reality and his relationship to human kind.

Your original article, Edwin, hits the nail on the head.  Something is going to have to give with Christianity or it will become the ridicule of future generations.  Five hundred years from now, maybe less, Christianity will make little sense, especially seeing as it is based on fanciful stories and miracles, and seeing as science will increasingly make these stories seem very foolish.  I have a feeling that you, Edwin, are afraid to step outside the pale of Christian thought, and you, John, are afraid to move at all from an historic conservative perspective of Christianity which is already losing its credibility in our society. It is, indeed, true that the teachings of the Bible have to be accepted by faith, because it has little or no concrete evidence to back it up.  That being true it doesn’t really matter what God is revealing in his creation or what science is discovering about our world. The Bible (in Christian thought) is the final authority.  Christians today are obviously trying to bend either science or Christian teaching to line up with the other.  But to me the gap is becoming larger and larger.

Hi John,   But indeed I am a real person.  And it would take very little effort on your part to verify it conclusively, to in fact shake my hand and to talk in person, and to evaluate my DNA.  It would not be so easy to verify Baal’s existence or any of the gods that Israel’s neighbors thought were real, as well as the Jews thought at various times, or even the gods of other present day religions.  And I’m not daring you to step outside of your box (or calling you a scaredy cat, as you suggest).  

But if I were to step into what you call Christian reality (as you suggest), which Christianity should it be, the one claiming the stories of a literal six day creation, God’s appearance to Adam in the garden of Eden, as well as Satan’s as a talking serpent, all of this as factual reality or the Christianity that claims this as fable?  Do I step into a Christian reality that wants me to believe that Adam was the first actual created human being, or that he was more of a mythical character, or that he was the first human being to enter into covenant with God?  Or does it make any difference? . Which Christian reality should I step into, John?  I would guess that like you, the author of Genesis (some say Moses) thought he was describing what he thought might be real and what was handed down to him in story form, as factual reality.  But recognize that all ancient stories of creation were not science based (there was no science) and had little or no connection to reality. But just because Moses thought his story of creation and Adam was real it didn’t make it any more real than the other stories that circulated back then in early and ancient recorded history.  Even Christians would argue for the foolishness of these other stories.  What makes the Christian story of creation any more reliable than the stories of other religions?  They all claim inspiration from God, just as does the Bible.  Why Christianity?

It might be one thing to argue within Christian circles as to what is real and what is not in the opening chapters of Genesis. Within the Christian box, debate makes sense to those debating.  But put the Christian in a different box that debates science and origins, and should this Christian put the story of Biblical creation on the table as his foundation for science he would be thought to be totally unrealistic.  He would probably be asked to leave science to the real scientists. The Christian might even argue that the earth was created with the appearance of age (young earth proponents) to explain away the scientific evidence for an earth that is millions of years old.

Evolution may not be scientific fact, it’s still a theory (like Biblical creation), but it is gaining a lot more credence and support in the scientific fields, where God’s existence is not a factor one way or another.  You can’t say that for Christian science, the Bible is the foundational factor.  But I’m guessing that few scientists (other than Christian) would claim or agree that the world was created in six literal and actual days.  Where does that come from?  Oh yah, the Bible.

Well John, all I can say is, “my bad.”  I misspoke when I said that there was no science back in early historic days.  We could probably say though, that it (science back then) was very primitive.  In looking up the definition of “science” on the internet, the first definition I came to was, “a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws.”  I don’t know if that is what primitives were doing when they learned that wood floats in water better than rocks, but I think you know what I was getting at when I made my comment about primitives and science.  We have come a long way since the time of the ancients.  I doubt that the ancients’ belief in a pseudo reality in which the gods of that reality interacted with the people on earth had anything to do with science, but rather with superstition.

You went to some length to explain why evolution is a dead end street.  I will agree with you, that there are a lot of kinks to work out of this theory.  I would imagine that evolutionary scientists will say the same.  And it may even take hundreds of years to get it all figured out.  But it still seems to be the best hope and the best direction that today’s scientists want to pursue as to dating the age of the earth and the origins of life.  It seems to have more in favor of it than what can be found against it.  You may disagree with that, but with the comments you have made in this post, as well as other posts, it seems like you present very little to discredit evolution.  Volumes and volumes have been written, and years and years of research have been done to support evolution.  So it is hard for me to agree with your premise.  I don’t claim to be a scientist of any kind so you can fire away at me at will.  My disagreement with you comes at a different level.

But now, what about the science that you support. You are suggesting that on the first day some ten thousand years ago, God said abracadabra, and instantaneously (within a day) there was light.  On another day, God said abracadabra, and instantaneously there were all the sea creatures and birds of the air.  On another day God said, abracadabra, and within that single day all the earth creatures including humans beings were brought into existence in their present forms.  Within a total of six literal days all that exists was magically brought into existence.

Wow, the renown scientists of the world are going to jump on that theory.  That’s not what you could even call science.  Do you really think there are no holes in your theory?  Scientists would have a heyday finding fault, if they would even consider your theory.  You say there is fault with the theory of evolution, but none with your theory?  Come on John.  Listen to yourself.

I’m not sure what you are doing as to your own scientific endeavors.  It sounds like your scientific ambition is to disprove evolution, rather than to prove Biblical creation.  It doesn’t take science to prove or support God saying, “Let the earth produce all the animals of the earth, including human beings,” and it’s done in a single day.  That’s religion, not science and has nothing to do with science.  So should it be any wonder that scientists reject your theory?    

Perhaps this is why, in part, other Christian realities make more sense, such as the Bible’s creation account being myth or fable.  It leaves space for God being the creator God and yet let’s science unravel the “how” of how he did it. And along the way to gain many valuable insights for the good of humanity.   I’m sorry John, you haven’t convinced me yet, and I doubt that you come close to convincing the scientists of today, other than so-called Christian scientists.

Hi again, John.  I hope I don’t come off as mean spirited toward you.  I know I have blogged, either on this site or on others, and have given the impression that I don’t like those I’m blogging with.   Please don’t get that impression of me.  If I sound caustic, it may be toward aspects of the Christian faith, but not toward individuals.  I do appreciate your willingness to debate, even argue.  I’m sure, for you, like me, it helps to clarify some of your own thoughts.  

I have heard you suggest to others, and now me, that it is those who know the least about evolution that seem to grab on to it most firmly.  But it also seems to be the opposite at the same time.  Those who know the most about it (the scientists) who also hold most firmly to it.  And as I’ve suggested before, even though the evolutionary scientists would admit problems with evolutionary theory, they see it as much more viable than the other theories that are in the arena, including Biblical creation.  That has more problems than you can shake a stick at.  In your last response, you said, “evidence is required beyond coincidence and beyond conjecture to support evolution.”  What evidence beyond coincidence and beyond conjecture  is there to support that the whole universe, and our world and its inhabitants were all created in a span of six single days?  That, to me, sounds like the impossible theory.  I’d like to sit in while a Christian scientist explains this to a group of secular scientists.

The arguments that you give for acknowledging the Christian faith are similar or the same as those given for acknowledging the truth and reliability of many other religions including the Mormon religion (and they believe in a friendly universe).  In fact, most religions will make claims for the miraculous and to verify those claims they all maintain their writings are inspired by God, and therefore completely trustworthy. And they too (the Mormons for example) claim witnesses to validate the truthfulness of their religion.  And all religions would assert that their God is not bound by the normal limitations that he has placed on the natural order.  Therefore the miracles of their religion should be considered as trustworthy and true. As absurd as the miracles of other religions may sound, they are no more absurd than the miracles of Christianity, such as a six day creation. So how does on decide which religion is the one true religion?  Thanks for your listening ear.

Hi again, John.  I’m sorry if we seem to be keeping Edwin out of the loop in our dialog.  It might be interesting to know some of his thoughts.

Your last response, John, was quite lengthy and got off target, at least from the topic of evolution.  Maybe that wasn’t really the main topic.  Maybe the topic or question is  “what is truth?”  And that can have to do with evolution versus Biblical creation or which religion, if any represents truth best.  Maybe this is where Edwin’s perspective might be interesting, in regard to his original article in the Banner.  

As to evolution or not, I have not tried to imply that evolutionary theory has all the answers or doesn’t have problems of its own.  As you have pointed out, it seems as though there are many problems. But I do think that today’s scientists would still say, problems or not, evolution (including macro evolution) offers the most reasonable and logical explanation to the age of the earth and the origin and development of life.  And eventually answers will be forthcoming to your criticisms, if many of them have not already been answered.  To scientists today, evolution is the much more logical approach, than whatever other explanations can be offered up, including a literal understanding of Biblical creation.  As to origins my bet rides with the scientists of today.

But now to the crux of your last response.  It seems as though you are more concerned with finding the fault with other religions than pointing out the logic of Christianity.  Find fault with the opponent.  If fault can be found, then that leaves Christianity (especially Reformed Christianity) standing tall.  And of course, you would say there is no error in Christianity.  So I would like you to consider just one area of Reformed Christianity or what you might call Biblical Christianity.  That area has to do with the “election” (predestination unto salvation) of the saved.  And of course this really touches on the heart of Christianity.  It has to do with salvation in Jesus Christ, your only “comfort in life and in death.”

I hand it to Reformed Christians, historically they have taken the Bible very seriously, as you seem to do, as well.  Of course, that means you can’t ignore what it teaches or sweep its teachings under the carpet.  Hence, the teaching of Scripture on election is upheld and not denied in Reformed thought.  But the question of what does the Bible teach about election has been debated through the ages.  Does the Bible teach an infralapsarian or a supralapsarian perspective.  Does it teach only an election of the saved or also the election of the lost unto damnation, single predestination or double predestination.  Most today, even within the CRC, hold to an infralapsarian position, although the confessions are not altogether clear on that; it could go either way.  Consider the Canons of Dort, 3rd and 4th main point, arts. 1-5.  They seem to support the more severe view of election.

Double predestination (supralapsarians) dictates that not only the saved, but also the lost, were predestined from eternity past to their final state whether it be salvation or damnation, even in the mind of God.  Of course this means God never had a sense of love in Christ for the lost, in fact his only intention for the lost was eternal destruction. In fact, God created them for that very purpose (eternal damnation).  Therefore, there is no sincere offer by God of the gospel to those whom he has determined for eternal damnation in hell.

To verify this position, there needs to be Biblical support, which there is.  First, to gain God’s acceptance and love by one’s own effort, a person has to be perfectly good, an impossible standard to attain.  All have sinned and fallen short.  In fact it is impossible to please God by one’s own effort.  This is the first barrier that God has placed before humanity, a standard of absolute perfection, which cannot be attained.  Secondly to insure that this impossible standard is not met by humans, God has credited to every person the sin of Adam.  So even before birth, a person is a condemned sinner, condemned by God.  This is something that God has done, apart from human decision.  And then third, God has imputed the sinful nature of Adam to every human being.  By this sinful nature, given by God, it is impossible to live up to God’s standard from birth on.  In fact, according to the Bible, a person can’t help but to sin continually.  So God makes salvation for the majority of humanity (all, other than the elect) an impossibility. He does this by giving an impossible standard for people to achieve, also,  by crediting all of humanity with Adam’s sin even before birth, and also by imputing a sinful nature to all people so that they cannot help but  to sin and therefore meet with failure.  These are the actions of God.

In Romans 7, the apostle Paul talks about his struggle with sin, apart from Christ.  He paints more than a helpless picture, but even a desperate picture.  Although in his mind he knows what is right and good, he can’t do it.  He fails every time.  He has no power to do the good he knows he should do because of this sinful nature.  He concludes by saying what a miserable person he is, one whose life is dominated by sin and death.  He is describing here the human condition, the condition of all people who have had this sinful nature imputed to them by God.  

When Paul cries out, who will deliver me from this helpless condition, the answer is Jesus Christ.  Paul is in no way taking credit for his salvation or even for choosing Christ.  He is just thankful that God in Christ has chosen him for salvation.  He’s thanking God for his election in Christ.  Anything more, would be giving Paul himself credit for choosing Christ.  According to Reformed thought it’s the other way around, Christ always chooses us.  For those not chosen by God’s electing love, they remain destined for destruction by which God’s has insured their lost estate and damnation. It’s really hard to understand why God would blame humans for their sin and hold them accountable, when God is the one who has insured that they could do nothing but fail.  Logic says that God is the one at fault.

So Christianity has a God who has predetermined that the majority of the human race will go to hell for eternity.  Reformed Christians talk about God determining not only the ends but also the means to accomplish the ends. And now you see how God has determined both in regard to the lost.  This is the picture of God that the Bible portrays to the world.  Is this the desirable picture of God that the Bible holds up to the world?  Is this what we mean when Christians talk endlessly about the love of God.  Obviously the love of God in Christ is only for those whom God has predestined for salvation from before the beginning of time and not for the majority of the human race.

Of course when a person, especially one who is damned by God to hell for eternity, protests his plight the apostle Paul gives this answer.  “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”  No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”  When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?  In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who were made for destruction.”
 (Romans 9:19-22)

You may claim that when Scripture is taken as a whole, we get a different picture.  But this points out either a blaring inconsistency in the Bible’s teaching or shows that the apostle Paul was not on the same page as other Bible writers.  We know he did have disagreements with Peter, and probably with most of Christendom today. This certainly says something as to how one should understand the inspiration of the Bible.

The Bible’s inconsistent teaching about salvation in Christ is so glaring that it doesn’t sound any better than other religions, in fact it sounds far worse.  So now I wonder if your last response in this blog about the failure of other religions really holds any water.  Maybe it is time to start evaluating the teachings of the Bible, as Edwin suggests.  Sorry about the length of this comment, but I could have said a lot more.

Thanks, John, for your comments.  I think you fall way short in your logic.  Your analogy of the father entrusting his son with his money falls way short of the picture of God’s love or discipline. Your story assumes that the son has the ability and freewill to either obey or disobey his father.  But the fact is, the son does not have the ability or free will to obey him.  That is the point of the apostle Paul’s recounting of his own helpless condition and enslavement to sin.  

 A more faithful characterization is the story of a father who tells his son to get upstairs to his bedroom after the father has broken the son’s arms and legs, and now the son has no ability to get upstairs.  And so the father, because of the son’s disobedience, takes him out behind the woodshed and beats him unmercifully for his disobedience.  He couldn’t obey his father, even if he knew he should, because his father has disabled him.  He was disabled by the father by imputing to his son a sinful nature (broken legs) by which he was not able to obey, as well as crediting him with Adam’s sin (broken arms) and giving him an impossible standard to achieve, absolute perfect obedience.  But you are saying it is still the son’s fault for disobeying his father, and he is responsible for not doing what he had no ability to do.

You see your analogy does not measure up in the least to what Paul describes in the Bible.  Are you writing your own infallible Bible now?

But now for an analogy of God’s electing purposes. I think you would admit the Bible teaches a limited atonement.   Here’s the analogy.  A father takes his five young sons out fishing in a lake.  The boys all get rambunctious and tip the boat over.  Boys will be boys.  They all were at fault.  The problem, though, is that none of the sons can swim.  But the father is an excellent swimmer and has many medals in life saving.  But to the surprise of those watching on shore, the father saves only two of the sons and leaves the other three to drown.  He could have saved all five if he had wanted to but chose only to save two.  That’s the limited atonement of election.  This is neither love nor justice.  In a court of law in our land the father would never be pardoned.  But I’m guessing you will say that God’s love and justice isn’t measured by our courts and we shouldn’t question him. But logic to anyone’s thinking today, would say something is rotten in Denmark.  If we are God’s image bearers, is this the kind of love we are to display to those who surround us?

You see, it is this teaching in the Bible, that makes the Bible either inconsistent, illogical, or abhorrent.  But Christians can hide this teaching, that is central to the Bible's teaching of salvation, by continually ranting that God is love and wants everyone to be saved.  Really?  Or are you going to point me to a Biblical inconsistency? 

Thank you John for your comments.  You have helped to clear some things up.  I see you are not a five point Calvinist, so you should have difficulty signing the form of subscription for the CRC.  I think that might have been one of your criticisms of Edwin Walhout.  You obviously don’t believe in total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, probably even “irresistible grace.” And you obviously can’t accept all the statements in the Canons of Dort.

From what you say, it sounds like a person can both accept or decline on God’s offer of grace.  He’s almost totally depraved but not quite.  Your analogy of the father entrusting the son with his money, as well as your comments in this last response completely support a depraved person, but not ”totally depraved,” maybe just a bad person. Not a Reformed understanding of total depravity.  As to “unconditional election”, again you indicate that a person’s acceptance by God is based on the condition of his willing acceptance of God’s offer.  So you see (according to you), there is a condition that God looks for in an individual before accepting that person into his kingdom. That’s conditional, and maybe you can’t even call it election.  God chooses those who choose him?  Sorry John.  You are way off base as to Calvinistic leanings.  As to “limited atonement”, your perspective is that God’s salvation is only limited to those who choose God first.  In other words it’s an unlimited atonement. The offer is made to all, and now all can either respond or not.  Any and all can make their way to God.  You sound more like a Freewill Baptist than Reformed.  I laud you for taking such a position while claiming to be Reformed.  But in your heart, you’re obviously not Reformed.

When Paul describes his enslavement to sin in Romans 7, he is not describing a person who can walk away from his enslavement.  He’s a SLAVE, and a slave does not have walking rights, as you suggest. You say in your last response, “You can accept, trust and obey.”  That’s definitely not Paul is saying.  You misrepresent him terribly. His freedom from slavery came to him when God chose him in Christ. Don’t you remember his Damascus road experience?  That was not Paul coming willingly to Christ.

So thank you, John.  You cleared some things up for me.  One, you are not a Calvinist or Reformed.  From previous articles that you have written, I thought you were, but maybe I’m mistaken.  You obviously don’t like the inconsistencies that are taught in the Bible either.  I would gather that you don’t much like Jesus’ teaching regarding salvation by works either.  Jesus obviously teaches that the distinction between those who go to heaven and those who go to hell is a matter of works.  The sheep are accepted into the Father’s kingdom and the goats are consigned to everlasting anguish in hell.    His parable of the talents also support a salvation based on works, what we do with our talents.  His story of the good Samaritan, again supports acceptance by God based on works.  Even the parable of the wayward son demonstrates the father’s forgiveness based on the son’s willing return. In fact the majority of Jesus’ teaching shows that acceptance with God is based on the mark we leave, whether good or bad.  Again this just shows the inconsistencies of the Bible’s teaching. Paul’s teaching does not match what Jesus taught And to reconcile these differences with each other, Christians have to do a lot of manipulation.

But all this comes back full circle to the inspiration of the Bible.  How do you reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible and call them all inspired by God.  And of course, Christians have been throwing out different parts of the Bible or manipulating them to say what they want from before the time of Christ right up to the present.  Hence the varieties of denominations.  How can one even think (with any integrity) that the Holy Spirit will lead his church in all truth?  So what makes the Christian faith the one true faith?  And what makes you think that God really created all there is, including our world when the physical evidence for your position is lacking?  Thanks again for your listening ear.

Hi, once again, John, and whoever else may be listening in.  I apologize for an error I made.  When I logged on to this site just now, it was to make a correction that I realized I had made. I was in a rush to get somewhere.  In the next to last sentence of my last response, I said, “And what makes you think that God really created all there is, including our world ((all in six literal days)) when the physical evidence for your position is lacking?”  I meant to add the five words in brackets.  I do believe that God is the creator God and that he works within the natural laws that he has established.  That’s the reason scientists can do science.  If God worked outside of his established laws, as you suggest, then there is no need for science.  Even conclusive evidence would prove nothing, and the study of origins and the age of earth would be meaningless. So why are young earth scientists trying to disprove evolution?  They believe in a literal Biblical creation apart from any evidence.

You still surprise me.  You seem to cast a lot of suspicion on doctrine.  You say, “The question is:  do you love God?  If you love God, then you know you belong to Him, that God loves you, and you know that you want to do what God desires.”  Do  you really believe that?  The Muslim will make that same statement, as well as the Mormon, the Hindu, the Jew, and myself, as well.  I guess we all fit into the category of being God’s children.  But I’m guessing that your statement needs some clarification.  You probably mean, if you love the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, inferred in the Bible, and believe in Christ’s atoning sacrifice, and now live in grateful obedience to him then you belong to him.  You see John, it’s your theology or doctrine that defines your belief system and where you stand in life and death in regard to him.  Reformed Christians have said it is very important what we believe, even in the details.  That’s why the Reformed Churches and it’s members subscribe to the three forms of unity, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Belgic Confession, and the Canons of Dort.  It’s those three confessions and what they teach that binds all these members together, giving them a single voice.  You see, to some, what a Reformed Christian believes is very important to the body as a whole.  But I guess you are saying, no it’s not really that important.

Reformed Christians have said, when it comes to salvation, it is all a credit to God, completely.  We can’t even add our faith, for faith comes from God.  Human kind stands at complete odds with God.  If the Holy Spirit doesn’t enable a person to believe, he will definitely not respond to the gospel.  If the Holy Spirit does enable as person to respond in faith, then he will definitely respond.  There is no ifs, ands, or buts.  There are no exceptions, because God will not fail to accomplish his purposes, according to Reformed teaching.  God’s purposes in electing a people to himself and in determining the damnation of the rest of humanity is set in stone.  God will not waiver or change his mind.  This sovereignty is a cornerstone of Reformed faith.

Doctrine is at the heart of Reformed ministry training.  Reformed seminaries make theological study the cornerstone of their curriculum.  The difference between “reformed thinking and free-willism is not as big as we make it?”  Are you kidding?  It’s huge.  One says God is sovereign in everything, especially salvation, the other gives much credit to human will.

But I do believe that you probably give more credit to doctrine than what you are letting on.   Otherwise, why would you be arguing so vehemently about differences of opinion as to how God created the world.  And why would you write articles about how retired ministers that don’t conform to our confessions should be disciplined?   

But then if what the Bible teaches (doctrine) isn’t that important, then why make such a big deal about creation versus evolution?  If God does it one way or another, why split hairs?  Edwin, along with many others, including myself, are not trying to take away from the grandeur of God. He gets all the credit. And if (as you say,) “you love God, then you know you belong to Him,” why split hairs over doctrine?  Edwin and I are both well within the ballpark.  I think I hear you speaking out of two sides of your mouth.

Hi John and Edwin, as well as others.  Good to hear your latest contribution Edwin.  You make an interesting distinction, whether speaking or thinking from a personal perspective or from an official capacity as a minister in the CRC.  Kind of like the pope in the Roman Catholic church when he speaks ex cathedra.  I’ll have to give that some thought.  Certainly I’ve allowed my personal thoughts to flow out into the public arena.  But by speaking out of two sides on one’s mouth, or from two sides of the fence, I question a person’s integrity to one’s true self.

The issue of Biblical creation versus evolution has been an eye opener for me.  But place that issue alongside a host of other issues that has come to the forefront in CRC history over the years and you realize that what was once considered the sure teaching of Scripture in the past is no longer the sure teaching.  In the not too distance past, marital divorce was totally forbidden except for very few exceptions, and then anyone divorced was forbidden from church office and often from even serving in any capacity.  Today, divorce is seldom even noticed.  Was the Holy Spirit leading in truth in the past on this issue or is he presently?  And the list of areas of concern could go on to a very large list.  Today’s position on divorce if held 50 years ago would be cause for discipline or excommunication.  Was the Holy Spirit leading in truth then, or now?  Six day creation or evolution.  Was the Holy Spirit leading in the past to take a literal approach to Genesis, but what about now when scientific evidence is leading toward evolution and more of a mythical understanding of Genesis?  As John might suggest, the support of evolution is just opening up a can of worms.

To my understanding the Bible sends some very contradictory messages, which makes me question how do we understand the inspiration of Scripture when the Bible doesn’t always agree with itself.

As I suggested to John, Jesus taught a whole new perspective from what was being taught among the Jews of his day.  When the Jews were thinking that formal rites and rituals could make them right with God, Jesus basically said, you put too much stock in these things.  What really matters is how you live your life, a life that demonstrates love for God and neighbor, that is what brings pleasure to God.  This is what was taught in nearly all of Jesus’ stories and parables, such as the separation of the goats from the sheep, the story of the good Samaritan, the parable of the talents, and on and on. It was good works that was the deciding factor in separating the sheep from the goats.  Did faith play a part in Jesus’ teaching?  Of course it did, but it was a faith that believed how I lived my life would make a difference in God’s disposition. “As you did it to the least one of these you do it unto me.”  Over and over again Jesus taught a life of servanthood to others, and Jesus demonstrated such a life.

Paul on the other hand taught quite a different message.  Our actions count for nothing in gaining God’s salvation and favor.  People are helpless creatures bound only to win God’s disapproval.  People are dead in sin.  Don’t count on winning any points with God by your own actions.  They are only filthy rags. And beside, one sin, was enough to condemn you for eternity.  So one’s object of faith is not in a life of serving others and doing good, but now (in Paul’s teaching) it’s the object or person of Jesus Christ who has done it all for you.  Sure you still want to do good, but Paul says you can’t do it.  All you can do in your own effort is sin, and sin miserably, you’re a total failure.  I don’t hear Jesus saying that.  He’s saying ritual counts for nothing, but a life of service is everything.  Check out Jesus’ own teaching and example and you will see this is Jesus’ emphasis.

There’s a contradiction here.  You can try to harmonize these two teachings (Jesus and Paul), like John Z has shown.  But remember, John, the object of faith was different for Jesus than it was for Paul.  Martin Luther wanted the book of James removed from the Bible.  His frustration was not that there was too little talk of faith in James, but rather that faith was not directed toward Jesus Christ but more toward works.  James didn’t have a Pauline emphasis, as far as Luther was concerned.  Luther thought James was saying that if you lived a good life seeking to please God then you would have God’s favor. James stood with Jesus rather than Paul.  You can be assured (trust/faith) if you were trying to please God, that he would be happy with you.  Your faith influences your actions and vice versa.  That didn’t sit well with Luther because Christ wasn’t the focal point of faith, but works were.

So you see, you can talk about faith all you want.  “Just have faith.”  But what is the object of your faith.  Jesus taught: by trusting a life of service, God will separate you from the goats.  Paul taught that your works count for nothing so trust completely in Christ and works will follow (but they don’t count for anything, not even reward in heaven).

So you see it’s not just our inconsistencies as to how we interpret the Bible, but also the inconsistencies within the Bible itself (and they are glaring).  These make me question the doctrine of the inspiration of the Bible or at least how we understand inspiration.  I like what Jesus teaches. So does that make me a Christian.  Some would say yes (Thomas Jefferson) and some would say no.  How far are we allowed to go before we get pushed out of the barn yard.  Would Jesus himself get pushed out because he was not Pauline?  Does Paul have more authority than Jesus in order to change his emphasis. Unless you can synchronize what Jesus taught with what Paul taught then for many denominations (including the CRC) you’re out.  I may be extreme, but with Edwin I think until we make some changes to become more inclusive or change some our doctrinal ways of thinking, a narrow Christianity may have a hard time making it down the road.  And holding to a six day literal creation with no evidence to support it doesn’t help.  Also espousing a God who has, from eternity past, determined the eternal damnation of the majority of human kind while the gospel of grace is only intended for the few, doesn’t bode well for the Christian faith either.

I agree Edwin, our (John and I) arguments sound like an endeavor in futility.  But by taking a different point of view from John it always ends up the same.  John, you may accuse me of extended arguments but look at your arguments against evolution on this website and others, and how many books have you written?  And you haven’t budged from the beginning, and the same is true with other arguments you have gotten into.  I enjoy the debate, and I think our discussions are having little impact on anyone, so I don’t get bent out of shape over any of it, nor should anyone else.  If one doesn’t like the debate, then don’t read it.

Hey John, it’s not always easy to get thoughts put into words.  Sometimes I’m in such a hurry to get something on paper that I step on my tail in the process. And afterward, I wonder if I should have made a particular comment differently.  I think that’s why I go to extremes in making a simple statement. I appreciate your willingness to listen as well as to show some soft edges in your thinking.

But let me say something about your comment in regard to Reformed and Baptist thinking.  From some of your comments elsewhere, I remember you talking about the form of subscription that office bearers sign in the CRC, pledging their allegiance to the three forms of unity. So I’m guessing you are a CRCer.  Now I realize there are a multitude of shades within Baptist denominations.  If we think there is variety in the Reformed denominations, we have nothing on the Baptists.  They have a truckload of them.  But by a very big margin, they tend to be Arminian.  Again, the first definition that my online dictionary gives for Arminianism is, “the doctrinal teachings of Jacobus Arminius or his followers, especially the doctrine that Christ died for all people and not only for the elect.”  There is a Reformed Baptist denomination that would not fall for Arminius’s teaching. Other than that most Baptists are Arminian.  And Calvin is a naughty word.  Now you must realize that the Canons of Dort were formulated to contest vigorously such a view.  And it’s the Canons of Dort that is one of the CRC’s three forms of unity.  This is what officebearers subscribe to, and I’m guessing you, as well.  It has never been thought to be a small difference when it came to the Reformed teachings and the Baptists’, even though many CRCers seek out a Baptist church when they are away on vacation.  Do you ever wonder why that might be?  For the most part, it’s because Baptists tend to be much more experiential in their expressions of faith and worship.  The emphasis is on my experience (my faith) unlike the Reformed who emphasizes what God has done.  Enough of that.

I want to come back to Jesus and Paul.  Thanks for your admission of seeing a difference of emphasis between the two.  Of course you go on to say they are reconciled to each other in the writings of James and John.  So most Christians would say (and perhaps you) that there is only an apparent contradiction.  These two apparent ways of viewing salvation are not really so different, and it only takes a James and John to bring them together into a cohesive whole.  But Luther didn’t quite see it that way when it came to James.  For Luther, there just wasn’t enough of Paul in James’ letter, in fact for Luther James went counter to Paul, and his letter was not worthy of being included in the Bible.  Good thing he didn’t have to sign the Reformed form of subscription.  I hope you realize that the difference of emphasis between Jesus and Paul was not small.  This is where most Christians don’t scrutinize their own beliefs to any great degree.  Most acknowledge the truth of the Bible on a Sunday School education or less, especially if they have just gone forward at a Billy Graham crusade.  And yet this (they claim) is the most important influence in their whole life.

I hope you know how radical the difference is between Paul and Jesus.  By far the greatest emphasis for Jesus is living a life of service to God and neighbor.  In the vast majority, it is what a person has done to glorify God and serve his neighbor that separates a person from going to heaven or hell.  And it’s not that every single thing has to be done with God in one’s mind.  “As you have done this unto one of the least of these, you have done it to me.”  And Jesus doesn’t even call for perfection.  Sure faith is involved.  How could anyone serve his neighbor without having faith that God is pleased with such service.  Unless you are Paul or a Pauline.
Paul tells his readers that works count for nothing.  Everyone is deserving of eternal damnation and is an abomination to God. One sin, not just an inclination to sin, will sentence you to hell.  Even the sin of Adam, credited to all, is enough to (and will) damn you for eternity. Paul, in his discourse on Adam, points out that everyone following Adam up through Moses, when the law was given, was condemned to die.  Why did they all die?  Because they were guilty of Adam’s sin, and not because of their own sin (how could they know without the law?).  Everyone is evil and deserves damnation in Paul’s mind.  I don’t hear this in Jesus’ teaching.  In fact Jesus teaches you can and should do good and in so doing you win God’s favor.  Paul says, no, no!  You can’t do good even if you want to because everyone is helplessly controlled by sin.  Is this really how God looks at us?

Common sense says, tells me to stick to Jesus’ teaching.  Does God really think everyone is so miserable that they deserve an eternity in hell where there will be gnashing of teeth?  Common sense tells me that people were created as people, not as gods with the perfections of God.  God is all knowing, yet he doesn’t expect people to be like him as to knowledge or intellect.  God may be perfectly holy but does he really expect the same degree of holiness from his creatures?  Sure he wants us to be good, but perfectly good?  He did give us a free will, and with a free will, bad choices are bound to be make at times.  And don’t people in general, do a fair amount of good?  I don’t personally know anyone who has murdered another person, and I know very few who have stolen.  But I do know a lot of people that have been kind and loving toward me, whether in the church or outside.  My wife and I are part of a walking group (twice a week) and I doubt that many of them would claim to be Christian (two are atheists).  Yet, when my wife was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer some six months ago, this group along with many other neighbors have reached out and sacrificed for us in so many ways. (Her cancer is already in remission.)  The point is, the great majority of people I know get high grade for goodness.  Their goodness far outweighs their evil.  Common sense tells me that God will look at people and judge their entire life.  To me it sounds like a Jesus emphasis, and he encourages us to live loving and caring lives.  A teacher will judge a student by his/her effort throughout the course.  The student many not get 100%, but he still will likely get an A, B, C, or D, all passing grades.  But according to Paul, God only gives out F’s, no chance for anyone apart from perfection, which is impossible.  If we were to follow the example of God, according to Paul, instead of giving our children a kiss at night and tell them we love them, we would instead tell them how bad they are and that they deserve nothing but damnation.  

On top of this, in Paul’s thought, God never had a purpose to save all, but his intent was to save the chosen few and send the rest into eternal damnation.

In contrast, Jesus’ emphasis was to encourage goodness in those he taught, even self sacrificing goodness or a life of service.  And with attempting such a life, God would be pleased.  Perfection?  You always set the goal at perfection, even if you don’t reach it. But you’re not an utter failure if you don’t reach it.  Makes sense to me.

This is no small difference between Paul and Jesus.  But if I’m not mistaken, the Bible teaches that it was Jesus, who is God, who came to earth to show us the way.   Now it sounds like Paul is trying to correct Jesus, or that Jesus didn’t get the whole story right.  Who am I to argue with God, or to tell him, he got it wrong.  It certainly sounds like an inconsistency to me.

Oh, thanks for the additional comment, that on the other side of grace, Paul calls Christians to sin no more.  Of course it’s on the other side of grace, or after having been chosen in Christ by God.  On the forward side it doesn’t really matter, does it, because for most, they’re going to hell anyway, and God takes no pleasure in one’s attempt to do good.  Again, that’s Paul, not Jesus.

This gets difficult when trying to respond to two people that seem to hold somewhat different positions.  I appreciate your input and distinctions.  Edwin, you’re right when you categorize me as the flaming liberal (I know, you didn’t quite say that).  In my responses I’ve wanted to show that from within the Christian faith (especially the Reformed faith) that there are inconsistencies.  It’s arguing from within a prepsuppositional apologetic the inconsistencies or unreasonableness of the Christian religion. But if I disregard the Christian presuppositions then that pretty much ends the debate right there.  It would be like a Hindu arguing with a Christian.  You can’t argue two completely different religions and expect to get anywhere.

As I understand the Christian religion (and I think there is no other way to understand it), Christianity is different from all other religions.  The difference is that Jesus, who is God in the fullest sense, came to earth from heaven to pay the supreme price for sin.  It is only in Jesus that there is salvation and apart from him, there is no salvation.  He is the propitiation by which he appeased the wrath of God against sinners.  And since all people are sinners (even come in the world as sinners) all are deserving of eternal damnation. Apart from Jesus and his payment for sin all are destined for hell.  No other religion offers such a perspective on the condition of the human race or on such a plan for the salvation of people.  It is unique.  Jesus is the cornerstone, not only by his example, but especially by who he is and  what he has done to accomplish salvation, making payment for sin.  Apart from Christ’s saving work all are lost, because all are sinners. The good a person does counts for nothing because sin negates any good a person may have thought he has done.

I haven’t really heard too much from either John or Edwin on this central teaching of Christianity.  It is only by faith in this saving work of Christ, that a person can experience salvation in the present and for eternity.  And even this faith comes from God, given only to the elect. (Side note: Arminians believe that Jesus came for the salvation of all and all can respond.)  This is the faith and rescue that the apostle Paul speaks about when he describes his struggle with sin.  This is the faith that Paul agues for in his letters.  It is a specific faith with a specific object.  And there is no other faith that will save. “There is no other name under heaven...”  This is the heart of Christianity.

John, you have talked a lot about God, but not so much about Jesus, and you have said a lot about faith, but not the object of faith.  And Edwin, although you seem to acknowledge Jesus as fully God, and miraculously taking on a human nature, you don’t say much about this necessary propitiation made by Jesus or the helpless state of human kind.

Once again about “faith,” John.  “Just have faith and you will be ok.”  That’s what a lot of people might say.  But not Paul.  But, in contrast to Paul, when Jesus talked about faith the object of faith would change according to the situation.  When the author of Hebrews talks about faith, the object of faith varies.  “It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. Abel’s offering gave evidence that he was a righteous man, and God showed his approval of his gifts.”  The object of faith was the sufficiency of his offering to God (works).  No propitiation necessary.  By faith Noah built the ark.  By faith Abraham left his homeland.  None of these mention the propitiation of another, but trust that they were doing (what God asked of them).  They all believed they could please God.  Anyone who truly believes in God will trust that their attempts to please God (love for God and neighbor) will be accepted by him.  That’s not the faith Paul is talking about.  You don’t trust your efforts even with faith in God.  They won’t do it. Propitiation has to be made.  And once again Paul and Jesus are at odds.  Jesus says the difference between heaven and hell is in loving others, and by loving others you demonstrate your love for God.  And Jesus’ teaching was revolutionary, especially in the context of what the Jewish religion had become.  Paul’s addition is not just a new twist to what Jesus teaches, but different altogether.  I don’t know how to make myself any clearer.

It seems to me, whether you acknowledge Jesus as God or not, whether you acknowledge him as a prophet sent by God, or whether he was just very insightful into where the Jewish religion (which he was part of) had gone amuck, however you see him, his teaching was insightful in his context, as well as insightful for all people in any age. He taught we could please God.  It was his teaching and his insight into given situations that made him revolutionary.   It’s here that you will fault me to no end.  Paul came along and made an idol of Jesus, something I don’t think Jesus wanted for himself.  Jesus came to teach a new way, the way of love.  But now realize that many or most religions teach the same thing, perhaps with a different prophet.  It’s just that Jesus is the teacher par excellence, at least in my thinking.

Well, I see that another response has come in from John.  I'll send this as is, and then respond to the next responses later.  Wishing both of you health and happiness (God's rich blessings).

Now for a comment especially for you, Edwin.  Again, I appreciate your perspective.  And I agree that we have got off target.  I think the original article can easily lead into other areas, as it has seemed to have happened here.  I don’t expect either you, Edwin or John, to agree with me in the least.  That’s ok, but at least you will know where I’m coming from.  

I think all religions are manmade and are an attempt to explain the God who has revealed himself in creation.  Most religions are ancient and are archaic in many of their basic premises.  And certainly scientists today have a host of doubts when someone tells them that the earth, life and even human beings were all created in a matter of six days.  Not only do scientists have to defend themselves against the likes of Christians, but also Hindus, Muslims, Mormons and a host of other religions that have their own ideas on origins, because these other ideas of origins come from their inspired Scriptures just as Christians assert.  Like other ancient religions, Christianity has a central theme (just one of several)  of the wars of the gods (the creator God and the demigod, Satan) who are in constant battle from the beginning of time and will culminate at the end of time.   Also, like the many other religions, Christianity’s God acts outside of the created order and laws (such as with creation and a multitude of other miracles).  

I think that creation tells us enough about God that I can stand in awe of him and desire to honor him with my life.  And when someone as insightful as Jesus appears on the scene, it is cause enough to stand up and listen.  In the fact that Jesus’ teachings makes so much sense, I could easily feel I’m a follower of Jesus, myself.  But it would be very difficult to feel the same for Paul, who seems to have a very different perspective and emphasis on God and finding acceptance with him.

Also the personal nature that Christians portray God having with Christians raises flags for me.  Prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit are the impetuses for such thoughts of a personal God. They both are very subjective.  When someone asks, what would Jesus want me to do, what they really mean is what do “I think” Jesus would want me to do, or what do I want Jesus to tell me to do in any given situation.  The Holy Spirit can be thought to have led people and groups in a thousand different directions.  And yet the Holy Spirit leads in all truth.  I wonder if looking for the Spirit’s voice is no different than let your conscience be your guide.  As to prayer, a person can feel that in a given situation God has answered their prayers (healing from cancer) but at the same time a hundred other Christians pray for the same but never recover.  Then there is all kinds of rationalizing, as to the answers we get in regard to prayer, even though Jesus taught on more than one occasion that we could pray for anything we want and we will be given what we prayed for. I don’t think that the creation reveals these things but from the beginning of time people have been crying out to the gods with no more success than Christians.  Maybe having a personal God is part of the myth of made up religions.  Does God care for his creation?  In my mind, definitely. He has brought it into existence in one way or another and preserves it wonderfully.  Why would I doubt his care of his world.  But a personal relationship?

So you see how easily questions (or doubts) about creation and evolution can lead to other areas of concern?  Or maybe, more than likely, I’m not very disciplined in staying on track.

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Hear, hear Edwin.  I like your comments that direct us toward the advances and progress that are being made in history.  There may be plenty of evil, but culturally and politically our societies are making progress.  I can’t tell you the name of the project or the authors, but recently a research project pointed out that today there are many less homicides per capita committed than in the past decades or centuries. 

It may not seem it, but if we focus on the negative we will not see or appreciate the good.  Christianity tends to focus on the sin of a society and individuals; we are part of a fallen world.  Sin will only increase until God intervenes.  So it’s a difficult thing to see and appreciate the good that is taking place outside the narrow confines of the church.  Christian theology tends to belittle the good, with many Christians longing for the good old days and belittling the progress being made in the areas of science, technology and cultural growth.  Even Christian evangelism tends to point toward the negative.  The good of the gospel cannot be recognized until the evil is first recognized, especially personally, and confessed.  So there is no good news until the bad is recognized.  Christians are very good at pointing the evil.  And of course, Paul is one of the greatest contributors to this negativity (total depravity).

The progress that you point out, Edwin, can be seen as the slow development of the human race (whether it takes hundreds of years or thousands, or more) It can be attributed to God and his mysterious intervention or to the long and slow process of evolution, also attributed to God.  But Christianity, on the whole, will have a difficult time acknowledging any progress, because to them the world is on its way to hell in a hand basket.

And thank you, Jolanda, for the reminders to be kind and to stay on target.  We love you.

Hi all.  Thanks, John, for pointing out, from Scripture, the bleakness of the human race, and you might as well include the creation that groans along with humanity (according to Paul).  Humanity, culture and all of creation is in one sad state according to Scripture.  And that is so often the way Christians look at culture and humanity, with a negative lense.  And of course the Reformers do it best.  You might think that the Reformed cultural mandate would make a difference, but in reality that mandate is more a separatist movement, Christians separating from the world in order to say we can do it better.  Christian education (grades K - 12) looks at secular education as the playground of the devil.  So thinking they can do better, they build separatist Christian schools.  Is this what you call a Christian cultural mandate?  The Reformers build their separatist colleges and universities (Abraham Kuyper) and when the first ones they build become polluted they separate and build new ones again.  Christians form their own labor unions to separate from secular unions.  Science foundations separate from the secular so they can do true science.  And there are many other areas where Christians look negatively at their surrounding world and shake their finger.  That negative Christian perspective has left its influence on Western culture.  So when Edwin thinks we can see and encourage a sense of growing good in culture Christianity, especially the Reformed side says, you gotta be kidden; what glasses are you wearing?

Now, for your quotes from the Jewish Scriptures, regarding the total corruption of people.  Christianity has nicely piggybacked upon the Jewish religion, changing completely the character of the Jewish faith.  The Jewish experts and scholars from the time of Christ to present have never thought that Christianity has been any kind of culmination or fulfillment of their religion.  That is only the  Christian perception.  Jews have thought that Christians have defiled their own Scriptures by interpreting their Scriptures through the lens of the New Testament.  Now the Mormons believe that they can do the same thing to the Christian faith by rightly interpreting the Christian Bible through the lens of the book of Mormon.  And now Christians, like the Jews did, are crying foul play.  Piggyback upon piggyback.  I’m glad you included the quote from Jesus who includes himself among humanity as not being good, but credits God only as good.  I know you’ll will have something to say about that, but taken in the normal sense as Jesus said these words it supports the idea of Jesus as a insightful teacher, rather than the second person of the Trinity.

Now your final question.  Yes, I do know a fair share about Christianity, as that is my background from childhood on.  But now, I do not claim or follow any formal religion.  As I have said previously in this string of responses, I believe all religions are an attempt to explain the God who reveals himself in creation.  Religions go to great lengths to fill in what they think are the gaps and what God himself has failed to reveal to humankind in creation.  And most religions have an archaic foundation, including Christianity.  I try not to formulate a religion of my own or follow one.  If I did, I would probably be accused of formulating my own religion.  For me, creation is enough to tell me there is an incredible creator God and his preservation of the world is enough to tell me he cares for his world, including humanity (even me).  People come along in history (whether God has sent them, I don’t know) who are insightful and worth listening to.  But I realize that by saying too much, I may be shown to be wrong in the future, so perhaps the less said, the better.

At the risk of  overloading Edwin, and of getting Jolanda concerned, I am pasting a quote from Philip Westra from another thread on this topic, which Edwin has never responded to directly.   I would love to hear his response.

"About the article itself: 1) The author (Walhout) frames the whole thing in a reading of history that is simply inaccurate. Purgatory, indulgences, relics, etc. did not form the "backbone of Christianity" 500 years ago. When these became too important, the Reformation happened. To put creation, sin and salvation (think Apostles Creed) on par with these is simply wrong. 2) Apart from the concluding blurb from a synodical report, Walhout fails to mention anything about how the church has already been wrestling with these issues for the past 150 years. This includes the various ways Genesis 1 has been interpreted well before Darwin came along, the numerous scholars who have described Adam and Eve as the representative head of the human race, and the work of scholars today in wrestling with these questions (i.e. books and articles by the Haarsmas at Calvin College). 3) This article lacks helpful distinctions, such as the difference between evolution and naturalism, which help us ask and answer the important questions. 4) He does suggest evolutionary theory calls for a reworking of doctrines like creation, sin and salvation. About sin, he says, "We will have to find a much better way of understanding what sin is, where it comes from, and what its consequences are. Theologians will have to find a new way of articulating a truly biblical doctrine of sin and what effect it has on us." In other words, evolutionary theory will enable theologians to be true to the Bible in our theological articulations. The implication being that now we will really understand the Bible. I think the problems in this are obvious. I am a bit floored that anyone in this forum might suggest that sin and salvaiton are not core doctrines of the Christian faith. 5) The author makes a prediction about the future, a prophetic claim, if you will. If history teaches us anything, it teaches us that we humans with our best sciences cannot predict the future. Unless Walhout received this from God himself (including being from Scripture), he should not put this forward as something that will inevitably happen. Being a false prophet is a serious matter in the Bible."